Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[kez19]

That’s why I never trust Polls or surveys.

I barely follow any polls or surveys which makes me suspect who the media/polls speak to.

 

[NorthKent1989]

That's such a patronising article. You don't have to be some anti-government firebrand or chin stroking libertarian to find these plans deeply objectionable.

And besides, most of the people who want a night out wouldn't be able to have one under a vaccine passport regime - unless you're suggesting the nightclubs will be filled with over 50s!

Yes the article does seem rather mocking doesn’t it.

Boris is going to have to do a lot of u turns on the near future, no need for passports for pubs or restaurants but not for nightclubs in which 100% of their customers are 18 to 40??

It’s already track and trace all over again and shows that the whole thing is unenforceable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2021 ==

I barely follow any polls or surveys which makes me suspect who the media/polls speak to.

About 11 people in Dartford, High Wycombe and St. Albans collectively and then they amplify that number by quadruple times a few thousand

 

[kez19]

Yes the article does seem rather mocking doesn’t it.

Boris is going to have to do a lot of u turns on the near future, no need for passports for pubs or restaurants but not for nightclubs in which 100% of their customers are 18 to 40??

It’s already track and trace all over again and shows that the whole thing is unenforceable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2021 ==



About 11 people in Dartford, High Wycombe and St. Albans collectively and then they amplify that number by quadruple times a few thousand

Be better appearing on Family Fortunes... “our survey says” *ding* or X

 

[duncanp]

Not if the app reports your position and a fine is triggered if you leave your area (or home even). Tinfoil hat territory for now but you can see the danger here....

But if you accidently forgot to take your phone with you, or had a cheap phone (non smart) that you could temporarily insert the SIM into if you wanted to leave your area, then no-one would ever know.

And paying for drinks with cash would mean there is no record on your card statement.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The Sunday Telegraph tomorrow is reporting that the planned vaccine passports would not be ready until the autumn (which given the Government's track record isn't surprising):

View attachment 93760

So what will happen is they'll either delay opening the venues requiring them until the autumn and cause a huge backlash because of that delay, or they'll reopen them before the passport is introduced and create massive question marks about why a passport is necessary in the autumn and not the previous few months the venues in question were open for without them.

I see from the mock-up - which is a real app in development - that the user is assumed to already have a passport, from which a photo can be extracted. Good luck on that one.

The trial, will probably be a massive success - a limited number of prime occasions for which people will make the effort to get tickets in the first place so will be equally happy to make the effort to get their passport as well. Will there be a similar number of 'control' events where passports are NOT required, in order to measure rates of infection etc?

 

[Eyersey468]

But if you accidently forgot to take your phone with you, or had a cheap phone (non smart) that you could temporarily insert the SIM into if you wanted to leave your area, then no-one would ever know.

And paying for drinks with cash would mean there is no record on your card statement.

To be honest I am close to getting a cheap non smart phone solely for this kind of thing

 

[PHILIPE]

If it's going to take until the autumn for the vaccine passports to be ready, then they may as well just ditch the idea completely! By then all adults(apart from those who do not want or unable to take the vaccine for some medical reasons) will have got their first jab, and a very large majority will have got their second jab. Hospital numbers and daily deaths will be absolutely miniscule. Absolutely no justifications for social distancing and face mask wearing to still be going by then. So it's just absolutely pointless this going ahead, may as well just be ditched!

Not ready until the Autumn ? That might give the Government a chance to use the time to put the running of the project to a tendering process to establish who will run it instead of to a crony with a poor track record in that type of field.

 

[Ediswan]

The trial, will probably be a massive success - a limited number of prime occasions for which people will make the effort to get tickets in the first place so will be equally happy to make the effort to get their passport as well. Will there be a similar number of 'control' events where passports are NOT required, in order to measure rates of infection etc?

I was just thinking much the same while chopping some potatoes. There is a definte risk of the false logic that if events with restrictions prove safe, this also proves restrictions are required.

 

[MikeWM]

And paying for drinks with cash would mean there is no record on your card statement.

One of many good reasons why it is very important to resist the pressure to move to a cashless society.

 

[birchesgreen]

We are all going to get burner phones like criminals, cool.

