Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[johntea]

Same as that, on a much smaller scale, we don't bat an eyelid now going through the ridiculous ritual of pouring liquids into 100ml bottles and a plastic bag when we get on a plane, despite being told 15 years ago it was a temporary measure until technology was developed to sort it.

December 2022 was once hinted at for all airports to have the new scanners to get rid of that, surprise surprise now pushed back 'due to Covid'...it doesn't help matters in that I believe the airports themself have to fork out for the new kit!

 

[duncanp]

The initial trails later this month only involve testing before and after the events, as the app won't be ready.

A lot will depend on what the results of the tests show.

If the trial events go ahead, and the testing shows that there is little or no transmission of the virus, then it is going to be much more difficult to persuade people that COVID status certification via the app is necessary. You may find the compulsory COVID status certification is limited to certain mass participation events that people would normally book in advance for, and not the sort of things that people do on a regular basis.

I really hope these don't come in as once they come in, they will be very difficult to get rid of. Also, given this government's record, they won't be out until next year, be described as 'world-beating' and not actually work.
Though I do think they are basically inevitable for international travel.

The longer it is before the app is released for general use, the less reason there will be for using it.

If it doesn't beocme available until the end of the year, then we will have had six months worth of figures with most things being open, and unless there is a large increases in cases and hospitalisations as a consequence of all the lockdown easings, then what is the point of having an app for COVID Status Certification?

 

[bramling]

Remember that income tax was unpopular when it came in, and was promised as an emergency war measure. Yet now we see it as an essential part of life.

Same as that, on a much smaller scale, we don't bat an eyelid now going through the ridiculous ritual of pouring liquids into 100ml bottles and a plastic bag when we get on a plane, despite being told 15 years ago it was a temporary measure until technology was developed to sort it.

I really fear that unless we stop this dead in our tracks that the generation after us will see having to prove their "cleanliness" to do normal activities as a standard way of life.

Absolutely spot on. Stuff like “tight security” is still with us 20 years after 9/11. London Underground still pumps out security announcements 15 years after 7/7.

There’s a very fine line between doing what has to be done, and allowing events to force a permanent and detrimental change to ways of life. In the security case, forcing such change is one of the terrorists’ objectives.

We absolutely don’t want a situation where people are “dirty” unless proven “clean”. Such attitudes have already been key to some pretty unpleasant behaviours over the last year, behaviours we really need to shake off and move on from.

 

[Richard Scott]

Same as that, on a much smaller scale, we don't bat an eyelid now going through the ridiculous ritual of pouring liquids into 100ml bottles and a plastic bag when we get on a plane, despite being told 15 years ago it was a temporary measure until technology was developed to sort it.

I really fear that unless we stop this dead in our tracks that the generation after us will see having to prove their "cleanliness" to do normal activities as a standard way of life.

The one concession I'll give there is at least I could see the point!

 

[brad465]

December 2022 was once hinted at for all airports to have the new scanners to get rid of that, surprise surprise now pushed back 'due to Covid'...it doesn't help matters in that I believe the airports themself have to fork out for the new kit!

What baffles me about airport security is that world leaders talk about standing up to and fighting back terrorism, but don't realise reactive change means the terrorists have already won.

The same would apply for Covid: Johnson has used rhetoric like "we'll beat this", but if we impose vaccine passports to be able to do what we were doing before, "Covid's won".

 

[bramling]

What baffles me about airport security is that world leaders talk about standing up to and fighting back terrorism, but don't realise reactive change means the terrorists have already won.

The same would apply for Covid: Johnson has used rhetoric like "we'll beat this", but if we impose vaccine passports to be able to do what we were doing before, "Covid's won".

Exactly. It’s already doing pretty well - it looks to be well on the way to robbing us of a second fulfilled year of our lives, yet has still played a part in well over 100,000 deaths (though we will never know how many of them were truly due to Covid, as opposed to with Covid).

The only people who could be remotely regarded as having been successful in “beating” this are the vaccine researchers. The politicians have got themselves into an almighty flap and been essentially knocked flat, taking the rest of us with them.

Goodness knows what happens if we ever get a virus which is an order of magnitude more deadly, though perhaps events would simply overtake the politicians and such a virus would simply do its thing and burn itself out in time.

 

[dave87016]

I reiterate that I willingly had my Covid jab because Boris said it was our "Passport" to freedom and normality , normality before Covid involved NO restrictions, NO social distancing NO covid passports , the majority of adults have had their jabs and as so often throughout the pandemic Boris shifts the goalposts by dreaming up these covid passports and expecting social distancing to remain , would I have agreed to the jab if it as our passport to freedom and normality involved restrictions, social distancing and Covid passports the long and short of it is no I would not , what is the point in carrying on if in essence the goverment is controlling what I can and cannot do ?

