Using season ticket while awaiting refund

[brendan117]

On 15th July my daughter moved from our family home in Oxshott, Surrey to Stockwell in London. She works in central London and had an annual season ticket (“smartcard”) with SWT between Oxshott and London Zones 1 to 6, valid Dec 2016 – Dec 2017. On her last day, she took her ticket into Oxshott station to apply for a refund – after some time the station attendant said he was unable to do the transaction and she would have to phone, where she was told that there was a problem with the refund, but that she would get a refund, ‘though they couldn’t say how much, or when it would be effective from.

Between the 17th July and 22nd August, she continued to use the smartcard between Stockwell and Oxford Circus: since it continued to work, she assumed that her refund was not yet effective. On 22nd August she received a refund of £881 paid directly into her bank account: on calling SWT to ask what the amount was based on, she was told it had been backdated to the date of her original telephone call. She told them she had been using it in the meantime: they said that it “shouldn’t have worked” and that she should stop using it immediately, which she did.

Next thing we got was a request for her to attend an interview under caution: we got the letter on a Friday (she didn’t see it until the Saturday), for an interview the following Wednesday at 10:00 am – this was pretty short notice and not possible for her due to work commitments, so we phoned, and eventually managed to talk to someone who wasn’t familiar with the details of the case, but listened to our explanation, and said that someone would get back to us. Today a letter came saying they feel they have sufficient evidence to prosecute, and asked for £940 to settle out of court (£290 of “fares avoided” and £650 of “operational and administrative costs”). No details of how these figures were calculated were given, although the £290 seems reasonable, if they are basing it on the daily cost of travel between Stockwell and Central London.

Help! What should we do? If they knew she was using a card which had been refunded (even though the refund hadn’t been received), then they could presumably have either cancelled it so it wouldn’t work in the machines, or sent her a letter telling her to stop using it. If they didn’t know she was using it, then when she told them that she had been, they could have simply told her she owed them £290, without any requirement for intimidating letters with associated costs. Either way this could have been sorted out much easier!

 

[BluePenguin]

O dear what a pickle. Technically I suppose she should not have been using it to make journeys whilst waiting for a refund. However, as she was honest and admitted to them that she had used the ticket, the simple solution would have been to pay back the cost of the extra journeys from the amount refunded. Could this be a possibility you could try?

It is not moral for a company to force money out of you for no valid reason. Waiting for a refund on something and using it in the mean time is not wise however. The TOC could easily have deducted the cost any of any journeys made from the refunded amount if they wanted to.

It seems to me from reading the post that had your daughter not mentioned anything she would have gotten away with it. It is surprising that threatening letters have been sent seeing as the only case they have built is based upon a few words uttered on the phone and no hard evidence. Do not admit to anything in an interview - the very fact that they demand one proves they are lacking evidence and have an interest to collect some.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come along to help, but for now here is my 2 cents.

 

[matt_world2004]

I dont think they have any grounds for the money she was told by customer service they didnt know what date the refund would apply from

When she applied for the refund the second time and she then declared that she had used the ticket subsequently to the original phone call ; based on that the customer service operative should have made sure the refund only applied from either the moment she made the second call or after the last journey was made.

 

[bb21]

When she applied for the refund the second time and she then declared that she had used the ticket subsequently to the original phone call ; based on that the customer service operative should have made sure the refund only applied from either the moment she made the second call or after the last journey was made.

That is not possible because at that point the refund was already with the ticket holder.

 

[bb21]

It seems to me from reading the post that had your daughter not mentioned anything she would have gotten away with it.

Apart from the fact that records would show further usage?

I am however surprised by the outcome if everything were as described I must say.

 

[furlong]

How can a contract like this be cancelled without agreement/notification of the date from which the cancellation is to take effect?

When the refund was originally applied for at the station, was any paperwork filled in and signed (and was a copy provided)? If so, reread this carefully in full.

You'd be right to insist on a detailed breakdown of the large costs - nobody should profit out of money accepted in lieu of a prosecution, but just recoup legitimate costs incurred directly dealing with the matter - and consider whether a court might see reasons to split the costs incurred between the parties in some proportion.