 

[TravelDream]

One of many good reasons why it is very important to resist the pressure to move to a cashless society.

Mega off-topic, but if we ever did become a cashless society, there would undoubtedly be lot of relatively anonymous 'cash cards' setup as we have in limited numbers today. Still, nothing is totally ananymous unless it's actually real cash.

 

[ChrisC]

But if you accidently forgot to take your phone with you, or had a cheap phone (non smart) that you could temporarily insert the SIM into if you wanted to leave your area, then no-one would ever know.

And paying for drinks with cash would mean there is no record on your card statement.

Will it actually work on all smart phones or will it just be the more up to date models?
I never downloaded the track and trace app after I heard it initially would not work on my iPhone 6. I did hear that perhaps it will now work on older smart phones but I don’t think I will bother with it.

My iPhone 6 is still working perfectly well for what I want to do with a phone.

 

[farleigh]

We are all going to get burner phones like criminals, cool.

Peng

 

[Class 33]

Article in the Telegraph about MP's to get vote in parliament on vaccine passports and government could get defeated. The article is behind a paywall though so I can't read or post it. Anyone with an account able to post the full article?

MPs to get vote on vaccine passports – and could defeat Government

Michael Gove has privately promised MPs critical of vaccine checks that they will be given chance to vote them down

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Pete_uk]

And paying for drinks with cash would mean there is no record on your card statement.

Thats why it's preferred you pay by card.

 

[duncanp]

Article in the Telegraph about MP's to get vote in parliament on vaccine passports and government could get defeated. The article is behind a paywall though so I can't read or post it. Anyone with an account able to post the full article?

MPs to get vote on vaccine passports – and could defeat Government

Michael Gove has privately promised MPs critical of vaccine checks that they will be given chance to vote them down

www.telegraph.co.uk

Here is the full article.

If it looks like the government are going to lose, I can see them making concessions, such as excluding pubs, restaurants, cinemas or theatres, or setting a strict time limit on the measures.

I hope though that MPs are not fooled by the smarmy Michael Gove making false promises.

MPs will be given a vote on plans for vaccine passports before they are introduced, risking a Government defeat in the Commons, The Telegraph has learnt.
Michael Gove, who is leading an official review of the scheme, has privately promised MPs who are critical of vaccine checks that they will be given a chance to vote them down.
More than 70 MPs, including 41 Conservatives, have signed an open letter to the Prime Minister opposing the use of vaccine passports. If more than around 60 Tory MPs rebel and all opposition parties refuse to support the passports, Mr Johnson could be defeated in the Commons, and the scheme abandoned.
Mr Gove held a phone call with a group of MPs about the measures last week, after dozens went public with their concerns.
One MP told this newspaper: “Michael made a very clear statement on the call with MPs that there would be debates and votes before anything like this came into force”.

The Government is currently conducting a review into a passport scheme and has not yet finalised any plans.

 

[brad465]

Article in the Telegraph about MP's to get vote in parliament on vaccine passports and government could get defeated. The article is behind a paywall though so I can't read or post it. Anyone with an account able to post the full article?

MPs to get vote on vaccine passports – and could defeat Government

Michael Gove has privately promised MPs critical of vaccine checks that they will be given chance to vote them down

www.telegraph.co.uk

Here is the full article.

If it looks like the government are going to lose, I can see them making concessions, such as excluding pubs, restaurants, cinemas or theatres, or setting a strict time limit on the measures.

I hope though that MPs are not fooled by the smarmy Michael Gove making false promises.

The Government will do anything it can to avoid being defeated, given this will look like a humiliation that will stick in people's minds. So they'll either make concessions as quoted above or quietly withdraw the idea, but they'll definitely be a number of meetings between Government and backbenchers like there was with the internal market bill.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

They're going to have to be introduced one way or another unless we don't want to ever leave the UK. I'm hopeful that the need to tie it to an actual passport hints at the main purpose of these is to facilitate international travel. This is perfectly acceptable in my view, given the UK cannot really intefere with the entry policies for other countries.

So it's no good opposing the idea of a vaccine passport entirely, because you are just in effect voting to make travel exceptionally difficult or impossible for a good while longer.

