Using other operators during delays

[MatthewE707]

I'm pretty sure the answer to this is yes, but I just want to check in case

If you're reserved on an Avanti service from, say, Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street, which is cancelled, do you have to travel on the next Avanti service (and not London Northwestern) to Liverpool, even if that would result in missing your connection in Liverpool. What if you were booked on that specific train out of Liverpool - presumably you just have to get the next train by that operator there as well, but the delays could easily add up.

 

[jfollows]

If you have an advance ticket, yes, unless acceptance by a different operator is formally granted, usually during major disruption.
If you have a different ticket, you can travel according to the terms of the ticket, which will probably be to allow you to use any operator.

Delay Repay is the “solution” when delays add up, paid by the first operator to delay you.

Avanti and others also allow you to travel on the previous train in case of cancellation, of course you might not know about the cancellation early enough to take advantage of this.

 

[MatthewE707]

So if the two segments of the journey were bought as separate tickets, the first one on an Avanti train, and the second on another operator, say EMR, and the delay of the Avanti train caused you to miss the EMR train, all the delay repay comes from Avanti?

 

[jfollows]

So if the two segments of the journey were bought as separate tickets, the first one on an Avanti train, and the second on another operator, say EMR, and the delay of the Avanti train caused you to miss the EMR train, all the delay repay comes from Avanti?

Yes

 

[MatthewE707]

Thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2025 ==

Having looked more closely on the booking site, it is an off-peak day single from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street. I've selected an Avanti train, but is this valid on London Northwestern services too? The ticket restrictions don't specify.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2025 ==

Having looked more closely on the booking site, it is an off-peak day single from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street. I've selected an Avanti train, but is this valid on London Northwestern services too? The ticket restrictions don't specify.

If it's routed "Avanti only" then it is only valid on Avanti. This should be shown if you look under the ticket details. If it's routed "not via Manchester" then it's valid on either operator.

The "Avanti only" ticket generally costs just 10p less so it really shouldn't exist. It's a blatant trap for the unwary brought in to raise money for Avanti (at the expensive of WMT) in the pre-Covid era when each franchise tried to maximise its own income.

 

[MatthewE707]

If it's routed "Avanti only" then it is only valid on Avanti. This should be shown if you look under the ticket details. If it's routed "not via Manchester" then it's valid on either operator.

The "Avanti only" ticket generally costs just 10p less so it really shouldn't exist. It's a blatant trap for the unwary brought in to raise money for Avanti (at the expensive of WMT) in the pre-Covid era when each franchise tried to maximise its own income.

Thank you - it does say "not via Manchester" so that's good to know it's more flexible than I was expecting

 

[trainophile]

There's a lot fewer stops on the Avantis than the WMTs though, which is an added advantage to the 10p saving!

 

[styles]

There's a lot fewer stops on the Avantis than the WMTs though, which is an added advantage to the 10p saving!

Isn't the 10p more expensive ticket also valid on Avanti as it's not operator-restricted?

 

[jfollows]

Isn't the 10p more expensive ticket also valid on Avanti as it's not operator-restricted?

Yes.
I get the same at Wilmslow; Virgin & Avanti used to offer a genuine saving on tickets restricted to their trains (say 25% off or more) but now they just try and trick people into paying 10p less, when the unrestricted “any permitted” ticket for 10p more is by far a better deal for a return ticket anyway.

The reason they do it is because they get 100% of the “Avanti only” fare whereas they only get a percentage of the “any permitted” fare, say 25%, based on service frequency. 100% of £10 is more than 25% of £10.10; the exact figures are different because I made them up.

I used to pay their ~75% fare but they got greedy and I’m not stupid, so I always buy the +10p ticket valid for all trains now.

 

[MatthewE707]

If you have an advance ticket booked on a specific train, how long before the train will the ticket barriers accept the ticket? I know (at least at my local station) the barriers don't accept off-peak tickets until after the last peak train has departed

 

[Watershed]

If you have an advance ticket booked on a specific train, how long before the train will the ticket barriers accept the ticket? I know (at least at my local station) the barriers don't accept off-peak tickets until after the last peak train has departed

For paper tickets, the booked train isn't encoded on the magnetic stripe so the barriers either accept or reject the ticket depending on how the station operator has configured the barriers. Most just accept them, but GTR reject them as a rule.

For eTickets, where the barcode payload contains the details of the booked trains, it again varies depending on the operator but I would expect it to be in the range of 15-45 minutes before departure.

 

[jfollows]

If you have an advance ticket booked on a specific train, how long before the train will the ticket barriers accept the ticket? I know (at least at my local station) the barriers don't accept off-peak tickets until after the last peak train has departed

It’s stupid but I believe it’s a local implementation, I think I recall Coventry doing this in the past. It’s similar to ticket machines refusing to sell off-peak tickets until 09:31 when there’s a 09:31 departure on which they’re valid. The railways are happy to say that people need to take responsibility for having a valid railcard yet they implement these stupid restrictions.

I mean, if I want to get to the station an hour before my advance ticket departure time, why not?

