Using someone else's travel pass

[najaB]

Yikes I would have probably worried myself into an early grave by then
I was expecting something in the couple of weeks

Typically it takes anything between two to six weeks. However, they have up to six months to bring charges and we have had a few cases where the letter lands on the doormat after four or five months.

While the RPI's language makes me hopeful that you have been let off, this is going to play on your mind until March.

I wish I could be the bearer of better news.

 

[R1971]

Dear All
Please below copy of text from letter received I have omitted the date

you were reported to Transport for London for failing to produce a valid ticket, pass or photocard for your journey on the London Underground. The facts of this incident are being considered and I must advise you that legal proceedings may be taken against you in accordance with Transport for London's prosecution policy.

In order for TFL to deal with your case correctly, please fill out the form on the reverse side of this letter and return the information by email within 10 days.

You do not have to reply to this letter but it may harm your defence if you do not mention something now which you may later rely on in court. Anything you provide in writing may be used as evidence.

Failure to respond to this letter may result in the matter being progressed by Transport for London without further notification.

If you require further info please refer to Tfl's Revenue Enforcement and Prosecution Policy.

The reverse then asks me to state my details and the following.

1. If you deny committing an offence please explain why,. Please note Tfl fare evasion offences are ones of strict liability. This means that a mistake or accident is not a defence. The fact that you were on a Tfl service without a valid ticket or pass is normally sufficient for a conviction.

2. If you accept committing an office, please provide any exceptional reasons, including evidence as to why Tfl should not proceed with a prosecution.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I responded as below by email
Further to your letter dated xxxxxxx received on xxxxxxx in relation to the incident that occurred on xxxxxxx.




I did travel on the London Underground without a valid ticket and am extremely remorseful, embarrassed and utterly disappointed with myself that I did so. It was a pure momentary lapse due to being pre-occupied with work and personal issues, but I totally appreciate this should not be excused from purchasing a valid ticket to travel on the tube and the seriousness of doing so.




Due to staffing shortages at my place of work I was waiting for an annual season ticket to be processed, again this is not an excuse for not having a valid ticket. My ticket has now been processed and I am in receipt of it.




I am a person of precious good character and have never been in this situation before nor intend to be in this situation again. I have been racked with guilt since the incident took place and would like to firstly offer to pay for the fare that I should have paid for on xxxxxx as well as recompense for wasting your time in having to investigate and deal with this matter which is completely unacceptable.




This is totally out of character for me to act in this way and I can assure this will never happen again. I am truly sorry.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Response from TFL today by letter.

TFL takes the misuse of high value passes very seriously especially where there is evidence of long term misuse. Your comments will be taken into consideration when reviewing this case. As soon as we have reached a decision we will contact you. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you can assist further.

I presume they will take me to court, I will receive a criminal record and max fine of £1,000.00, is there anything else I can expect? (not saying the criminal record and fine is not bad enough) as it is very bad.

And please don't give me an ear bashing
I know what I did was wrong
I should not have done it but I did

I am just trying to gauge what happens now?
How long before they write back to me?

Any constructive views would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance

 

[matt_world2004]

Your response needs to make reference to the fact your sister was not aware that the pass had been taken. Tfl rarely do out of court settlements,

 

[R1971]

Your response needs to make reference to the fact your sister was not aware that the pass had been taken. Tfl rarely do out of court settlements,

Thank you for your comment.
I did state this in the report I gave to the inspector at the time I was found to be travelling with the pass.
Should I now send a separate email stating the same again? Happy to do so.
I appreciate they will not settle out of court, have read various internet forums since this happened and can only see criminal record and fine of £1000.00.

Due to the severity of the offence, am I right in thinking I may get a letter stating they intend to prosecute and then asking me to plead guilty or not, and if I am going to appear at court or not, sorry for what may seem stupid questions but not sure what to expect next.

