Using return tickets as rail rovers

[Fermiboson]

A 7 day standard class rail rover is 376.80 pounds (Railcard price). That's a lot of money, especially if one does not plan to use the full 7 days.

On the other hand, you are effectively allowed four days of travel (with relevant restrictions) on an off-peak return ticket (one overnight break of journey for each leg).

Therefore, if one were to purchase an off-peak return ticket between two stations at opposite ends of the country (say, Plymouth to Inverness), would it be possible to make on virtually any service, including local stopping services, heading vaguely in a similar cardinal direction as the destination for four days? If so, what is the best combination for this stunt (in terms of cost, rail mileage covered, scenic routes on the way, maximum number of stations, etc etc)?

 

[pedr]

On most off peak return tickets you are permitted to break the return journey as many times as you want, up until the expiry date of the ticket. You do have to be making one journey along one permitted route, I think, so you can’t buy another ticket to travel from halfway through one route to pick up a train you could have caught on a different route, though. And clearly doubling back or going over the same part of the route twice is not permitted using one portion of the ticket.

Whether or not this could lead to some confused or challenging conversations may depend on the trains used, whether this is a paper or e- ticket, and what scans/marks are written on it, but it is valid and there are some unusual combinations of trains which could be used, if you’re happy to explain what you’re doing!

 

[MrJeeves]

Therefore, if one were to purchase an off-peak return ticket between two stations at opposite ends of the country (say, Plymouth to Inverness), would it be possible to make on virtually any service, including local stopping services, heading vaguely in a similar cardinal direction as the destination for four days? If so, what is the best combination for this stunt (in terms of cost, rail mileage covered, scenic routes on the way, maximum number of stations, etc etc)?

Some people have done this with success, especially those who have larger discounts than railcards available to them (e.g., PRIV holders, travel agent discounts, etc.).

I would suggest your example is probably one of the best, perhaps only improved upon with a ticket to/from Thurso or somewhere in the north-east corner of Scotland, as well as using Penzance for the other end? Not sure if that means via Inverness isn't valid, though.

 

[The exile]

Most people using Rovers will double back at some time - which is not normally permitted with return tickets. Believe the outward portion of a ticket ceases to be valid once the return has started to be used. Difficult to enforce with paper tickets; presumably a lot easier with e-tickets etc.

 

[Deafdoggie]

You do have to be making one journey along one permitted route, I think, so you can’t buy another ticket to travel from halfway through one route to pick up a train you could have caught on a different route, though. And clearly doubling back or going over the same part of the route twice is not permitted using one portion of the ticket.

How would they know? On, say, a Plymouth-Inverness paper ticket, if I arrived at Crewe purchased a ticket to York, went via Manchester and resumed Northwards from York? I guess an e-ticket would know (but would staff care?) And as you held a ticket for the whole route I can't see any harm.
If you went to Crewe & purchased a single to Birmingham then used the original ticket to travel via York, I can see how that's wrong as, effectively, you're doubling back, albeit on a different route.

 

[MrJeeves]

How would they know? On, say, a Plymouth-Inverness paper ticket, if I arrived at Crewe purchased a ticket to York, went via Manchester and resumed Northwards from York? I guess an e-ticket would know (but would staff care?) And as you held a ticket for the whole route I can't see any harm.
If you went to Crewe & purchased a single to Birmingham then used the original ticket to travel via York, I can see how that's wrong as, effectively, you're doubling back, albeit on a different route.

They wouldn't.

That doesn't make it permitted (or legal, actually).

 

[Hadders]

How would they know? On, say, a Plymouth-Inverness paper ticket, if I arrived at Crewe purchased a ticket to York, went via Manchester and resumed Northwards from York? I guess an e-ticket would know (but would staff care?) And as you held a ticket for the whole route I can't see any harm.
If you went to Crewe & purchased a single to Birmingham then used the original ticket to travel via York, I can see how that's wrong as, effectively, you're doubling back, albeit on a different route.