 

[trainophile]

My tickets kept rejecting at the barrier of a TfW station, and I asked why, and was told that with an Advance they need to manually check it to make sure it's for the right time. I'd have thought the barriers could be programmed to do that.

 

[jfollows]

My tickets kept rejecting at the barrier of a TfW station, and I asked why, and was told that with an Advance they need to manually check it to make sure it's for the right time. I'd have thought the barriers could be programmed to do that.

In general, I think the barriers can be set to reject certain types of tickets, eg advance tickets, so that they can be checked by a “trained“ human, but I’m not convinced the barriers can be trained to do the same.

 

[Haywain]

I'd have thought the barriers could be programmed to do that.

It's a choice of accept or reject, that's all.

 

[MatthewE707]

So Northern, TPE and EMR accept each other's tickets during disruption. But if, say, you were booked on a specific EMR train from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road. You turn up at the station in plenty of time and find the EMR train is running 30 minutes late (for example). Could you then get a Northern or TPE train to arrive in Manchester less late, or do you just have to wait the extra time for your late train?

And would an alternative reasonable route allow travelling to Manchester Victoria instead of Oxford Road?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So Northern, TPE and EMR accept each other's tickets during disruption. But if, say, you were booked on an EMR train from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road. You turn up at the station in plenty of time and find the EMR train is running 30 minutes late (for example). Could you then get a Northern or TPE train to arrive in Manchester less late, or do you just have to wait the extra time for your late train?

And would an alternative reasonable route allow travelling to Manchester Victoria instead of Oxford Road?

The general advice for fringe cases like this is to try and find the guard of the train you want to get, and ask them if you can travel.

Ultimately, regardless of what the rules say, it's what the guy in charge of the train says that goes.

 

[Bertie the bus]

So Northern, TPE and EMR accept each other's tickets during disruption. But if, say, you were booked on an EMR train from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road. You turn up at the station in plenty of time and find the EMR train is running 30 minutes late (for example). Could you then get a Northern or TPE train to arrive in Manchester less late, or do you just have to wait the extra time for your late train?

No I don't think you can. I'm fairly certain the automatic acceptance only relates to train cancellations, not train delays, so unless they have arranged acceptance you have to wait for your booked service.

 

[Rail Ranger]

It would be good if tickets valid on any TOC between the two points actually said so on the ticket.

 

[jfollows]

It would be good if tickets valid on any TOC between the two points actually said so on the ticket.

They do, but maybe you have to know what to look for.
If they’re not advance tickets and they aren’t explicitly restricted to an operator, then they’re valid on any.
ANY PERMITTED or “.” are also indicators.

 

[Rail Ranger]

"ANY PERMITTED" is meaningless as far as the public is concerned. Who is to know which trains are permitted?

 

[jfollows]

"ANY PERMITTED" is meaningless as far as the public is concerned. Who is to know which trains are permitted?

It’s more meaningful than “.”!

 

[Haywain]

"ANY PERMITTED" is meaningless as far as the public is concerned. Who is to know which trains are permitted?

It actually refers to the route(s) you can take*, but is also where you would see if there is a restriction on which operator you can use.


*It means you can take any of the permitted routes, not that any route is permitted!

 

[Rail Ranger]

"Any Permitted" is of course a legacy term from BR. Nowadays many (or most) tickets sold are advances for particular TOCs. So there is a need for "ANY TRAIN COMPANY" wording to make it clear that the ticket can be used on any TOC for that journey.

 

[Lewisham2221]

"Any Permitted" is of course a legacy term from BR. Nowadays many (or most) tickets sold are advances for particular TOCs. So there is a need for "ANY TRAIN COMPANY" wording to make it clear that the ticket can be used on any TOC for that journey.

Not really, the opposite is the case - if your ticket is not valid on any TOC, it will state the TOC(s) it can be used on.

 

[Rail Ranger]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of the traveller who is neither an enthusiast or an employee of the railways. Passengers are looking for crystal clear information, not outdated and misleading industry jargon.

 

[styles]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of the traveller who is neither an enthusiast or an employee of the railways. Passengers are looking for crystal clear information, not outdated and misleading industry jargon.

That is mostly found in the conditions of travel, which, in short, says a journey can be comprised of multiple tickets. The CoT then just needs reading in that context to see e.g. delay compensation is based on a journey being delayed.

Nothing in there really says that a ticket loses its operator specific conditions in case of delay.

Some split ticket retailers do try and simplify split tickets also, or have FAQs for it. It's a bit of a balancing act though because there is some inherent complexity in it.

The solution is of course to restructure fares such that split tickets aren't necessary (or at least aren't necessary for quite so many journeys - split tickets can save money in other countries but it's rarely on the same scale as GB). And restructuring the fares system is no trivial task.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The solution is of course to restructure fares such that split tickets aren't necessary

When the fare from A to C exceeds the fare from A to B plus the fare from B to C why shouldn't the fare from A to C be priced as the sum of the component parts? So work out the split on the fly, but just issue one ticket.

 

[Haywain]

why shouldn't the fare from A to C be priced as the sum of the component parts?

Because the through fare can have different restrictions to the split fares and be valid on different trains. You get what you pay for (not always, but in princple).