 

[najaB]

Your response needs to make reference to the fact your sister was not aware that the pass had been taken. Tfl rarely do out of court settlements,

Agree with the above. A one off, rash decision to use the pass without your sister's knowledge *might* be resolvable by means of an out of court settlement. If they believe that she was complicit in its misuse, not only are you looking at a more serious outcome but she'll be dragged into it as well which may have implications for her employment.

Perchance was she on leave or have a similar reason to not notice that the pass was missing?

 

[R1971]

Agree with the above. A one off, rash decision to use the pass without your sister's knowledge *might* be resolvable by means of an out of court settlement. If they believe that she was complicit in its misuse, not only are you looking at a more serious outcome but she'll be dragged into it as well which make have implications on her employment.

Perchance was she on leave or have a similar reason to not notice that the pass was missing?

thank you NajaB -
She is currently based in the midlands but comes down to London quite often due to work, sometimes staying with me. She left her pass at mine (not intentionally) when she last came and said she would get it when she is back down (this can be last minute visit depending on work) otherwise she is back in October for good when she would collect it as will be located in London for a few years. She was definitely not complicit in this.

 

[najaB]

I presume they will take me to court, I will receive a criminal record and max fine of £1,000.00, is there anything else I can expect? (not saying the criminal record and fine is not bad enough) as it is very bad.

The most likely outcome if you plead guilty is a fine in the region of £400-500, and a conviction that will show up on your record for 12 months. However, before you decide how to plead it might be worth a consultation with a solicitor.

It doesn't have to be a railway specialist, any competent criminal brief should be able to advise you on your best course of action.

 

[R1971]

how should I word my response, as I don't want to over do it but equally want to work it right. would welcome any suggestions as a private message please
for anyone reading this and possible doing as I have done, don't it is not worth the worry trust me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was expecting at least £1000.00 fine and criminal record, I deserve it short and sweet its just the knowing the best way to respond to them without them thinking I am not regretting my actions because oh boy I certainly am.

 

[Mojo]

Your response needs to make reference to the fact your sister was not aware that the pass had been taken. Tfl rarely do out of court settlements,

It was LUL that rarely used to do out of court settlements. A couple of years ago the LUL prosecutions department was merged with the TfL prosecutions department and all prosecutions are now handled by TfL, who are much more likely to accept an out of court settlement, although in comparison to private Tocs are probably still less likely to accept one for misuse of a free travel permit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was expecting at least £1000.00 fine and criminal record, I deserve it short and sweet its just the knowing the best way to respond to them without them thinking I am not regretting my actions because oh boy I certainly am.

The fine will almost certainly be nowhere near £1,000, but if found guilty, you will have to pay additional costs on top of the fine which will push the amount up.

 

[najaB]

The fine will almost certainly be nowhere near £1,000, but if found guilty, you will have to pay additional costs on top of the fine which will push the amount up.

That is why I suggest that you have a consultation with a solicitor before deciding if to plead guilty or not. They may be able to identify a significant flaw in the prosecutor's case which would make it worth attempting to defend the case in court.

If there are none, an early plea gets you a 'discount' on the fine and lower fees.

 

[R1971]

thank you both Mojo and Naja b - sorry but what does Toc mean please?
Should I wait for the next letter or contact a solicitor now?

 

[najaB]

thank you both Mojo and Naja b - sorry but what does Toc mean please?
Should I wait for the next letter or contact a solicitor now?

A TOC is a train operating company. TfL in your case. I would contact a solicitor now - some may offer a free or low cost initial consultation if money is tight.

 

[cjmillsnun]

thank you both Mojo and Naja b - sorry but what does Toc mean please?
Should I wait for the next letter or contact a solicitor now?

TOC is Train Operating company.

It's irrelevant to your case as TfL are dealing with your case.

Wait for the next letter. Which may be a summons or it may be an offer of an out of court settlement. If it's an offer, I'll be blunt, take it. It won't be cheap but its better than a criminal record.

If it is a summons, then is the time to contact the solicitor.

 

[R1971]

TOC is Train Operating company.

It's irrelevant to your case as TfL are dealing with your case.

