• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

Status
Not open for further replies.

STINT47

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2020
Messages
863
Location
Nottingham
If the current BBC news team had been arround in the 1940's we would be speaking German.

It's always the worst possible news at the moment from them. Even when things go well like the vaccine they seem to be the bearer of doom. I tune out nowdays.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

kez19

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2020
Messages
2,204
Location
Dundee
If the current BBC news team had been arround in the 1940's we would be speaking German.

It's always the worst possible news at the moment from them. Even when things go well like the vaccine they seem to be the bearer of doom. I tune out nowdays.

I find it not just the BBC but you could throw in the whole UK media in general.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,927
Location
First Class
I find it not just the BBC but you could throw in the whole UK media in general.

Agreed, it’s the vast majority of the MSM (I generally try and avoid that term as it marks me as a far right conspiracy loon apparently). I know people, including close relatives, who get all of their information from BBC News and it’s like talking to somebody from another planet at times....
 

kez19

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2020
Messages
2,204
Location
Dundee
Agreed, it’s the vast majority of the MSM (I generally try and avoid that term as it marks me as a far right conspiracy loon apparently). I know people, including close relatives, who get all of their information from BBC News and it’s like talking to somebody from another planet at times....


I’m finding news more of a turn off even locally, I give up even if there is meant to be a cheer on terms of vaccines/vaccinations it’s just another kicking the can down the road, news for me is it’s becoming depressing to watch or listen too (or read) but media don’t care anyway it’s their thrill anyway the fear factor anything positive is hidden or not covered
 

DorkingMain

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2020
Messages
692
Location
London, UK
That's weird, I just turned on BBC and caught the end of their segment on this, and they seem to be saying this is going to cause serious problems for the vaccination programme and its not good news at all.

But obviously I don't trust their point of view....
That's because the COVID crisis has been an absolute boon for the media and they don't want to show any light at the end of the tunnel.
The prevalence of the South African mutation in the UK is incredibly low anyway and there's intensive testing to try and catch any cases of it. I believe in most areas this intensive testing picked up single digit case numbers. Some of AstraZeneca's original trials were in South Africa anyway, and there was no sign of concerns raised at that point.

As for the FT article and resulting panic - the study in question is not even completed yet - we have no idea how much the vaccine is ineffective against symptomatic COVID in these situations, but we do know that nobody out of the 2000 were hospitalised or died. Even with the median age of the study being fairly low (31) this does still suggest it's quite effective against severe COVID. Reductions in transmission obviously speed the process up, but if people aren't going to be hospitalised or die then COVID is nothing more than a nasty cold.
 
Last edited:

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,628
That's weird, I just turned on BBC and caught the end of their segment on this, and they seem to be saying this is going to cause serious problems for the vaccination programme and its not good news at all.

But obviously I don't trust their point of view....

The BBC haven't got a report up on their website yet, but the Financial Times version is here: https://www.ft.com/content/e9bbd4fe-e6bf-4383-bfd3-be64140a3f36 It doesn't sound good.

Key quote:
“A two-dose regimen of [the vaccine] did not show protection against mild-moderate Covid-19 due to [the South African variant]”, the study says, adding that efficacy against severe Covid-19, hospitalisations and deaths was not yet determined.

So hospitalisations and deaths are not measured yet (probably because of the small number and youth of the study participants - reportedly no one in the placebo group died), but on the measures for which there is data the vaccine is not effective.

If the vaccines are effective against transmission of the other variants the South African variant will probably soon be dominant everywhere.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,313
Location
Yorks
The BBC haven't got a report up on their website yet, but the Financial Times version is here: https://www.ft.com/content/e9bbd4fe-e6bf-4383-bfd3-be64140a3f36 It doesn't sound good.

Key quote:


So hospitalisations and deaths are not measured yet (probably because of the small number and youth of the study participants - reportedly no one in the placebo group died), but on the measures for which there is data the vaccine is not effective.

If the vaccines are effective against transmission of the other variants the South African variant will probably soon be dominant everywhere.

Then there is no point in trying to lockdown. The Government has no interest in closing the borders. whatever varient exists will get in, so we might as well just get on with it.
 

DorkingMain

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2020
Messages
692
Location
London, UK
The BBC haven't got a report up on their website yet, but the Financial Times version is here: https://www.ft.com/content/e9bbd4fe-e6bf-4383-bfd3-be64140a3f36 It doesn't sound good.