The focus needs to be on controlling/restricting their use domestically, but trying to block them entirely is a stupid thing to do. As soon as people realise the only way to get abroad is to have one, watch the numbers approving of this rocket.

 

[kristiang85]

I do wonder if the government initially added pubs into the equation to get people outraged, to make it more likely for the scheme to be accepted when they drop pubs? It's sounds like the kind of psychological tactic they would use.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2021 ==

They're going to have to be introduced one way or another unless we don't want to ever leave the UK. I'm hopeful that the need to tie it to an actual passport hints at the main purpose of these is to facilitate international travel. This is perfectly acceptable in my view, given the UK cannot really intefere with the entry policies for other countries.

So it's no good opposing the idea of a vaccine passport entirely, because you are just in effect voting to make travel exceptionally difficult or impossible for a good while longer.

The focus needs to be on controlling/restricting their use domestically, but trying to block them entirely is a stupid thing to do. As soon as people realise the only way to get abroad is to have one, watch the numbers approving of this rocket.

Travel "vaccine passports" are fine, and the government would probably be negligent if they didn't investigate official standardised ways of doing them, given other countries will have varying rules on entry. This is fine. Although I don't see the disease as risky to myself, on going to other countries I'm happy to abide by their rules, as I do with my yellow fever certificate for various places.

It is the requirement for anybody to show some kind of pass to go to their local or other venue domestically that I'm vehemently against. It is a thin end of a very large and dark wedge.

 

[Richard Scott]

Travel "vaccine passports" are fine, and the government would probably be negligent if they didn't investigate official standardised ways of doing them, given other countries will have varying rules on entry. This is fine. Although I don't see the disease as risky to myself, on going to other countries I'm happy to abide by their rules, as I do with my yellow fever certificate for various places.

It is the requirement for anybody to show some kind of pass to go to their local or other venue domestically that I'm vehemently against. It is a thin end of a very large and dark wedge.

Completely agree.

 

[MikeWM]

Mega off-topic, but if we ever did become a cashless society, there would undoubtedly be lot of relatively anonymous 'cash cards' setup as we have in limited numbers today. Still, nothing is totally ananymous unless it's actually real cash.

One of the other arguments of course is that once this 'social credit' system properly gets underway - which is what 'vaccine passports' will morph into - then the ability to use a credit/debit card may well be linked to having sufficient 'social credit'. Cash totally undermines that level of control and data tracking, which is part of the reason we see so much concerted effort to get us to abandon it. Yes, we could go back to try to get by with local bartering in the community, but it would be much more difficult (especially if you're a 'social credit' undesirable, and anyone caught trying to help you out would also have their 'credit' affected).

--

Will it actually work on all smart phones or will it just be the more up to date models?
I never downloaded the track and trace app after I heard it initially would not work on my iPhone 6. I did hear that perhaps it will now work on older smart phones but I don’t think I will bother with it.

My iPhone 6 is still working perfectly well for what I want to do with a phone.

Even if I did want to use it - which you may have guessed I don't, and won't! - I strongly suspect they won't bother coding a version for my Microsoft phone, which - quite genuinely - is my real phone. I admit there probably aren't many left in the UK that can say the same!

--

We are all going to get burner phones like criminals, cool.

I must admit I'm rather surprised this hasn't already been effectively banned (requiring SIMs to be activated by showing ID, as is already the case in some countries). I guess the ability to do this must still be useful to those in power somehow.

 

[Yew]

Here is the full article.

If it looks like the government are going to lose, I can see them making concessions, such as excluding pubs, restaurants, cinemas or theatres, or setting a strict time limit on the measures.

I hope though that MPs are not fooled by the smarmy Michael Gove making false promises.

Like how the Coronavirus act was limited to 6 months?

 

[MikeWM]

Like how the Coronavirus act was limited to 6 months?

The Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act was passed for a strictly time-limited 6 months in 1974. The measures are still on the statute book today (the renewal period got longer and longer, and eventually it was effectively absorbed into the Terrorism Act 2000)...

