using two season tickets

[euanovsky]

My understanding is that previously I could not buy two season tickets (one zonal and one starting from a named station) if my train does not call on the stop. For example, I could not get a zone 2-4 season ticket and then a season ticket between New Southgate (in zone 4) to Potters Bar as the fast train only passes through New Southgate and does not call at New Southgate.

A colleague of mine has told me that that had since been relaxed. So I've done some research and found the clause 14.2 from the T&C on the National Rail website.

"14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid."

Bit confused with the wording in bold. "The last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same". The last station of one ticket is zone 4 while the first station of another ticket is New Southgate hence they are not the same?

So my question is: can I get two season tickets, one between zone 2-4 and the other one between New Southgate to Potters Bar without breaking any rules?

Thanks.

 

[PeterC]

This does beg the question as to why you feel the need to pay twice for part of the journey rather than buying a point to point ticket to the boundary station.

 

[euanovsky]

This does beg the question as to why you feel the need to pay twice for part of the journey rather than buying a point to point ticket to the boundary station.

I'd like the flexibility of using an oyster card in London

 

[najaB]

The last station of one ticket is zone 4 while the first station of another ticket is New Southgate hence they are not the same?

What zone is New Southgate in? That'll give you your answer.

 

[euanovsky]

What zone is New Southgate in? That'll give you your answer.

Zone 4. But the last station of one ticket is zone 4 while the first station of another ticket is New Southgate (in zone 4) - does that mean they are the same or not?

 

[yorkie]

The train does not need to call when combining a season ticket and another ticket.

It used to be the case that a season ticket had to be combined with one or more non-Seasons, but as you say, this has been relaxed.

 

[najaB]

Zone 4. But the last station of one ticket is zone 4 while the first station of another ticket is New Southgate (in zone 4) - does that mean they are the same or not?

To my reading of the rules they are the same - the last station of your 2-4 ticket is *any* station in Zone 4.

 

[yorkie]

Zone 4. But the last station of one ticket is zone 4 while the first station of another ticket is New Southgate (in zone 4) - does that mean they are the same or not?

Clearly both tickets are valid at New Southgate. The train can pass through non-stop.

 

[euanovsky]

The train does not need to call when combining a season ticket and another ticket.

It used to be the case that a season ticket had to be combined with one or more non-Seasons, but as you say, this has been relaxed.

Thanks

 

[euanovsky]

This does beg the question as to why you feel the need to pay twice for part of the journey rather than buying a point to point ticket to the boundary station.

Actually it's cheaper. I can get a ticket from PB to zones 2-6 but I don't really need zones 5-6. If I get a season ticket from zones 2-4 then another season ticket from New Southgate which is in zone 4 to PB it works out cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To my reading of the rules they are the same - the last station of your 2-4 ticket is *any* station in Zone 4.

To mine they're not - the last station of a 2-4 ticket is the last station in zone 4 (or zone 2 in the inbound direction) on the route you choose to use.

The railway tends, by and large, to be reasonable, but some RPIs are not, so this term of the Conditions really does need clarifying properly one way or the other. There is an argument that says that it is deliberate, being intended to allow one-off extensions of season tickets (when you would buy from the end of the ticket) and not complex money-saving splits - though I think your and Yorkie's interpretation are probably what was intended - but that isn't what it says which is what matters if it gets to Court for any reason.

 

[yorkie]

To mine they're not - the last station of a 2-4 ticket is the last station in zone 4 (or zone 2 in the inbound direction) on the route you choose to use.

New Southgate is in Zone 4.

The railway tends, by and large, to be reasonable, but some RPIs are not, so this term of the Conditions really does need clarifying properly one way or the other.

It reads clearly to me. RPIs should be capable of doing their job.

There is an argument that says that it is deliberate, being intended to allow one-off extensions of season tickets (when you would buy from the end of the ticket) and not complex money-saving splits

Irrelevant. But if they want to stop splits that save money, they can lower the price of overpriced fares. They won't, so splits are here to stay.

- though I think your and Yorkie's interpretation are probably what was intended - but that isn't what it says which is what matters if it gets to Court for any reason.

The wording is poor, but clearly " the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same" does apply here, and that station is New Southgate.

 

[najaB]

The wording is poor, but clearly " the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same" does apply here, and that station is New Southgate.

I think Neil's making the point that you could consider the last station that the season is valid at is New Southgate (I think we all agree on that much), and the first station that the Zone 2-4 travelcard is valid at is Oakleigh Park (as it's the first Zone 4 station that's passed heading into London).

I'm sure that isn't what was intended, but it's an argument based on sound logic and a literal interpretation of the term as written.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Neil's making the point that you could consider the last station that the season is valid at is New Southgate (I think we all agree on that much), and the first station that the Zone 2-4 travelcard is valid at is Oakleigh Park (as it's the first Zone 4 station that's passed heading into London).

I'm sure that isn't what was intended, but it's an argument based on sound logic and a literal interpretation of the term as written.

Yes, that is precisely my interpretation, and I think that interpretation would have a good chance of standing up in Court if a TOC so chose, as it is the literal reading of the Condition. Your and Yorkie's readings include some level of interpretation based on previous practice, mine does not and is simply a strict reading from first principles.

I don't think they *actually meant* that reading (though per my post there is one reason why they might have done, namely allowing season ticket extensions *without* giving the passenger room to save money deliberately using splits), but that won't prevent an errant RPI/Prosecutions Department having a go.

