Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[TravelDream]

Countries with strict rules will quickly change their tune when they see all their usual visitor income going to the likes of Turkey. Sheer economics should take care of it before diplomacy.

It is far more important for us to make our voices heard for domestic change, in my humble opinion.

I never quite understand this argument.

Places like Turkey have very limited capacity to absorb additional tourists. Yes, you can build more hotels, but they can't be put up overnight and many tourism companies have significant debts due to Covid. A boom in demand will lead to the inevitable increase in prices dissuading people from holidaying there.

Then there are places in South East Asia (Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia etc.) which almost certainly will insist on vaccine passports and can very easily turn to tourism from China or India if European numbers drop. Seriously, look at Thailand's figures.
2010 - 810k Brits and 1.2 million Chinese.
2019 - 995k Brits and 10.9 million Chinese.

Though, on saying that, I think there is quite strong resistance to passports in several EU countries (Spain and Greece) as well.

 

[kristiang85]

I never quite understand this argument.

Places like Turkey have very limited capacity to absorb additional tourists. Yes, you can build more hotels, but they can't be put up overnight and many tourism companies have significant debts due to Covid. A boom in demand will lead to the inevitable increase in prices dissuading people from holidaying there.

Then there are places in South East Asia (Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia etc.) which almost certainly will insist on vaccine passports and can very easily turn to tourism from China or India if European numbers drop. Seriously, look at Thailand's figures.
2010 - 810k Brits and 1.2 million Chinese.
2019 - 995k Brits and 10.9 million Chinese.

Though, on saying that, I think there is quite strong resistance to passports in several EU countries (Spain and Greece) as well.

I'm not sure if you've been to Turkey, but I have many times and they have no shortage of accommodation. I don't even go to the main tourist parts usually either. Although last year I went to Antalya and it was empty, which whilst pleasant for me (it is such a beautiful place) it was devastating for local businesses. The Turkish economy has been in freefall for a couple of years, and has been exacerbated by COVID. Their air industry invested an eye watering amount in their new Istanbul Airport to make it the world's hub, and it has a huge fleet of planes that need filling. It is no surprise at all that they are quickly opening up, and it will be a long time before any kind of supply/demand increase in prices takes effect there.

Turkey is a perfect example that ecnomoics will very quickly dictate a country's COVID policies towards its visitors.

Yes some countries will be fine with vaccine passports because their normal visitors will be happy with it, but European countries mostly rely on European visitors, who culturally generally will not accept it.

 

[Bantamzen]

Countries with strict rules will quickly change their tune when they see all their usual visitor income going to the likes of Turkey. Sheer economics should take care of it before diplomacy.

It is far more important for us to make our voices heard for domestic change, in my humble opinion.

Honestly I feel we can, and should do both. Realistically the UK holiday market isn't going to be coping with demand as a result of overseas travel being heavily restricted, and risks the kind of surge in tourist numbers that have the lockivists climbing the walls demanding more restriction. So either we try to work with travel companies and foreign governments to remove as many barriers as possible, or many people will be told they can't take a break through no fault of their own.

 

[TravelDream]

I'm not sure if you've been to Turkey, but I have many times and they have no shortage of accommodation. I don't even go to the main tourist parts usually either. Although last year I went to Antalya and it was empty, which whilst pleasant for me (it is such a beautiful place) it was devastating for local businesses. The Turkish economy has been in freefall for a couple of years, and has been exacerbated by COVID. Their air industry invested an eye watering amount in their new Istanbul Airport to make it the world's hub, and it has a huge fleet of planes that need filling. It is no surprise at all that they are quickly opening up, and it will be a long time before any kind of supply/demand increase in prices takes effect there.

Turkey is a perfect example that ecnomoics will very quickly dictate a country's COVID policies towards its visitors.

Yes some countries will be fine with vaccine passports because their normal visitors will be happy with it, but European countries mostly rely on European visitors, who culturally generally will not accept it.

I've been to Turkey several times to both touristy parts and bits off the beaten track where very few Brits go. 2020 was undoubtedly a terrible year for tourist resorts everywhere and can't really be though of as the norm.

I know there are a lot of fairly new resorts in Turkey, but everywhere will run into capacity problems eventually if numbers do surge. Don't forget Turkey also has a significant number of Russian tourists (no visa required) and Islamic tourism from the Gulf is booming too.