With an eticket there's a scan history. With a paper ticket if the ticket is marked with a ziffa type stamper (as my ticket was yesterday) then this identifies exactly which service you were on.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Therefore, if one were to purchase an off-peak return ticket between two stations at opposite ends of the country (say, Plymouth to Inverness), would it be possible to make on virtually any service, including local stopping services, heading vaguely in a similar cardinal direction as the destination for four days?

Be many scenic corners of the GB network that would be "off limits" without purchasing additional tickets if the main ticket were Plymouth/inverness. Such as Mallaig, Whitby, Scarborough, Holyhead, Aberystwyth, anywhere in West Wales, Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, Kent, Cornwall and undoubtedly many other places / lines / locations.

 

[MrJeeves]

With a paper ticket if the ticket is marked with a ziffa type stamper (as my ticket was yesterday) then this identifies exactly which service you were on.

Unless you're quick and rub off the ink...

I've done this (well at least smudged it into oblivion once without realising, then rubbed it off entirely).

 

[AlterEgo]

A 7 day standard class rail rover is 376.80 pounds (Railcard price). That's a lot of money, especially if one does not plan to use the full 7 days.

On the other hand, you are effectively allowed four days of travel (with relevant restrictions) on an off-peak return ticket (one overnight break of journey for each leg).

You’re allowed a calendar month, up to the expiry of the ticket.

Therefore, if one were to purchase an off-peak return ticket between two stations at opposite ends of the country (say, Plymouth to Inverness), would it be possible to make on virtually any service, including local stopping services, heading vaguely in a similar cardinal direction as the destination for four days? If so, what is the best combination for this stunt (in terms of cost, rail mileage covered, scenic routes on the way, maximum number of stations, etc etc)?

You can’t just go in a vaguely similar direction - you must always be on a Permitted Route for that ticket. So you can’t quite use them as rovers, although there is a huge amount of flexibility there.

 

[The exile]

There are certainly cases where a season ticket can act almost as a rover (without time restrictions) for an area that doesn’t fit into particular rover areas. Southampton area to Ramsgate area was given as an example once, IIRC. You just need there to be lots of permitted routes between the start and the destination.

 

[island]

You’re allowed a calendar month, up to the expiry of the ticket.

On the return leg yes.

 

[Fermiboson]

You’re allowed a calendar month, up to the expiry of the ticket.

You can’t just go in a vaguely similar direction - you must always be on a Permitted Route for that ticket. So you can’t quite use them as rovers, although there is a huge amount of flexibility there.

I presume that you are not allowed to spread the return journey over the entire calendar month?

I understand that once upon a time there was a website where you could look up permitted routes, but it seems to have stopped working. Is there a quick way to determine what the permitted route for a given journey is without physically obtaining the rulebook? (Also, would permitted routes differentiate between local and fast services?)

Also, I could imagine some routes that while not strictly on the permitted route, could be explained to any questioning staff by feigning ignorance. "Oh, I spent the night in Sheffield because I have friends there, so I'm now taking this leisurely local stopping service through the Hope Valley because I didn't know better and hopped on the first train to Manchester."

 

[MrJeeves]

I presume that you are not allowed to spread the return journey over the entire calendar month?

You most certainly can!

 

[jfollows]

I presume that you are not allowed to spread the return journey over the entire calendar month?

I understand that once upon a time there was a website where you could look up permitted routes, but it seems to have stopped working. Is there a quick way to determine what the permitted route for a given journey is without physically obtaining the rulebook? (Also, would permitted routes differentiate between local and fast services?)

You can take up to a month for the return journey with multiple overnight or longer breaks of journey.
The ‘ATOC Routeing Guide’ is the authority for permitted routes, https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide, or you try and generate itineraries for tickets using ticket booking sites.

 

[MrJeeves]

I understand that once upon a time there was a website where you could look up permitted routes, but it seems to have stopped working. Is there a quick way to determine what the permitted route for a given journey is without physically obtaining the rulebook? (Also, would permitted routes differentiate between local and fast services?)

There is a website, but I wouldn't call it quick!

Find any appropriate routeing points: https://data.atoc.org/rp_calc
Look the combinations up here: http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/yellow_pages.pdf
Access each map here: https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

Try and draw routes which
(a) go across all map combinations for each set of maps;
(b) cross over to the next map at the first possible opportunity on the route you are drawing;
(c) do not double-back or use the same routeing point more than once;
...and likely some more nuances which I haven't thought of in this short message.