If you make no progress yourself, the situation might benefit from a review by a solicitor who could write an appropriately-worded letter.

 

[AlterEgo]

The first thing I would do is ring up and ask for a copy of the relevant call recordings.

 

[bb21]

I'm intrigued by the exact conversation that took place over the phone, for both calls.

I take it that the calls were made by the ticket holder herself?

 

[sheff1]

The cost of a monthly season ticket from Oxshott to London Zone 1-6 is £291.50, so an amount of £290 for use between 17 July & 22 Aug sounds about right when taking the discounted price for a annual ticket.

I agree that a review by a solicitor who could write an appropriately worded letter may be the best way to resolve this ..... but a solicitor will cost ... however, some home insurances policies offer free legal advice, or even expenses cover, on personal matters and, if you have that, you could start there.

On a general point, which may be relevant when challenging the matter, I understand that when you apply for a season ticket refund at a station the ticket should be taken off you and refund forms filled in. Do you know why this did not happen with your daughter's ticket ?

 

[furlong]

I'd suggest the first thing would be to establish the date from which - according to the law - the contract for travel actually ended. It seems that one party considered this was the date of the first phone call, while the other party considered this was not until notification of a date was received or the card stopped working, and in this case it actually took the form of money being discovered in the bank account. You'll need to consider all the applicable terms and conditions, the contents of any correspondence or paperwork and the contents of the phone calls.

You'll then also want to examine internal policies and procedures regarding deactivation of smartcard tickets (including notifications) and consider whether they were followed appropriately in this instance and whether they were adequate and reasonable. Your comment that it "shouldn't have worked" suggests the company might already have accepted some level of culpability for the situation.

 

[cuccir]

The first half of Furlong's post is useful, but I don't see the relevance of internal policies here.

It is worth pointing out the potential severity of any prosecution (a fine, a criminal record for a year, and a note on any future DBS checks). So the key is to establish what communication your daughter has received.

Check everything that she has copies of and get her to double check emails. Check any terms and conditions document too. If as AlterEgo suggests it is possible to get phone records then even better. If you've not done so already, then get your daughter to write down her memory of the conversations.

If after this you're sure your daughter is correct, write a concise factual response detailing why you won't pay the amount. You could if feeling conciliatory include a cheque for the £290 to cover fares for the refunded period. See what response you then get - if not good, then that is the stage to contact a solicitor.

I might also suggest trying to call once more - ideally someone in the prosecution department. I suspect that a conversation with the right person could resolve this instantly. If that didn't work, I'd then do everything in writing in order to keep records.

 

[jumble]

The first half of Furlong's post is useful, but I don't see the relevance of internal policies here.

It is worth pointing out the potential severity of any prosecution (a fine, a criminal record for a year, and a note on any future DBS checks). So the key is to establish what communication your daughter has received.

Check everything that she has copies of and get her to double check emails. Check any terms and conditions document too. If as AlterEgo suggests it is possible to get phone records then even better. If you've not done so already, then get your daughter to write down her memory of the conversations.

If after this you're sure your daughter is correct, write a concise factual response detailing why you won't pay the amount. You could if feeling conciliatory include a cheque for the £290 to cover fares for the refunded period. See what response you then get - if not good, then that is the stage to contact a solicitor.

I might also suggest trying to call once more - ideally someone in the prosecution department. I suspect that a conversation with the right person could resolve this instantly. If that didn't work, I'd then do everything in writing in order to keep records.

What would concern me is that for example Thameslink key smartcard web page for refunds explicitly asks
" When did you last use this ticket for travel? if applicable"

Did the SWT phone operator processing the refund ask the same or a similar question and if so what was your daughter's answer?

Jumble

 

[brendan117]

I decided to take the "phone and discuss" route: once I finally got through to the SWT Prosecutions Manager she was extremely understanding. We agreed that there had been faults on both sides, and the upshot is that they will drop the case! Incidentally, not all calls to the customer service desk are recorded!
Thank you South West Trains - I'm sorry you lost the franchise!

 

[cuccir]

Good news and glad that common sense prevailed!

 

[maniacmartin]

Out of interest, do they still require the £290 to be paid?

 

[brendan117]

No payment required!