Key quote:


So hospitalisations and deaths are not measured yet (probably because of the small number and youth of the study participants - reportedly no one in the placebo group died), but on the measures for which there is data the vaccine is not effective.

If the vaccines are effective against transmission of the other variants the South African variant will probably soon be dominant everywhere.
The South African variant is only present in the UK in tiny numbers at the moment and there's intensive testing to try and trace its presence where it has turned up, which has returned very few cases.

The UK strain is now by far the most dominant
 

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
There's just no need for vaccinating the under 50's unless they have health conditions.
There is a need. The more people that are vaccinated, the less replication of the virus there will be. The less replication of the virus, the less chance of a mutation that evades the vaccines. The less chance of a mutation evading the vaccines, the better chance we all won't have to go through this mess again.

Absolutely push for relaxation of restrictions, before younger cohorts are vaccinated. But not offering or encouraging the younger generations to take the vaccine is storing up future problems.
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,628
The South African variant is only present in the UK in tiny numbers at the moment and there's intensive testing to try and trace its presence where it has turned up, which has returned very few cases.

The UK strain is now by far the most dominant

Tiny numbers that we've found so far. It's been here at least six weeks and is present in at least 9 separate areas with no links to international travel. It seems unlikely it is not fairly widespread in the community, and more cases are probably being imported every day. If vaccines don't work against it (though reports seem to say Pfizer is at least partially effective) cases are only going to go up when lockdown eventually ends.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,313
Location
Yorks
Tiny numbers that we've found so far. It's been here at least six weeks and is present in at least 9 separate areas with no links to international travel. It seems unlikely it is not fairly widespread in the community, and more cases are probably being imported every day. If vaccines don't work against it (though reports seem to say Pfizer is at least partially effective) cases are only going to go up when lockdown eventually ends.

Then it suggests that lockdown isn't a viable long term strategy. Better to dump it once and for all and face the consequences.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,292
Current scaremongering is based on it not preventing moderate illness.

The only thing that matters is hospitalisation and death.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,252
If a vaccine passport is required for travel abroad, perhaps this should be affixed to the actual passport, rather than devising a new document that would be more likely to be misused in domestic settings.
There is already an internationally recognised stand alone vaccine passport format called ICV - a.k.a. the WHO Yellow Book (all yellow paper and card) that has existed for decades (I have one in a drawer somewhere) so no need to devise anything new unless they want a parallel electronic record too. Conveniently sized at just smaller than passport size so you can tuck it inside.

Some business travellers have multiple passports to deal with the issues of having to send passports away for business visas thus needing another in the meantime and entry to certain countries is reliant on NOT having a visa for certain other countries thus necessitating 2 passports and in most cases the immunity for many jabs lasts longer than the travel passport hence a vaccine passport has to be separate from the physical one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Current scaremongering is based on it not preventing moderate illness.

The only thing that matters is hospitalisation and death.
Largely agreed. It looks like the issue is that Cytokine and specific T-cell response still works as expected with the SA variant but that antibody bonding with 484K mutations is much worse hence a delayed antibody response (by circa 2 days) so there are more symptomatic patients (it also means the patient is a potential very good super spreader for an extra 2 days) . The interesting question (not answered yet) is whether the body (post vaccination or previous older infection) when faced with a 484K variant just tries to use the existing antibodies but in far larger quantities (some evidence for this) or creates new antibodies or both!

The issue is that the version 1 vaccines may prevent transmission effectively for older variants and 501 as the only significant mutation then that sets a good path for removing the last of the restrictions but if the transmission reduction with additional 484k mutation (and to a lesser extent additional 451 and 472) variants is much lower and strains with those mutations take hold (which they probably will eventually as they are more transmissible the the 501 only Kent strain). Then later restriction lifting will be a bit slower as they can't bank on the transmission reduction.
 
Last edited:

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
10,492
Location
Cheshire
There is a need. The more people that are vaccinated, the less replication of the virus there will be. The less replication of the virus, the less chance of a mutation that evades the vaccines. The less chance of a mutation evading the vaccines, the better chance we all won't have to go through this mess again.