If the list of maps contains LONDON, then you should look at the routes from point A to London, and London to point B, too.

 

[jfollows]

Plymouth to Inverness, to take your example, is valid on many routes, shown at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps:

That's any of:

• LONDON
• MP + CG + EG + EI
• MP + CG + EG + IE
• MP + CG + EG + KI
• MP + CG + EI
• MP + CG + GI
• MP + CG + IE
• MP + CG + KI
• PE + EG + EI
• PE + EG + IE
• PE + EG + KI
• PE + EI
• PE + GI
• PE + IE
• PE + KI
• PY + YA
• PY + YA + PA
• PY + YI

so there's a lot of scope.
Note that the route via LONDON is recursive, in that you then look up valid routes Plymouth-London and London-Inverness. Sometimes ticket restrictions can override some of these routes, eg "NOT VIA LONDON".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2024 ==

On the other hand, you are effectively allowed four days of travel (with relevant restrictions) on an off-peak return ticket (one overnight break of journey for each leg).

This is wrong, if you have a ticket which does not forbid break of journey then you can break your journey as many times as you want within the ticket’s validity period (eg one month).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2024 ==

(Also, would permitted routes differentiate between local and fast services?)

No, “any permitted” tickets are valid on all normal operators’ trains, fast or slow.

 

[Fermiboson]

Thank you for all the info and clarifications. Quite surprised to see that without LONDON it doesn't allow travel on the ECML. With it, however, I think it includes virtually all major stations to the north and west of London, though notably not routes (it doesn't allow you to switch from Birmingham to the ECML either through Leicester or Yorkshire, for example. And as I understand Carlisle - Newcastle is a popular route to go from the West Coast to Edinburgh, especially when weird things happen on the WCML, but it isn't allowed. It also doesn't seem to allow for Sheffield/Leeds - Manchester, although I would expect that lots of people have used that route to go from London to Manchester for one reason or another.) Overall a lot more restrictive than I expected, but it was quite literal wishful thinking on my part, so.

 

[jfollows]

I think it's also worth noting that this is currently a hypothetical fun exercise, but at the point at which it's actually attempted there seem to be significant numbers of poorly trained railway staff who do not know the rules, and incorrectly refuse valid tickets on valid routes. This from the number of reports to that effect on this forum. It means that a traveller needs to be especially sure of the rules before attempting an "unusual" trip, personally I've only really encountered staff who don't know the rules but "let you off" or defer to my better knowledge, but there are numerous reports of more heavy-handed approaches, unfortunately, which I generally ascribe to poor staff training coupled with an unwillingness to learn properly.

 

[Watershed]

I presume that you are not allowed to spread the return journey over the entire calendar month?

You are - you can break your journey at any intermediate station on a permitted route. You can do so as often as you like and recommence your journey whenever it suits you. The only limitations are the time restrictions associated with the ticket or Railcard (if any) and the overall month's validity.

I understand that once upon a time there was a website where you could look up permitted routes, but it seems to have stopped working. Is there a quick way to determine what the permitted route for a given journey is without physically obtaining the rulebook? (Also, would permitted routes differentiate between local and fast services?)

The easiest way is probably to use a site such as TrainSplit that allows you to enter multiple 'via' points to customise the itinerary, turn off split tickets, and then see if you are offered a through ticket with the same route (e.g. 'not via London') as the one you hold or are thinking of buying.

There is no differentiation between the types of trains you can take in the Routeing Guide; if you are travelling on a permitted route then your ticket is valid. The only way there might indirectly be differentiation is through any operator restrictions that apply to your ticket (e.g. if it's a cheaper "WMT only" one) or through time restrictions that might apply to specific departures (e.g. GWR do this for a lot of their Off-Peak fares from Paddington, thus allowing you to still use Elizabeth line services as they aren't enumerated in the restriction text).

 

[m00036]

Apologies if I’ve missed it but the outbound portion is typically valid for less than a full month (normally 5 days for an anytime return).