 

[Bantamzen]

Travel "vaccine passports" are fine, and the government would probably be negligent if they didn't investigate official standardised ways of doing them, given other countries will have varying rules on entry. This is fine. Although I don't see the disease as risky to myself, on going to other countries I'm happy to abide by their rules, as I do with my yellow fever certificate for various places.

It is the requirement for anybody to show some kind of pass to go to their local or other venue domestically that I'm vehemently against. It is a thin end of a very large and dark wedge.

I personally don't think even other countries insisting on them is fine, covid is not yellow fever (and IIRC only about 3 dozen or so countries insist on vaccination for that). Yes we may need some temporary measure in place to satisfy their paranoia, but frankly we really shouldn't b encouraging it by simply sitting back and doing nothing. If Turkey can feel comfortable in planning not to need it for UK tourists, there really is no reason for our government to negotiate similar terms with at least EU / North America / Far East nations, especially as we may have something they want! However I'm not holding out hope, and a lot of UK tourists may have to face hugely expensive tests simply because they are not old enough to have had a full dose offered. And that's not right!

 

[kristiang85]

I personally don't think even other countries insisting on them is fine, covid is not yellow fever (and IIRC only about 3 dozen or so countries insist on vaccination for that). Yes we may need some temporary measure in place to satisfy their paranoia, but frankly we really shouldn't b encouraging it by simply sitting back and doing nothing. If Turkey can feel comfortable in planning not to need it for UK tourists, there really is no reason for our government to negotiate similar terms with at least EU / North America / Far East nations, especially as we may have something they want! However I'm not holding out hope, and a lot of UK tourists may have to face hugely expensive tests simply because they are not old enough to have had a full dose offered. And that's not right!

Whilst I agree any severe covid restrictions anywhere are over the top, it's not my place to tell other countries what to do. I have a choice not to go if they insist on this (and if any popular tourist destination country does have these restrictions in, then I'm sure they will rescind it when they see the economic effects). Obviously this is different if you have to go somewhere for family or work reasons, and these tests are needed, and that would be intensely annoying. But still we can't have any influence on that.

Whereas in the UK being able to do day to day things should not be subject to such checks, especially when we've been promised "all legal restrictions" will be gone by June. And as this is our country we do have a right to try to influence this.

 

[Yew]

Whilst I agree any severe covid restrictions anywhere are over the top, it's not my place to tell other countries what to do.

However the entire art of diplomacy is to persuade other countries to agree with you, and as a nation we should be imploring the use of a rational and evidence based public health policy.

 

[kristiang85]

However the entire art of diplomacy is to persuade other countries to agree with you, and as a nation we should be imploring the use of a rational and evidence based public health policy.

Countries with strict rules will quickly change their tune when they see all their usual visitor income going to the likes of Turkey. Sheer economics should take care of it before diplomacy.

It is far more important for us to make our voices heard for domestic change, in my humble opinion.

 

[nlogax]

Whilst I agree any severe covid restrictions anywhere are over the top, it's not my place to tell other countries what to do. I have a choice not to go if they insist on this (and if any popular tourist destination country does have these restrictions in, then I'm sure they will rescind it when they see the economic effects). Obviously this is different if you have to go somewhere for family or work reasons, and these tests are needed, and that would be intensely annoying. But still we can't have any influence on that.

Completely agree with you. The best the UK can do is negotiate specific country to country travel channels (ie adding to the 'green light' list) via the art of diplomacy, but all countries are doing what is best for their own healthcare provision. We shouldn't be assuming or expecting that those priorities should be items of negotiation.

 

[Yew]

It is far more important for us to make our voices heard for domestic change, in my humble opinion.

I think we might be using a different definition of us, the people in this chat, vs the entire diplomatic core of the United Kingdom.

 

[kristiang85]

I think we might be using a different definition of us, the people in this chat, vs the entire diplomatic core of the United Kingdom.

Oh OK, sorry I was looking at it from a few on what we should be ourselves concerned with.

Yes, full time diplomats should be working on this, but given our recent behaviour on our own borders (both brexit related and covid related), I'm pretty sure we aren't in a good place to negotiate benefits for our citizens.

Don't get me wrong though, I am champing at the bit to travel - the moment we get the green light to go anywhere I'll be booking. But certainly I'll be prioritising places that make it easiest for me to go there.