Absolutely push for relaxation of restrictions, before younger cohorts are vaccinated. But not offering or encouraging the younger generations to take the vaccine is storing up future problems.
Mutations will happen regardless of the amount of transmission, and in fact by artificially reducing it we can potentially give any new variants a foothold with they would otherwise not have. Consider this for a moment, when we started the initial lockdown the variant that was dominant was suppressed. Then as early as September (and probably earlier still) a mutation occurred that appears to have made the virus more transmittable & as the previous variant had been supressed, this gave the new variant an advantage it would otherwise would not have had.

Now that's not to say we shouldn't vaccinate, of course we should. But don't labour in the false hope that suppression will stop the evolution of the virus, because it won't. That is the stuff of political fantasy.
 

adc82140

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
3,402
Current scaremongering is based on it not preventing moderate illness.

The only thing that matters is hospitalisation and death.
Yes, agreed. Once again some people are shifting the goalposts. We are trying to prevent hospitalisations and deaths, which the vaccines will do. We are not trying to cure the symptoms of the common cold.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,927
Location
First Class
Yes, agreed. Once again some people are shifting the goalposts. We are trying to prevent hospitalisations and deaths, which the vaccines will do. We are not trying to cure the symptoms of the common cold.

I’ll be honest, I’m becoming a little concerned by all of this. We know there are still people calling for “zero covid” and increasingly it appears as though preventing hospitalisations and deaths isn’t good enough. The goalposts have indeed been shifted once again, and I think we’re now only one shift away from pursuing a “zero covid” strategy which would be absolutely disastrous.
 

adc82140

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
3,402
I’ll be honest, I’m becoming a little concerned by all of this. We know there are still people calling for “zero covid” and increasingly it appears as though preventing hospitalisations and deaths isn’t good enough. The goalposts have indeed been shifted once again, and I think we’re now only one shift away from pursuing a “zero covid” strategy which would be absolutely disastrous.
The noises coming from the Sunday political interviews are more encouraging, when Zahawi the vaccine minister said that all current vaccines will keep people out of hospital, which is the aim. I think there's some dawning of reality in government, and the locktivist element are starting to be outnumbered.
 

DustyBin

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2020
Messages
3,927
Location
First Class
The noises coming from the Sunday political interviews are more encouraging, when Zahawi the vaccine minister said that all current vaccines will keep people out of hospital, which is the aim. I think there's some dawning of reality in government, and the locktivist element are starting to be outnumbered.

Thanks, fingers crossed this continues!
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
8,005
Location
Surrey
Tiny numbers that we've found so far. It's been here at least six weeks and is present in at least 9 separate areas with no links to international travel. It seems unlikely it is not fairly widespread in the community, and more cases are probably being imported every day. If vaccines don't work against it (though reports seem to say Pfizer is at least partially effective) cases are only going to go up when lockdown eventually ends.
The Kent variant spiralled in lockdown 2 across Kent, SE London and Essex we are not seeing that with the SA variant currently so that suggests its transmissibility is being moderated by lockdown.
Current scaremongering is based on it not preventing moderate illness.

The only thing that matters is hospitalisation and death.
Agreed but the continuing absence of acceptable levels for both these metrics is a concern and reinforces my view that zero is the level and the govt aren't coming clean that the goalposts have been moved.
 

DorkingMain

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2020
Messages
692
Location
London, UK
Tiny numbers that we've found so far. It's been here at least six weeks and is present in at least 9 separate areas with no links to international travel. It seems unlikely it is not fairly widespread in the community, and more cases are probably being imported every day. If vaccines don't work against it (though reports seem to say Pfizer is at least partially effective) cases are only going to go up when lockdown eventually ends.
I believe quite a significant proportion of tests are genome-sequenced (I read 5-10%). If it there was a widespread presence of it, it would have been picked up.
 