 

[Fermiboson]

You are - you can break your journey at any intermediate station on a permitted route. You can do so as often as you like and recommence your journey whenever it suits you. The only limitations are the time restrictions associated with the ticket or Railcard (if any) and the overall month's validity.


The easiest way is probably to use a site such as TrainSplit that allows you to enter multiple 'via' points to customise the itinerary, turn off split tickets, and then see if you are offered a through ticket with the same route (e.g. 'not via London') as the one you hold or are thinking of buying.

There is no differentiation between the types of trains you can take in the Routeing Guide; if you are travelling on a permitted route then your ticket is valid. The only way there might indirectly be differentiation is through any operator restrictions that apply to your ticket (e.g. if it's a cheaper "WMT only" one) or through time restrictions that might apply to specific departures (e.g. GWR do this for a lot of their Off-Peak fares from Paddington, thus allowing you to still use Elizabeth line services as they aren't enumerated in the restriction text).

I've used TrainSplit before, but it does seem to miss some things. For example, for Sheffield <-> Milton Keynes it obstinately refuses (or at least it did when I did it last month) to go via Nottingham and Leicester.

 

[Cantab26]

I've used TrainSplit before, but it does seem to miss some things. For example, for Sheffield <-> Milton Keynes it obstinately refuses (or at least it did when I did it last month) to go via Nottingham and Leicester.

That is because via Nottingham and Leicester is not a permitted route from Sheffield to Milton Keynes, unless you travel via London.

 

[island]

Apologies if I’ve missed it but the outbound portion is typically valid for less than a full month (normally 5 days for an anytime return).

And one day (two with a permitted overnight break of journey) for an off-peak return.

 

[Class800]

A 7 day standard class rail rover is 376.80 pounds (Railcard price). That's a lot of money, especially if one does not plan to use the full 7 days.

On the other hand, you are effectively allowed four days of travel (with relevant restrictions) on an off-peak return ticket (one overnight break of journey for each leg).

Therefore, if one were to purchase an off-peak return ticket between two stations at opposite ends of the country (say, Plymouth to Inverness), would it be possible to make on virtually any service, including local stopping services, heading vaguely in a similar cardinal direction as the destination for four days? If so, what is the best combination for this stunt (in terms of cost, rail mileage covered, scenic routes on the way, maximum number of stations, etc etc)?

It's got a lot harder to do this given LNER no longer have return tickets. In the past a London to Edinburgh or Haymarket return could be used as pretty much a rover for the midlands and north. Not every line, but a great majority of them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2024 ==

You’re allowed a calendar month, up to the expiry of the ticket.

You can’t just go in a vaguely similar direction - you must always be on a Permitted Route for that ticket. So you can’t quite use them as rovers, although there is a huge amount of flexibility there.

A permitted route yes. Sometimes there are so many permitted routes that it's impossible to know if someone switches from one permitted route to another in a way that itself isn't strictly permitted. I was planning to do such a trip but with LNER no longer doing returns it got binned.

 

[xotGD]

You would think this permitted routes malarkey could be automated. Just enter your origin and destination into a web site, and up pops a map illustrating the routes you can take.

Anyone IT-savvy prepared to take it on?

 

[Jan Mayen]

You would think this permitted routes malarkey could be automated. Just enter your origin and destination into a web site, and up pops a map illustrating the routes you can take.

Anyone IT-savvy prepared to take it on?

Possibly more complicated when you have to include the easements, which change all the time. I understand someone did do such a website, but access is restricted to avoid pricing managers deciding they didn't intend a ticket from A to C should be valid via B.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Possibly more complicated when you have to include the easements, which change all the time. I understand someone did do such a website, but access is restricted to avoid pricing managers deciding they didn't intend a ticket from A to C should be valid via B.

It cuts both ways. I once said on these forums that a ticket from Crewe to Birmingham should be valid via Stoke & it got changed the next day so it was!

 

[MrJeeves]

Anyone IT-savvy prepared to take it on?

I've thought about it a number of times, but I don't think the electronic routeing guide data is public like other data is.

Would be possible to extract it from the website but that seems a bit excessive.