Wait for the next letter. Which may be a summons or it may be an offer of an out of court settlement. If it's an offer, I'll be blunt, take it. It won't be cheap but its better than a criminal record.

If it is a summons, then is the time to contact the solicitor.

thank you cjmillsnun
If it is a summons which I fully expect is it not to late for the solicitor to do anything (even if they could)?

 

[Darandio]

thank you cjmillsnun
If it is a summons which I fully expect is it not to late for the solicitor to do anything (even if they could)?

It should never be too late until the case has been heard and judged upon.

 

[R1971]

thank you darandio and to all who have took the time to reply.
I think I will wait for the next letter as I suspect it will be a summons - on that note do you have to appear at the court or can you please guilty by post?

 

[najaB]

I think I will wait for the next letter as I suspect it will be a summons - on that note do you have to appear at the court or can you please guilty by post?

An early plea can be made by post.

 

[Master29]

My missus and I use our PAYG Oysters interchangeably. We have no idea which is which!

Same thing here!!

 

[Puffing Devil]

I personally don't believe that a Solicitor will be able to do much more for you here than you can achieve with the appropriate advice from this forum.

From your postings it looks very much as if there is a concrete case against you and that you may well be heading to court.

However, there is always a chance. Wait for the next communication from TFL and post it again here. You will get advice on an appropriate letter to send to TFL.

If it does go to court there is little that a solicitor will be able to do for you. I always found that a defendant who spoke for themselves and showed true remorse was more convincing than an advocate reeling out the same scripting that they use for the majority of their clients. Save your money, plead guilty and take advantage of the reduction in fine for an early guilty plea.

Unfortunately Magistrates' Courts are very high volume places now with little time for serious consideration of low-level offences. The bench will be looking up the offence guidelines as soon as you enter the court and will most likely be looking to plug in your income to generate the penalty before you, or your advocate, have finished speaking.

 

[najaB]

I personally don't believe that a Solicitor will be able to do much more for you here than you can achieve with the appropriate advice from this forum.

Generally I agree with you, but you must always remember that in a face to face consultation a solicitor may elicit material details that haven't been posted on the thread.

There's no harm though in waiting for TfL's next communication before consulting a solicitor.

 

[R1971]

I personally don't believe that a Solicitor will be able to do much more for you here than you can achieve with the appropriate advice from this forum.

From your postings it looks very much as if there is a concrete case against you and that you may well be heading to court.

However, there is always a chance. Wait for the next communication from TFL and post it again here. You will get advice on an appropriate letter to send to TFL.

If it does go to court there is little that a solicitor will be able to do for you. I always found that a defendant who spoke for themselves and showed true remorse was more convincing than an advocate reeling out the same scripting that they use for the majority of their clients. Save your money, plead guilty and take advantage of the reduction in fine for an early guilty plea.

Unfortunately Magistrates' Courts are very high volume places now with little time for serious consideration of low-level offences. The bench will be looking up the offence guidelines as soon as you enter the court and will most likely be looking to plug in your income to generate the penalty before you, or your advocate, have finished speaking.

Thank you Puffing Devil - I have said from the off what I have done was wrong and should be penalised, fare and square it was completely idiotic of me to do what I did end of. Must I attend court or is it case of pleading guilty by post, sorry but having never done this I don't know how it works. I hopefully came across in first communication to them as extremely remorseful which was my intentions. When you take advantage of the reduction in fine (did not know there would be a reduction) for an early guilty plea do you mean wait for the letter, plead guilty by post and they will then write back with the amount to pay? Or is it a must you have to appear in court? Of course if that is the case I would appear in court and absolutely crumble as soon as I stepped foot in the place, not sure what their impression would be of me standing in front of them like a sniffling wreck though, probably thinking I deserve all that is coming to me. What a flippin nightmare.................hindsight is a wonderful thing
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You say Unfortunately Magistrates' Courts are very high volume places now with little time for serious consideration of low-level offences I do not think this is a low level offence, is it deemed as a low level office from a Magistrates Court point of view? Does that mean I probably have a long wait if they take me to court?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you are going to be summonsed to Court to have the matter decided and (if guilty) to have a sentence imposed, then you will have the option to plea 'guilty' by post. However, if you attend in person and still plea 'guilty', it will give you the opportunity, before sentencing, to present your circumstances in mitigation of your culpability and to express any remorse personally. There is a general tendency for Magistrates' Courts to calculate the level of fine with regard to any mitigation and remorse by a credible defendant, record of good character, lack of previous convictions, etc.