Last edited:

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
8,005
Location
Surrey
I believe quite a significant proportion of tests are genome-sequenced (I read 5-10%). If it there was a widespread presence of it, it would have been picked up.
An organisation called COVID-19 Genomics UK produce a weekly surveillance report. Latest one released on 2/2 but dataset is nearly a month old and they had sampled 6.8% of tests that week. There is also a global reporting site here that is following evolution of the UK, SA and Brazil variants. On the latter the UK now has 118 detections it was 110 earlier in the week when Hancock answered questions in the house I recollect. The chart showing prevalence appears to be on a declining trend for UK as well especially when you consider case rates back in early January were very high. This to me feels like they got spooked with the UK variant and how that messed up there plans after coming out of lockdown 2 so they've thrown caution to the wind over the SA variant which was sensible but there needs to be a time limit. So given the genomic testing is running 3-4 weeks in arrears by the looks of it and the fact cases are down by 60% since early January to me means you can infer that we are not seeing high levels of transmission. That's not say that its not the dominant mutation now in circulation just that its not driven the rate up in lockdown that we saw with Kent variant so this has to be a positive.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,252
The noises coming from the Sunday political interviews are more encouraging, when Zahawi the vaccine minister said that all current vaccines will keep people out of hospital, which is the aim. I think there's some dawning of reality in government, and the locktivist element are starting to be outnumbered.
The vaccine will only keep people out of hospital if they have been vaccinated with a couple of week time lag for immunity to build!

The problem in the interim till there is a decent amount more vaccination is that the 484k (and other mutations to lesser extent) in addition to the 501Y variant are even more transmissible and will infect those who have already had older strain (given the data from Manaus and SA) creating a spike in case numbers hence the shortish term aim to keep pushing case numbers down in general and reduce the opportunity for the 484k etc. strain to start spreading much more rapidly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

An organisation called COVID-19 Genomics UK produce a weekly surveillance report. Latest one released on 2/2 but dataset is nearly a month old and they had sampled 6.8% of tests that week. There is also a global reporting site here that is following evolution of the UK, SA and Brazil variants. On the latter the UK now has 118 detections it was 110 earlier in the week when Hancock answered questions in the house I recollect. The chart showing prevalence appears to be on a declining trend for UK as well especially when you consider case rates back in early January were very high. This to me feels like they got spooked with the UK variant and how that messed up there plans after coming out of lockdown 2 so they've thrown caution to the wind over the SA variant which was sensible but there needs to be a time limit. So given the genomic testing is running 3-4 weeks in arrears by the looks of it and the fact cases are down by 60% since early January to me means you can infer that we are not seeing high levels of transmission. That's not say that its not the dominant mutation now in circulation just that its not driven the rate up in lockdown that we saw with Kent variant so this has to be a positive.
Doing the sequencing efficiently for a large number of samples take 3 weeks hence the 3 week lag. You can rush individual samples through in about 5 days but this is very inefficient so you lose overall testing capacity.
They know the 484k (in addition to 501Y) mutation strains spread more rapidly than the just 501Y ("Kent") and older strains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The Kent variant spiralled in lockdown 2 across Kent, SE London and Essex we are not seeing that with the SA variant currently so that suggests its transmissibility is being moderated by lockdown.

Agreed but the continuing absence of acceptable levels for both these metrics is a concern and reinforces my view that zero is the level and the govt aren't coming clean that the goalposts have been moved.
The Kent variant was first spotted in samples on 21st and 22nd September so it took 3 months to cause huge issues.

The government in public comms terms tends to work on the "Grand National" principle they only focus on getting over the next fence not all the ones after that.
 
Last edited:

Tezza1978

Member
Joined
22 May 2020
Messages
312
Location
Warrington
They know the 484k (in addition to 501Y) mutation strains spread more rapidly than the just 501Y ("Kent") and older strains.
That's incorrect I'm afraid. There is zero evidence that that the SA strain spreads faster or more readily than the Kent Strain. When it was discovered a flustered Hancock said "it could spread faster" but since then Vallance has said there is no evidence for this - and the fact that the Kent strain is so widespread, that it would be extremely unlikely that it was displaced by the SA strain as it isnt more infectious.

So more likely - it co-exists at a much lower level during the summer and onwards after that- similar to Spanish/Italian strain which was dominant last autumn but now at much lower levels than the Kent Strain. With boosters due by autumn this issue is being overhyped massively.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,431
Location
Taunton or Kent
This is not the first time the BBC, and probably other outlets too, have done this, but they're reporting on the Oxford vaccine assessment against the SA strain as if its content is nailed on, but it's been made clear the study hasn't yet been peer-reviewed:


Oxford-AstraZeneca's vaccine offers "minimal protection" against mild disease from the South Africa variant, scientists say early trials suggest.