 

[euanovsky]

I'm bit confused with the technicality in these arguments.

Anyway my original intention of splitting the ticket is that I like the flexibility of using an oyster card. In 2016 I had a season ticket for zones 2-4 and I have been buying daily return tickets from New Southgate to PB.

Now that this rule is relaxed. My intention is to buy a zones 2-4 season ticket and a season ticket between NS to PB. This happens to be cheaper than a PB to zones 2-6 tickets which I think it makes sense, as I don't need season ticket for zones 5 and 6.

So from what I understood from all these discussions, I should be able to buy a zones 2-4 season ticket on my oyster card and a season ticket between NS (or OP) to PB without any issues with a ticket inspector. Am I right?

 

[Clip]

So from what I understood from all these discussions, I should be able to buy a zones 2-4 season ticket on my oyster card and a season ticket between NS (or OP) to PB without any issues with a ticket inspector. Am I right?

Yes...

 

[najaB]

I'm bit confused with the technicality in these arguments.

Welcome to the complexity that is the UK rail ticketing system!

So from what I understood from all these discussions, I should be able to buy a zones 2-4 season ticket on my oyster card and a season ticket between NS (or OP) to PB without any issues with a ticket inspector. Am I right?

With a season to New Southgate, 99.9% of the time you won't even get a raised eyelid out of any RPIs who you happen to meet. The discussion is about what will happen on the other 0.1% of times.

If you bought the season to Oakleigh Park then you would be fine 100% of the time.

 

[najaB]

As an aside, it's probably the first time that Yorkie and I have been in agreement about a customer-focused interpretation of the rules and for someone else to be arguing the literal interpretation of the rules.

It feels weird.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Dumb Question
When the OP exits KX using the Oyster, does the gate recognise it as an entry or exit? being the first point of use

eg exit P8 at KX
enter LUL on the Victoria entry gate
exit Vic line at (say) Oxford Circus

and charge for the KX-Oxford circus fare

OR look for an entry point that corresponds with the KX main line exit and flags it up as a 'bit dodgy' when there isnt one?

 

[MikeWh]

Dumb Question
When the OP exits KX using the Oyster, does the gate recognise it as an entry or exit? being the first point of use

eg exit P8 at KX
enter LUL on the Victoria entry gate
exit Vic line at (say) Oxford Circus

and charge for the KX-Oxford circus fare

OR look for an entry point that corresponds with the KX main line exit and flags it up as a 'bit dodgy' when there isnt one?

There is no issue with missing touches when the card is used within the zones covered by a travelcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside, it's probably the first time that Yorkie and I have been in agreement about a customer-focused interpretation of the rules and for someone else to be arguing the literal interpretation of the rules.

It feels weird.

I do think the intention overall was for your interpretation, and that most staff on the ground will take your interpretation. Trouble is there are a small number of staff who may take a more literal reading - so my advice is "be careful".

If in this case the two tickets are being purchased specifically to be used together, ensuring that they meet both possible readings is probably not too hard - indeed, if that doesn't cost any more I'd just do that (i.e. buy the season to Oakleigh Park and not New Southgate).

 

[silverfoxcc]

Mike


Thanks, i always thought it looked for an end and beginning for each journey and if not maxed it out each time.

 

[maniacmartin]

I too believe the intention of the rules would be to allow the New Southgate ticket to be combined, but technically its not what's ended up being written in the NRCoT, so I'd buy the Oakleigh Park ticket. You need to be careful with the technicalities when trying to use 'loopholes'.


Even though its not permitted in the rules, you don't get charged maximum journey charges if you forget to touch in or out when you have a season ticket stored on Oyster, and the touch at the other end of journey is in the zones that are covered by that season ticket.

However, if you held a Zones 2-4 season on Oyster and touched out in another zone (e.g. Zone 1) without first touching in anywhere (or vica versa), I believe that a maximum fare would be charged. This means that it would be expensive to decide one day you wanted to stay on the train all the way to King's Cross. It would be cheaper in that case to get off and touch in at somewhere like Finsbury Park en route.

 

[MikeWh]

Mike


Thanks, i always thought it looked for an end and beginning for each journey and if not maxed it out each time.

It does when using PAYG, but not when using a travelcard within its zones.

Even though its not permitted in the rules, you don't get charged maximum journey charges if you forget to touch in or out when you have a season ticket stored on Oyster, and the touch at the other end of journey is in the zones that are covered by that season ticket.

However, if you held a Zones 2-4 season on Oyster and touched out in another zone (e.g. Zone 1) without first touching in anywhere (or vica versa), I believe that a maximum fare would be charged. This means that it would be expensive to decide one day you wanted to stay on the train all the way to King's Cross. It would be cheaper in that case to get off and touch in at somewhere like Finsbury Park en route.

Correct.

 

[Deerfold]

Dumb Question
When the OP exits KX using the Oyster, does the gate recognise it as an entry or exit? being the first point of use

eg exit P8 at KX
enter LUL on the Victoria entry gate
exit Vic line at (say) Oxford Circus

and charge for the KX-Oxford circus fare

OR look for an entry point that corresponds with the KX main line exit and flags it up as a 'bit dodgy' when there isnt one?

Where do you mean by KX? Kings Cross (KGX)? If so the OP won't exit there as they exit in Zone 2.