 

[Eyersey468]

I reiterate that I willingly had my Covid jab because Boris said it was our "Passport" to freedom and normality , normality before Covid involved NO restrictions, NO social distancing NO covid passports , the majority of adults have had their jabs and as so often throughout the pandemic Boris shifts the goalposts by dreaming up these covid passports and expecting social distancing to remain , would I have agreed to the jab if it as our passport to freedom and normality involved restrictions, social distancing and Covid passports the long and short of it is no I would not , what is the point in carrying on if in essence the goverment is controlling what I can and cannot do ?

I agree.

Regarding the passports if it comes in domestically I can see one of two things happening, either the government will make a complete mess of it or the so called 'temporary' measure will be nothing of the sort

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree.

Regarding the passports if it comes in domestically I can see one of two things happening, either the government will make a complete mess of it or the so called 'temporary' measure will be nothing of the sort

I think the former is a possible outcome, I don’t even think passports will even get off the ground (I’m probably wrong) I cannot see venues going along with rules much longer, passports or social distancing or otherwise, people are getting fed up, and while there are still many who want draconian measures in place, I don’t think there are as many as they like to think.

It’ll be track and trace all over again only this time fewer venues will comply, i feel we are in the Covid burnout phase where people are tired of it

 

[brad465]

I agree.

Regarding the passports if it comes in domestically I can see one of two things happening, either the government will make a complete mess of it or the so called 'temporary' measure will be nothing of the sort

There is a third possibility, which is they will appear permanent but end eventually, albeit only after a long time (perhaps in years). Evidence of this comes from prohibition in the US disappearing in 1933 after 13 years, and rationing continued for years after WW2 but its ending became an election campaign issue.

However this possibility is still undesirable.

 

[NorthKent1989]

There is a third possibility, which is they will appear permanent but end eventually, albeit only after a long time (perhaps in years). Evidence of this comes from prohibition in the US disappearing in 1933 after 13 years, and rationing continued for years after WW2 but its ending became an election campaign issue.

However this possibility is still undesirable.

Well the next election is three years away so if the worst happens then which ever party says they’ll get rid of them will surely be a winner

Let’s hope the whole thing will fail (I suspect it will) and not even getting it started.

 

[Eyersey468]

Well the next election is three years away so if the worst happens then which ever party says they’ll get rid of them will surely be a winner

Let’s hope the whole thing will fail (I suspect it will) and not even getting it started.

But then how many times has one of the political parties promised something before an election and not delivered?

 

[duncanp]

But then how many times has one of the political parties promised something before an election and not delivered?

You could have the same situation as happened with the Poll Tax.

Margaret Thatcher introduced in in 1990 (1989 in Scotland) and was forced out of office later that year. John Major quickly realised that the Poll Tax was a vote loser and it had to be replaced before the next election.

So if Boris introduces vaccine passports this year, he might decide to step down in the autumn. Then Rishi Sunak, or whoever does become the new PM. could decide to abolish vaccine passports if, by then, public opinion has turned against them.

 

[Ediswan]

Another thing which was temporary... The Dartford Crossing toll charge...

The promise to end toll charges for the Dartford Crossing was kept in 2003. They were immediately replaced with a congestion charging scheme.

 

[Eyersey468]

The promise to end toll charges for the Dartford Crossing was kept in 2003. They were immediately replaced with a congestion charging scheme.

They are a toll charge in all but name though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2021 ==

You could have the same situation as happened with the Poll Tax.

Margaret Thatcher introduced in in 1990 (1989 in Scotland) and was forced out of office later that year. John Major quickly realised that the Poll Tax was a vote loser and it had to be replaced before the next election.

So if Boris introduces vaccine passports this year, he might decide to step down in the autumn. Then Rishi Sunak, or whoever does become the new PM. could decide to abolish vaccine passports if, by then, public opinion has turned against them.

Fair point

 

[Ediswan]

They are a toll charge in all but name though

Exactly. It is a good example of why it is apprpriate to press politicians for the full details of what they intend to do. Assume any gaps are hiding something. Look for qualifying terms, in this case the promise to remove toll charges rather than simply to remove charges.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I do hope these aren't made permanent given practically all of the younger population aren't vaccinated. I was incredibly disheartened to see that they are trialling it, because we all know a trial means it'll be made permanent.

I do think many businesses aren't going to comply with it as they've already had to handle enough. If a premises requires vaccine passports to enter, customers may just take their business elsewhere, I would.

 

[duncanp]

I am just wondering if the real reason the government is so keen on COVID status certification is to provide an alternative to lockdown next winter if there is a significant rise in cases.

In other words, when they are introduced later on in the year, they will only be required for some mass participation events.

But if there is a rise in cases in December or January, the government can "temporarily" mandate them for settings such as football matches, pubs, non essential shops.....etc. etc.

In any case, how is the government going to know whether an establishment is "clean" (requires COVID certification - no social distancing) or "dirty" (no COVID certification - social distancing still required)

 

[kez19]

I am just if the real reason the government is so keen on COVID status certification is to provide an alternative to lockdown next winter if there is a significant rise in cases.

In other words, when they are introduced later on in the year, they will only be required for some mass participation events.