An 'early' plea of 'guilty' is one which is made by post on receipt of the summons (thus reducing admin time by all the parties who have to go to Court prepared for a plea either way). The Sentencing Guidelines suggest a sliding scale: a reduction of one third of the sentence where a plea of 'guilty' is made at the first available opportunity, or a reduction of one quarter where the plea of 'guilty' is made after a Court date has been set, and a reduction of just one tenth where the plea of 'guilty' is made as the hearing begins.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Must I attend court or is it case of pleading guilty by post, sorry but having never done this I don't know how it works.

You should be given the option to plead guilty by post. The details should be on the summons, together with forms to complete and return.

When you take advantage of the reduction in fine (did not know there would be a reduction) for an early guilty plea do you mean wait for the letter, plead guilty by post and they will then write back with the amount to pay? Or is it a must you have to appear in court?

See above. There is a 1/3 reduction on the "normal" fine for an early guilty plea, either by post or in person. If the matter goes to court you will be looking at:

A fine of 50% or 100% of your weekly income (That will depend on the final charge on the summons) [Discount of 1/3 on this for an early guilty plea]
A Victim Surcharge of 10% of the fine, minimum of £30.
Compensation for the unpaid fare - the value of the fare avoided
Prosecution Costs.*​

There is an online calculator here: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculator/

You say Unfortunately Magistrates' Courts are very high volume places now with little time for serious consideration of low-level offences I do not think this is a low level offence, is it deemed as a low level office from a Magistrates Court point of view? Does that mean I probably have a long wait if they take me to court?

By low level, I mean something which is normally dealt with quickly by way of a fine, rather than say, a nasty assault which may require probation reports and result in a community penalty or even a prison sentence.

Courts normally have a regular "Private Prosecutions" session, usually once a month, where the TOCs come with all their railway matters. You will normally be allocated to one of these sessions if you do indeed end up in court.

*Prosecution Costs are the one area where it may be useful to have a solicitor to challenge them or even a sympathetic bench. I don't know what TFL usually ask for - sometimes they can appear to be very large in comparison to public prosecutions. However, a solicitor will normally cost you more than any reduction in costs they may be able to argue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you are going to be summonsed to Court to have the matter decided and (if guilty) to have a sentence imposed, then you will have the option to plea 'guilty' by post. However, if you attend in person and still plea 'guilty', it will give you the opportunity, before sentencing, to present your circumstances in mitigation of your culpability and to express any remorse personally. There is a general tendency for Magistrates' Courts to calculate the level of fine with regard to any mitigation and remorse by a credible defendant, record of good character, lack of previous convictions, etc.

An 'early' plea of 'guilty' is one which is made by post on receipt of the summons (thus reducing admin time by all the parties who have to go to Court prepared for a plea either way). The Sentencing Guidelines suggest a sliding scale: a reduction of one third of the sentence where a plea of 'guilty' is made at the first available opportunity, or a reduction of one quarter where the plea of 'guilty' is made after a Court date has been set, and a reduction of just one tenth where the plea of 'guilty' is made as the hearing begins.

Looks like Dave posted when I was typing! All good advice.

 

[R1971]

If you are going to be summonsed to Court to have the matter decided and (if guilty) to have a sentence imposed, then you will have the option to plea 'guilty' by post. However, if you attend in person and still plea 'guilty', it will give you the opportunity, before sentencing, to present your circumstances in mitigation of your culpability and to express any remorse personally. There is a general tendency for Magistrates' Courts to calculate the level of fine with regard to any mitigation and remorse by a credible defendant, record of good character, lack of previous convictions, etc.

