Using Visa Debit Cards On Train

[transmanche]

They needn't be as huge as the chunky things most rail operators have at present. How big is a mobile phone? Shove a slot for a card reader and that'd be sufficient.

Or something like this?

 

[WillPS]

Is this something somebody makes, (give a link to the brand) or are the TOC's now expected to design and build them as well?

See the post above. Think outside the box.

 

[Flamingo]

Fine, now explain how it works on the stretches of line that don't have a mobile phone signal (which includes a large part of the line from Paddington to Reading, so it's not just deepest darkest West Wales.)

Anyway, that still needs a card reader (or two or three according to you), and a ticket machine and printer.

 

[WillPS]

Fine, now explain how it works on the stretches of line that don't have a mobile phone signal (which includes a large part of the line from Paddington to Reading, so it's not just deepest darkest West Wales.)

Anyway, that still needs a card reader (or two or three according to you), and a ticket machine and printer.

You have a printer - several TOCs already use the standard ticket printer to print receipts.

Set the timeout at a higher level (like 3 mins - how many 3 minute stretches are there which you traverse with *no* 3G signal on any network?), to allow you to leave one transaction pending while moving on to the next. 70% of cards is the estimate given of how many transactions go ahead okay at moment - these will still process instantly as before.

For a size reference - look at the card readers banks send out for online banking:

Little bigger than the cards themselves! I'm sure you could even design a nice accessory for the Avantix machine to stow them away in.

 

[barrykas]

Anyway, that still needs a card reader (or two or three according to you), and a ticket machine and printer.

I can see it now...Standard equipment in the near future:

• Float
• Avantix + Printer
• PIN Entry Device
• MOVIE (Oyster reader)
• ITSO Card Reader
• Barcode Reader
• PF/UFN/Excess Pad (as appropriate)
• MG11 Pad
• TIR Pad
• Manual Imprinter
• Fallback Sales and Refund Vouchers (separate vouchers for Amex, Diners Club and anything else)
• Shift Paperwork
• Spare Batteries
• Company Mobile Phone
• Train Keys (Various)
• Hand lamp
• Flags
• Whistle
• Travel Mug

And, of course, a wheeled suitcase to carry all of the above in!

 

[WillPS]

It's really not that big a deal - right now you have an avantix and a rather cumbersome cardreader/printer (I assume!). Keep the Avantix (if they insist) and swap the cumbersome card reader with two card reader-sized gadgets and a mobile phone.

In fact, I assume you already carry a mobile if you're doing manual authorisations.

I'm not saying it'll work 100% of the time but it will work significantly more than 70%, and give some validity to the claim that you accept VISA (you don't specify the VISA scheme, remember!).

 

[island]

Last time I was in Sainsburys and their card processing system failed they were unable to accept cards. This meant the shopping being processed through the tills and staff accompanying customers to the ATMs outside. With subsequent announcements that cash only would be accepted at the check outs.

That's not really on in the case of credit cards, which would charge fees and interest.

 

[WillPS]

That's not really on in the case of credit cards, which would charge fees and interest.

Such outages are rare but that is roughly what happens - I don't know of staff chaperoning customers to cash machines though, that sounds rather pushy. Compensation is normally given if customers object.

 

[island]

I can see it now...Standard equipment in the near future:

• Float
• Avantix + Printer
• PIN Entry Device
• MOVIE (Oyster reader)
• ITSO Card Reader
• Barcode Reader
• PF/UFN/Excess Pad (as appropriate)
• MG11 Pad
• TIR Pad
• Manual Imprinter
• Fallback Sales and Refund Vouchers (separate vouchers for Amex, Diners Club and anything else)
• Shift Paperwork
• Spare Batteries
• Company Mobile Phone
• Train Keys (Various)
• Hand lamp
• Flags
• Whistle
• Travel Mug

And, of course, a wheeled suitcase to carry all of the above in!

You forgot manual ticket pads (RSP 4599?) in case the machinery gives up, and blank Railcard stock while we're at it

 

[sheff1]

I can not see how not being able to take money from passengers is weighting things in a TOC's favour? Please explain that one to me.

Passenger has a valid debit card.
Passenger has sufficient funds in the associated account.
TOC Notices suggest passengers can pay by card.
Card is declined on board due to TOC failure to invest in appropriate modern equipment.
Passenger is ejected from train short of their destination.

 

[LondonJohn]

That's not really on in the case of credit cards, which would charge fees and interest.

Precisely... but at the end of the day that was the only option. I think the system was down for a good few hours. It made headlines in a retailing magazine).

It happened on a Saturday afternoon around 2pm

I am sure that Sainsburys would have had a conversation regarding contracts and compensation with their card processors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ryanair do manual imprints not card terminals

This surprises me greatly at the risk of them losing revenue but as I do not fly Ryanair I would not know. The cabin crew probably have to go to a little room at the changeover airport and key in the transactions themselves in the 10 min turnaround.

 

[island]

This surprises me greatly at the risk of them losing revenue but as I do not fly Ryanair I would not know. The cabin crew probably have to go to a little room at the changeover airport and key in the transactions themselves in the 10 min turnaround.