I also think Turkey is more likely to be on any red-list when it comes out. The government there was clearly 'massaging' figures last summer to keep the tourists coming and local populace happy (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7436880/) and they were eventually called out for it by the UK gov and put on the red list even though officially cases were still low. Official figures show cases are booming there at the moment too.

This isn't being anti-travel either. I was last abroad just before Christmas and am desperate to get away too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Honestly I feel we can, and should do both. Realistically the UK holiday market isn't going to be coping with demand as a result of overseas travel being heavily restricted, and risks the kind of surge in tourist numbers that have the lockivists climbing the walls demanding more restriction. So either we try to work with travel companies and foreign governments to remove as many barriers as possible, or many people will be told they can't take a break through no fault of their own.

Maybe but what govt is going to do is trade risk from overseas holidays for not releasing ALL UK restrictions and that is quite frankly unacceptable. Getting the UK back to normal life should its first priority not pandering to the whims of people wanting to go to the Mediterranean.

 

[Richard Scott]

Maybe but what govt is going to do is trade risk from overseas holidays for not releasing ALL UK restrictions and that is quite frankly unacceptable. Getting the UK back to normal life should its first priority not pandering to the whims of people wanting to go to the Mediterranean.

No, we should be back to normal life, foreign holidays as well. There is absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be the case. Majority will be vaccinated soon, the new variants issue is just a non issue so what's the problem? We don't need trade offs or if we do this we can't go this scenarios, all just pointless and all it's achieving is reduction of quality of life for the citizens of this country. Afraid it's politicians who pander to Facebook and are too wrapped up in all this paranoia so can't see wood for the trees. They need to remember they're elected to serve us not the other way around.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Given how easy it is to still go abroad, I am surprised people are still "compliant". For example, it takes 5 minutes to book an overseas property viewing* (and costs nothing) in a country of your choice (although pick one not subject to return quarantine!) - get a confirmation of the viewing, complete the UK government exit form, and board your plane! Perfectly permitted to take the wife and kids along.

*Other legally permissible reasons are available. E.g. set up a limited company on Companies House for £12.00, put you and the wife as directors, and you can go abroad for a "business development" or "research" trip. Come back, file dormant accounts, and job done! For added irony, I'd consider setting up a hotel or beach club "review" company.

 

[Bantamzen]

Maybe but what govt is going to do is trade risk from overseas holidays for not releasing ALL UK restrictions and that is quite frankly unacceptable. Getting the UK back to normal life should its first priority not pandering to the whims of people wanting to go to the Mediterranean.

Its not just about the "whims" of anyone, we have all had a bloody hard 12 months & UK resorts are nowhere near equipped to handle all of the tourism that would be heading overseas. So either we find a way to allow everyone to get away, or some people, potentially those on lower incomes will have to miss out. And that is far more unacceptable.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Its not just about the "whims" of anyone, we have all had a bloody hard 12 months & UK resorts are nowhere near equipped to handle all of the tourism that would be heading overseas. So either we find a way to allow everyone to get away, or some people, potentially those on lower incomes will have to miss out. And that is far more unacceptable.

Well if your happy for them to keep us in masks and force vaccine passports onto being needed to access football stadiums, cinemas etc then thats your call but i for one would rather being able to spend the 350 odd days im usually in the UK without any restrictions on what I can do.

 

[Richard Scott]

Well if your happy for them to keep us in masks and force vaccine passports onto being needed to access football stadiums, cinemas etc then thats your call but i for one would rather being able to spend the 350 odd days im usually in the UK without any restrictions on what I can do.

But why is any of this necessary? Fed up with having to trade off one thing for another due to whom of some politicians who neither understand science nor mathematics.

 

[takno]

Well if your happy for them to keep us in masks and force vaccine passports onto being needed to access football stadiums, cinemas etc then thats your call but i for one would rather being able to spend the 350 odd days im usually in the UK without any restrictions on what I can do.

Nobody is happy with that, it's just a completely false dichotomy. People going abroad to most countries aren't at hugely higher risk of catching anything than people at home, and are at almost no risk of catching anything we don't already have here. The protection in any case comes from having vaccinated the vulnerable, not from zero Covid.