But if there is a rise in cases in December or January, the government can "temporarily" mandate them for settings such as football matches, pubs, non essential shops.....etc. etc.

In any case, how is the government going to know whether an establishment is "clean" (requires COVID certification - no social distancing) or "dirty" (no COVID certification - social distancing still required)

I’ll guess it’ll be like a lottery/bingo way of it, they’ll probably claim that one side of town is dirty and the other clean, avoid those areas at all costs or take a risk.

 

[MikeWM]

I am just if the real reason the government is so keen on COVID status certification is to provide an alternative to lockdown next winter if there is a significant rise in cases.

As you've probably guessed by now, in my opinion the 'real reason' is to introduce a papers-please society, mixed with elements of Chinese-style social credit. What government wouldn't want to do that and take advantage of the 'opportunities' offered by modern technology, to track and collect data on every action of their citizens (and share that data with big business), and make life more difficult for those who are a bit 'awkward'?

And this has offered them the perfect opportunity to try to introduce it. The specific details don't really matter to them in terms of the end-goal (though of course they matter to us in terms of how much residual freedom those of us who refuse to produce papers under any circumstances, *whether or not they have been vaccinated*, will still be afforded, at least for a little while longer).

 

[kez19]

Found this take this as you will for Scotland, but I wonder if the UK/Scottish media will dig deeper into this or will it be the usual sweep under the carpet go for Boris approach?

https://mobile.twitter.com/RadioClydeNews/status/1378717656648450048

*this could also be added in the media coverage of COVID-19 as well as the Scotland thread if I am honest* (just posting it in here for now and if it warrants a move by mods please do )

Nicola Sturgeon says it’s possible we could see a trial of Covid passports in Scotland The UK Govt is set to trial them this month at a series of pilot events But the First Minister says there are still a number of big questions around their use

 

[duncanp]

I’ll guess it’ll be like a lottery/bingo way of it, they’ll probably claim that one side of town is dirty and the other clean, avoid those areas at all costs or take a risk.

That sounds suspiciously like a "local lockdown", only they won't call it that.

And of course someone from a "dirty" area will just go to a "clean" area (where vaccine passports aren't required) if they introduce such a scheme.

 

[DustyBin]

And of course someone from a "dirty" area will just go to a "clean" area (where vaccine passports aren't required) if they introduce such a scheme.

Not if the app reports your position and a fine is triggered if you leave your area (or home even). Tinfoil hat territory for now but you can see the danger here....

 

[Farang]

I reiterate that I willingly had my Covid jab because Boris said it was our "Passport" to freedom and normality , normality before Covid involved NO restrictions, NO social distancing NO covid passports , the majority of adults have had their jabs and as so often throughout the pandemic Boris shifts the goalposts by dreaming up these covid passports and expecting social distancing to remain , would I have agreed to the jab if it as our passport to freedom and normality involved restrictions, social distancing and Covid passports the long and short of it is no I would not , what is the point in carrying on if in essence the goverment is controlling what I can and cannot do ?

You believed Boris??!!

 

[LAX54]

Had an email today 'revealing' the planned passport for pubs, seems it is liked by many !

 

[kez19]

That sounds suspiciously like a "local lockdown", only they won't call it that.

And of course someone from a "dirty" area will just go to a "clean" area (where vaccine passports aren't required) if they introduce such a scheme.

It’s like an east/west side thing to me but on the other why are we going this far?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sky news trying to say that the public wants vaccine passports

Vaccine passports aren't too much of an issue for the general public - most people just want a night out

Polling shows the public is more relaxed than politicians about vaccine passports - most people just want lockdown to be over.

news.sky.com

I don’t know a single person - vaxxed or unvaxxed that wants such an infringement on our civil liberties

 

[kez19]

Sky news trying to say that the public wants vaccine passports

Vaccine passports aren't too much of an issue for the general public - most people just want a night out

Polling shows the public is more relaxed than politicians about vaccine passports - most people just want lockdown to be over.

news.sky.com

I don’t know a single person - vaxxed or unvaxxed that wants such an infringement on our civil liberties

I’ll say it’s a media drive even I don’t know anyone wanting one!

Was it YouGov by chance Sky?

 

[NorthOxonian]

Sky news trying to say that the public wants vaccine passports

Vaccine passports aren't too much of an issue for the general public - most people just want a night out

Polling shows the public is more relaxed than politicians about vaccine passports - most people just want lockdown to be over.

news.sky.com

I don’t know a single person - vaxxed or unvaxxed that wants such an infringement on our civil liberties

That's such a patronising article. You don't have to be some anti-government firebrand or chin stroking libertarian to find these plans deeply objectionable.

And besides, most of the people who want a night out wouldn't be able to have one under a vaccine passport regime - unless you're suggesting the nightclubs will be filled with over 50s!

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’ll say it’s a media drive even I don’t know anyone wanting one!

Was it YouGov by chance Sky?

That’s why I never trust Polls or surveys.