As I mentioned up thread airlines tend to have floor limits below which they will still be paid even if the customer has no money. I expect any card sales vouchers are sent to the same place as the cash bags and processed by some back office.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is this something somebody makes, (give a link to the brand) or are the TOC's now expected to design and build them as well?

The TOCs, or to be precice their ostensibly representative body, ATOC, but in truth, quite an autonomous body.
I understand that ATOC have been considering the requirements for advanced ticketing for some time, and, in true ATOC style, they look at thier own needs first, then find a supplier who promises the (almost) impossible solution to their ill-defined needs.
It certainly isn't likely to be a developed, tested, established proven solution from the open market!

Their track record in tendering speaks for itself.
It will be an ad hoc specification which changes over time, managed by a largely absentee committee, leading to a contract awarded to an almost unnacountable commercial operation (and who just loves clients who are willing to pay for the wheel to be re-invented over and over again, especially if the wheel as specified has a few irregularities in it which will result in inevitable after-sales support work guaranteeing revenue for many years into the future).

Please don't go expecting any solutions anytime soon. But do expect to be paying for all this. Soon.

[If anyone here thinks there might be anything cynical in this post, then please check how these contracts have been awarded in the past, where the relevant railway revenue goes, how it is monitored at present, and where the evidence can be found for any change in practice or personnel].

 

[island]

I'm sure Avantix Freedom does this already.

 

[WillPS]

In fairness to ATOC and all those involved, a mobile GB railway ticket issuing machine has an incredibly long list of specifications which make it so bespoke that I doubt it'd be worth adapting a proven solution to fit. It would help if the application wasn't completely shaky to begin with, however, and was developed in a modular fashion to allow new developments as necessary.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm sure Avantix Freedom does this already.

Its a coincidence that you ask that question, because it seems no time since I quoted (elsewhere) a paragraph from the Freedon brouchure. I'll quote it here, with the paragraph I find to be contentious in italics

Why choose Atos Origin ?

Atos Origin continues to develop and implement
innovative solutions for the transport industry, applying
35 years of experience within the sector, coupled
with extensive knowledge and skills in business and
technology, to deliver scaleable end-to-end solutions.
It is these solutions which help improve services for
passengers, enabling them to buy tickets on the move,
make seamless connections, travel faster and receive
accurate and reliable information for the entire journey
wherever they are via a number of mediums and
devices.

I'll say no more at present (other than outrage at the word 'mediums').

 

[LondonJohn]

As I mentioned up thread airlines tend to have floor limits below which they will still be paid even if the customer has no money. I expect any card sales vouchers are sent to the same place as the cash bags and processed by some back office.

Not "electronic use only cards" or "Authorise all transaction cards". These have a NIL floor limit for each transaction which to guarantee funds to the retailer has to authorise the transaction realtime.

If someone buys £40 of inflight goods with Ryanair and the person does not have the funds when Ryanair put the transaction through it will be declined. Hence my surprise at the practice for an airline that would charge you for the air you consumed in flight with them if they could, which could mean loss of revenue to them.

 

[island]

Electronic use only cards won't come into this as they can't be used on a manual imprinter (as they don't have raised figures). I think the cards that are not marked visibly but where the chip says "authorise all transactions" will still be guaranteed by the bank though. You'll see this alluded to on the Lloyds TSB website where it says that its "control" add-on won't stop an unplanned overdraft arising from a transaction on a plane.

 

[LondonJohn]

Electronic use only cards won't come into this as they can't be used on a manual imprinter (as they don't have raised figures). I think the cards that are not marked visibly but where the chip says "authorise all transactions" will still be guaranteed by the bank though. You'll see this alluded to on the Lloyds TSB website where it says that its "control" add-on won't stop an unplanned overdraft arising from a transaction on a plane.

This is a product specificially regarding LloydsTSB that you can pay for to stop you going overdrawn, not an industry wide policy.

If you check the the Barclaycard merchant services section on chargebacks
http://www.barclaycard.co.uk/business/existing-customers/chargebacks/ it does say you are liable for chargeback if the transaction is not authorised.

I wonder if the machines the guards have on the trains that can tell a standard authorise all transactions visa debit card with raised numbers. Would it just show as declined or not valid bearing in mind that the card holder might not know its an AAT card.

 

[island]

This is a product specificially regarding LloydsTSB that you can pay for to stop you going overdrawn, not an industry wide policy.

True, but it's relevant to this thread because they implement it by giving lots of people authorise all transactions debit cards.

I wonder if the machines the guards have on the trains that can tell a standard authorise all transactions visa debit card with raised numbers. Would it just show as declined or not valid bearing in mind that the card holder might not know its an AAT card.

Perhaps our resident guards will be able to help with that.

 

[LondonJohn]

True, but it's relevant to this thread because they implement it by giving lots of people authorise all transactions debit cards.

Perhaps our resident guards will be able to help with that.

But I suspect even in the case of an Authorise All Transaction Card issued by Lloyds Banking Group will not allow the account holder to spend more than they have available... defeats the point of an AAT card and their credit controls just to satisfy a the wim of a retailer that wont/cant do real time authorisations.