The long term masks and vaccine passports come from exactly the same stupid government thinking as the other restrictions. Nobody in government who thinks that the travel ban is useful will ever be convinced that the masks and vaccine passports aren't useful, and most people who oppose one of the measures oppose all of them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Nobody is happy with that, it's just a completely false dichotomy. People going abroad to most countries aren't at hugely higher risk of catching anything than people at home, and are at almost no risk of catching anything we don't already have here. The protection in any case comes from having vaccinated the vulnerable, not from zero Covid.

The long term masks and vaccine passports come from exactly the same stupid government thinking as the other restrictions. Nobody in government who thinks that the travel ban is useful will ever be convinced that the masks and vaccine passports aren't useful, and most people who oppose one of the measures oppose all of them.

I agree with you 100% but the govt don't work that way and if its a choice between overseas holidays or restriction free UK i can wait another year for an overseas trip.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well if your happy for them to keep us in masks and force vaccine passports onto being needed to access football stadiums, cinemas etc then thats your call but i for one would rather being able to spend the 350 odd days im usually in the UK without any restrictions on what I can do.

We don't need to be kept in masks, we have almost half the population with at least one dose down, and a increasing number with two. The vulnerable are all but shielded as best a we can, healthcare is no longer under threat, we are in as good as a position, maybe more than we could have hoped for 6 months. So its time to stop the stupid political gesturing, because that's all what this is and get back on it.

I agree with you 100% but the govt don't work that way and if its a choice between overseas holidays or restriction free UK i can wait another year for an overseas trip.

The government work for us, so its time we reminded them of this.

 

[takno]

I agree with you 100% but the govt don't work that way and if its a choice between overseas holidays or restriction free UK i can wait another year for an overseas trip.

The government work by making everybody pick the restriction they like least from the list, and then encouraging you to think they are only keeping the other restrictions because they can't get rid of that one. They've got no intention of getting rid of any of them.

It's basic divide and conquer, and ultimately as long as people keep playing it the government will get their way on all the restrictions

 

[Bantamzen]

The government work by making everybody pick the restriction they like least from the list, and then encouraging you to think they are only keeping the other restrictions because they can't get rid of that one. They've got no intention of getting rid of any of them.

It's basic divide and conquer, and ultimately as long as people keep playing it the government will get their way on all the restrictions

Exactly, pick a restriction you dislike the least and we'll run with. Well how about none please? We've all done our bit, they are running out of excuses to keep us like this. Time to remind them how they got there in the first place, and how they can be removed.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

We don't need to be kept in masks, we have almost half the population with at least one dose down, and a increasing number with two. The vulnerable are all but shielded as best a we can, healthcare is no longer under threat, we are in as good as a position, maybe more than we could have hoped for 6 months. So its time to stop the stupid political gesturing, because that's all what this is and get back on it.

100% agree with this as well but this govt are not in this place at all although I do feel some of it is deliberate to maximise impact from current restrictions and then allow some betterment of roadmap/current relaxations in the run up to local elections. My other concern is many people I know have definitely become paranoid over this and even previously very easy going friends now question what we are doing trying to tell me six in the garden is illegal if its from more than two households. This govt aren't going anywhere the only opposition is coming from right wing Tories of all people who won't bring the govt down but at ebst may dilute some of the nonsense. The Labour party are nowhere to be seen and the Liberals whilst anti vaccine passports are largely made up MPs who are zero covid nutters as well.

Sadly I can't see how the population is going to change anything currently till next general election and even then I doubt they would get pushed out.

As Private Frazer says we're doomed........

 

[Darandio]

Sadly I can't see how the population is going to change anything currently till next general election and even then I doubt they would get pushed out.

We absolutely can change it but we need people to back up what they are saying with actions.

Some companies are starting to come on board on social media and are repeating the same thing, that they believe it's completely inappropriate to approach anyone about any medical status to enter their premises and that the practice will hurt them even more at a time when they are effectively on their knees. They are receiving huge support for their stance.

If the support is as big as it seems to be then once re-opened, these people need to only support businesses taking this stance, even if that means some inconvenience in the short term with things like social distancing. If this hits businesses that have pandered to the government in the pocket then their attitude will soon change and force their hand.