An 'early' plea of 'guilty' is one which is made by post on receipt of the summons (thus reducing admin time by all the parties who have to go to Court prepared for a plea either way). The Sentencing Guidelines suggest a sliding scale: a reduction of one third of the sentence where a plea of 'guilty' is made at the first available opportunity, or a reduction of one quarter where the plea of 'guilty' is made after a Court date has been set, and a reduction of just one tenth where the plea of 'guilty' is made as the hearing begins.

Thank you David Newcastle for taking the time to explain, much appreciated. you say sentencing does that mean prison hock:

 

[Puffing Devil]

Thank you David Newcastle for taking the time to explain, much appreciated. you say sentencing does that mean prison hock:

Prison will not be a consideration in this case.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Normally prosecution costs for a guilty plea at the first hearing are a standard amount.

It's if you plead not guilty and a trial is organised that costs start to spiral.

 

[najaB]

you say sentencing does that mean prison hock:

While *technically* it is possible to receive a custodial sentence for ticketing offences I can guarantee that, unless there is something major you haven't told us, there is zero chance that you will receive one.

The sentence in this case will be a fine at worst.

 

[R1971]

While *technically* it is possible to receive a custodial sentence for ticketing offences I can guarantee that, unless there is something major you haven't told us, there is zero chance that you will receive one.



The sentence in this case will be a fine at worst.

I have been completely honest on here with the sequence of events, this is the first time in my life I have ever been in trouble. Never had points, cautions, nothing.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Looks like Dave posted when I was typing! . . . .

Yes, but you had much more to type than in my brief summary!

*Prosecution Costs . . . . . . However, a solicitor will normally cost you more than any reduction in costs they may be able to argue.

I agree - it can be a tricky balance, but for most people, its not one of the most important considerations - though there are some who would charge £1k or more to defend a prosecution and achieve at best, the discharge of a conviction that would never have exceeded two or three hundred (the record of a criminal conviction being the deciding factor perhaps).

. . . you say sentencing does that mean prison hock:

No. A 'sentence' is a phrase covering the range of penalties imposed by a Court after guilt is established, and all personal circumstances have been considered. It may be a Community Service order, a Fine, or a Committal to prison; and may be 'suspended' for a period while the accused can demonstrate that they have not re-offended.

In your circumstances, a fine is the only sentence that is likely to be imposed (in addition to the amounts payable as compensation to the Company for the fares not paid and which may be an estimated amount*, the costs applied for by the prosecuting Company, and the Victim Surcharge which is a percentage of the fine).

*Where PuffingDevil and I both doubted that there would be any benefit from instructing a solicitor, or even taking advice from a 'free' consultation, I will say that if the Company attempts to estimate a cost of other journeys taken on that Oyster card and if that estimate can be demonstrated to be excessive against available facts to the contrary, then there may be a point at which the fees payable to a solicitor will outweigh the reduction in excessive compensation claimed - but only if that excess is claimed, and only if there is satisfactory evidence to undermine the calculation.

 

[R1971]

received a letter from TLF today which states the following

On x date and time you were reported to TFL for an incident whilst using TFL services. The facts of this incident are being investigated which gives us cause to suspect you of historical offences whilst using these services.

you are required to attend an interview under caution in accordance with the police and criminal evidence act 1984, the interview will be in relation to irregular usage of oyster card no xxxx which gives us cause to suspect you of historical offences whilst using Tfl services, contrary to the Tfl conditions of carriage.

You me accompanied at this interview by a friend or by a solicitor (at your own expense) please inform me as soon as possible prior to any interview date arranged if you are being accompanied.

Failure to respond to this letter within the next 7 days may result in the mater being progressed by the prosecutions team.

I guess it is time to speak with a solicitor?

The max time this was used for is 3 - 4 weeks in my calculations, is that classed as historical I don't know, I guess so. there is no other abuse here so not quite sure what is going to happen, I thought I was going to pass out after reading the letter. I just want to pay the fine and move on..................any constructive advice would be much appreciated.