A new study, not yet peer reviewed, involved about 2,000 people who were on average 31 years old.

But Prof Sarah Gilbert, Oxford lead vaccine developer, said vaccines should still protect against severe disease.

She added that developers were likely to have a modified jab by the autumn to combat the South Africa variant.

"We have a version with the South African spike sequence in the works," Prof Gilbert told the BBC's Andrew Marr.

More than 100 cases of the South Africa variant have been found in the UK.
 

takno

Verified Rep - Traksy
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,578
This is not the first time the BBC, and probably other outlets too, have done this, but they're reporting on the Oxford vaccine assessment against the SA strain as if its content is nailed on, but it's been made clear the study hasn't yet been peer-reviewed:

They make it clear that it's not peer-reviewed, which is likely to be pretty much a formality with a follow-up study like this anyway. They also make it clear that it appears to protect against severe cases. It's a pretty reasonable report tbh
 

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
3,031

The government has ruled out plans to issue so-called "vaccine passports" to enable people who have had the jab against coronavirus to travel abroad.
The Greek prime minister has said he would welcome British holidaymakers if they could prove they have been vaccinated.
Vaccine minister Nadhim Zahawi told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show that people could get evidence from their GP.

I'm not sure GPs should be responsible for proving you can go on a jolly to Greece to be honest!
 

NorthOxonian

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
1,670
Location
Oxford/Newcastle



I'm not sure GPs should be responsible for proving you can go on a jolly to Greece to be honest!
I don't think GPs will mind - it's hardly a lot of work but they'll be able to charge £30 or so for the pleasure, as is typical for other doctor's letters. GPs are techincally private businesses after all.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,252
I'm not sure GPs should be responsible for proving you can go on a jolly to Greece to be honest!
Plenty of other countries will be requiring proof whether there are passport or not including Greece, Sweden, US, Australia.

As @NorthOxonian says that is one way to help GPs finances!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That's incorrect I'm afraid. There is zero evidence that that the SA strain spreads faster or more readily than the Kent Strain. When it was discovered a flustered Hancock said "it could spread faster" but since then Vallance has said there is no evidence for this - and the fact that the Kent strain is so widespread, that it would be extremely unlikely that it was displaced by the SA strain as it isnt more infectious.

So more likely - it co-exists at a much lower level during the summer and onwards after that- similar to Spanish/Italian strain which was dominant last autumn but now at much lower levels than the Kent Strain. With boosters due by autumn this issue is being overhyped massively.
It actually turned out that Vallance hadn't been in one of the briefings and had missed the discussion on some South Africa work (done by close contacts of PHE experts) that was about to be published several days later. With the additional E484K mutation it is fundamentally harder for specific antibodies to stick to that bit of the spike, the practical impact of which is "patients" having high viral loads for longer giving the new strain a transmission advantage. Hence why Hancock is still very worried byt he SA strain.
 
Last edited:

XAM2175

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2016
Messages
3,471
Location
Glasgow
I'm not sure GPs should be responsible for proving you can go on a jolly to Greece to be honest!
I don't think GPs will mind - it's hardly a lot of work but they'll be able to charge £30 or so for the pleasure, as is typical for other doctor's letters. GPs are techincally private businesses after all.
It's already the case that GPs (and some private clinics and pharmacies, etc) will provide optional vaccines for people who require them for overseas travel. Some of these are subsidised by the NHS as the disease is deemed to pose a risk if it is brought back to the UK by a traveller.

While I have no particular desire to see vaccination "passports" come into use domestically I fully expect that they will become a requirement for most overseas travel at some point reasonably soon. A number of countries already require vaccination for the likes of yellow fever and polio when travellers have arrived from at-risk countries so it's a natural expansion of those existing schemes.

The bigger question in my mind is that of the form the proof of vaccination will take - the WHO's International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis is the current standard but it isn't a secure document and so would be at huge risk of forgery by people who are unwilling or unable to receive the vaccine and who also don't qualify for exemption.
 

packermac

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
543
Location
Swanage
This is not the first time the BBC, and probably other outlets too, have done this, but they're reporting on the Oxford vaccine assessment against the SA strain as if its content is nailed on, but it's been made clear the study hasn't yet been peer-reviewed:

Which was made totally clear on the news at 13:00 which I assume you did not watch!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top