It might well be a big ask but the power to change it is with us, not them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

We absolutely can change it but we need people to back up what they are saying with actions.

Some companies are starting to come on board on social media and are repeating the same thing, that they believe it's completely inappropriate to approach anyone about any medical status to enter their premises and that the practice will hurt them even more at a time when they are effectively on their knees. They are receiving huge support for their stance.

If the support is as big as it seems to be then once re-opened, these people need to only support businesses taking this stance, even if that means some inconvenience in the short term with things like social distancing. If this hits businesses that have pandered to the government in the pocket then their attitude will soon change and force their hand.

It might well be a big ask but the power to change it is with us, not them.

Too much of the population has been brainwashed although its clear its also becoming very polarised with pragmatic people (majority on this forum) vs those that will be led by donkeys and do as their told.

 

[Class 33]

Punters 'could require a Covid vaccine passport to enter pubs by end of summer'​

Ministers are still looking at the possibility of forcing pubs to ask for proof of a Covid vaccine or negative test this summer if they want to drop social distancing, it is reported.

The PM is expected to announce tonight that people in England will need vaccine passports to enter crowded venues such as football stadiums and nightclubs from as early as June 21, when the country could finally be free of most restrictions.

Pubs and restaurants will initially be exempt from vaccine passports.

However, ministers have not ruled out extending the passports or certificates to the hospitality sector later in the summer, despite fierce opposition from the pub industry, reports say.

Could require Covid vaccine passport to enter pubs by the END of summer if they want to drop social distancing?? Well we were led to believe that social distancing would FINALLY be scrapped on 21st June anyway!!! We're just not going to need this social distancing nonsense dragging on past 21st June!! Let's see what Johnson comes up with later on at 5....

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Cinema Association have also come out against vaccine passports, saying they won’t enforce it as it will hurt their businesses, the Curzon are going about it by having a vaxxed showing and a none vaxxed showing which is segregation and is unpopular.

I still believe that Authoritarians are aren’t as great in numbers as before, with more and more businesses speaking out against vaccine passports I would say that change is possible.

I also believe that independents and new fringe parties will do well out of this, I know of few people who plan on voting Tory/Lab/Lib this May, but I do know those who will vote for Piers Corbyn, Lawrence Fox, Brian Rose, Refrom U.K. and other independents, this could be a small change but I’m convinced that it’s possible

Even if vaccine passports are pushed through I doubt venues will go along with the rules anymore the mood is turning

 

[chris11256]

Could require Covid vaccine passport to enter pubs by the END of summer if they want to drop social distancing?? Well we were led to believe that social distancing would FINALLY be scrapped on 21st June anyway!!! We're just not going to need this social distancing nonsense dragging on past 21st June!! Let's see what Johnson comes up with later on at 5....

21st June was about the removal of restrictions on what business can open, limits on social interactions, requirement to work from home and such. Social distancing is subject to a separate review and I'd be very impressed if its dropped by 21st June. I think at the minimum they'll want all adults offered a 1st dose + 3 weeks before agreeing to remove it.

 

[Class 33]

21st June was about the removal of restrictions on what business can open, limits on social interactions, requirement to work from home and such. Social distancing is subject to a separate review and I'd be very impressed if its dropped by 21st June. I think at the minimum they'll want all adults offered a 1st dose + 3 weeks before agreeing to remove it.

Yes I know it's subject to a separate review. But come on, this social distancing nonsense will just NOT be needed atall past 21st June. It's absolute nonsense and there will be just no valid justifications to keep it beyond this date. It needs to go along with the utterly bizarre face mask nonsense, and for us to get back to normal. But I wouldn't be atall surprised if they come up with some silly claptrap as to why it's still needed for however much longer.

I was out on a walk yesterday. And people are definitely drifting away from social distancing now when passing people in the street. I'd say about 85% of people didn't bother. I mean what's the harm in just passing someone for about a millisecond?

 

[brad465]

I also believe that independents and new fringe parties will do well out of this, I know of few people who plan on voting Tory/Lab/Lib this May, but I do know those who will vote for Piers Corbyn, Lawrence Fox, Brian Rose, Refrom U.K. and other independents, this could be a small change but I’m convinced that it’s possible

Even if vaccine passports are pushed through I doubt venues will go along with the rules anymore the mood is turning

Independents don't seem to be picking up well on opinion polls, although that doesn't mean they won't do better than expected. Given there is only one restriction easement planned between now and the local elections it's possible those candidates will get some more traction. Given where all the daily stats are, combined with 60% of adults having received at least one vaccine dose (of which 10% have had 2), this will also look even better come May 6th and will include 1-9 all having had a first dose, making the cause for further easements and opposing passports stronger.

 

[Darandio]

I was out on a walk yesterday. And people are definitely drifting away from social distancing now when passing people in the street. I'd say about 85% of people didn't bother. I mean what's the harm in just passing someone for about a millisecond?

Well there never was any harm in it. People had been brainwashed into thinking that even walking near someone was a surefire way to catch the nasty virus.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Creeping normality (also called gradualism, or landscape amnesia) is a process by which a major change can be accepted as normal and acceptable if it happens slowly through small, often unnoticeable, increments of change. The change could otherwise be regarded as remarkable and objectionable if it took place in a single step or short period. (Wikipedia).

Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemöllerwas a German theologian and Lutherian pastor. He is best known for his opposition to the Nazi regime during the late 1930s and for his widely quoted poem "First they came...". The poem exists in many versions;

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

(one Wikipedia version)

Replace Communists with anti-vaccers, Socialists with anti-lockdowners, and the others with any group which YOU specifically are not a member of and have no concerns about the the impact of the latest restrictions upon. They will come for you, it's just a matter of when.

 

[LowLevel]

Well there never was any harm in it. People had been brainwashed into thinking that even walking near someone was a surefire way to catch the nasty virus.

Still can report that I was out walking on Good Friday and two old women with two dogs flung themselves into the road just beyond a blind corner to avoid passing me single file with a passive aggressive "well thank you VERY much"

They can sod off if they think I'm walking in the road to indulge them. I may look a bit like a student who is no doubt indulging in vile partying and other such carrying on but despite my youthful looks I will never see 30 again

 

[Horizon22]

Maybe but what govt is going to do is trade risk from overseas holidays for not releasing ALL UK restrictions and that is quite frankly unacceptable. Getting the UK back to normal life should its first priority not pandering to the whims of people wanting to go to the Mediterranean.

How about the hundreds of thousands of EU citizens in the UK (and vice versa) many of whom haven't seen their familes for months or possibly over a year? This shouldn't be portrayed as all about holidays.

 

[Bikeman78]

We are all going to get burner phones like criminals, cool.

If anyone tried to track my phone they would get very bored very quickly. I get a report from google every month. It's astonishingly accurate. It can tell when I'm walking, cycling, driving or in a train. The one thing that fooled it was the New York Subway. Seemingly their algorithms don't take into account that someone might go underground and spend two or three hours whizzing up and down the same route!

 

[dave87016]

Holy moly Boris Johnson’s delusions know no bounds , he claims track and trace has been an amazing step to get us where we are despite its epic failure and low compliance by the nation

He repeatedly avoids questions about the Covid Vaccination certificates !!!

He genuinely can’t seem to give journalists a straight honest answer when a question is put to him

He seems to revel in dangling a carrot ( our freedom ) in his conference then whenever he mentions step 3 on 17th May he turns it to other countries which translates to look at them expect a lockdown as we will approach step 3

He doesn’t give the nation much by way of positive vibes he just seems hell bent on putting and hoping obstacles get in the way of us returning to our old normal lives

I can’t help but feel that every time Boris gives a Covid conference I feel like if I put a pair of glasses on Boris’s face will be replaced with a Skeleton face laughing at us a bit like that film starring Roddy Piper I think it was called “they live “

 

[Darandio]

Holy moly Boris Johnson’s delusions know no bounds , he claims track and trace has been an amazing step to get us where we are despite its epic failure and low compliance by the nation

He repeatedly avoids questions about the Covid Vaccination certificates !!!

He genuinely can’t seem to give journalists a straight honest answer when a question is put to him

As i've just said in the roadmap thread, he was asked if it would be voted on in parliament. It's a simple question and hugely important given how big the issue is but he couldn't give a simple answer.

Of course it should be voted on but that would mean potentially losing their iron grip on control.