Using London International CIV with Calais ticket

[Nicholas43]

As I read the rules, I can use (a) a Norwich - London International CIV return ticket with (b) a London Terminals to Calais day return plus (c) HS supplement to do the following route:
Norwich to Stratford
walk through Westfield hell to Stratford International
Stratford International to Dover to Calais.
If I (unexpectedly, of course) don't use the return half of the London<-> Calais, and return using a single P&O boat ticket Calais>Dover, and a single Dover>Stratford International, can I use the return half of my CIV ticket Norwich - London to travel Stratford to Norwich
(a) in theory
(b) in practice, if that's likely to be different?

 

[Haywain]

I don't believe you are entitled to use the CIV ticket for such a journey as the Calais ticket does not involve any rail travel outside the UK, and CIV rules are there to provide protection for international RAIL journeys.

 

[furlong]

I don't believe you are entitled to use the CIV ticket for such a journey as the Calais ticket does not involve any rail travel outside the UK, and CIV rules are there to provide protection for international RAIL journeys.

Indeed - I think day returns are excluded.

 

[Nicholas43]

I think day returns are excluded.

I can't see anything in the CIV rules which says that, and Eurostar will sell a same day return Oxford (for example) to Paris which includes Oxford-London ESTAR CIV anytime return Oxford-St Pancras.

 

[furlong]

Eurostar will sell a same day return Oxford (for example) to Paris which includes Oxford-London ESTAR CIV anytime return Oxford-St Pancras.

A Eurostar day return includes rail travel on the continent. A day return to Calais does not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see anything in the CIV rules which says that

But I think the rules do say that tickets need to state on them that CIV applies. For Calais only day returns are available and none of them state CIV.

 

[34D]

Is the situation different if the OP buys a return from Calais Ville to les Fontinettes and has a little ride there?

 

[Haywain]

Is the situation different if the OP buys a return from Calais Ville to les Fontinettes and has a little ride there?

No, because it is not a through ticket, and is not designed to be. The day return is to Calais, not Calais Ville or Calais stations, so there is no implication that rail travel is involved on the French side.

 

[Nicholas43]

The CIV rules say

§ 1 These Uniform Rules shall apply to every contract of carriage of
passengers by rail for reward or free of charge, when the place of departure
[such as London Terminals] and the place of destination [such as Calais] are
situated in two different Member States, irrespective of the domicile or
the place of business and the nationality of the parties to the contract
of carriage.

and

§ 3 When international carriage being the subject of a single contract of carriage includes carriage by sea [such as Dover<>Calais] or
transfrontier carriage by inland waterway as a supplement to carriage
by rail, these Uniform Rules shall apply if the carriage by sea or inland
waterway is performed on services included in the lists of services
provided for in Article 24 § 1 of the Convention.

So far, I can't find any of these lists on line. Surely Stena Dover<>Calais was on one? I hope P&O is now.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I thought someone had previously mentioned that the London-Calais day return does not have CIV printed on it, therefore it isn't covered?

 

[Nicholas43]

I thought someone had previously mentioned that the London-Calais day return does not have CIV printed on it, therefore it isn't covered?

Indeed. But if (which I haven't yet succeeded in verifying) P&O Dover<>Calais is on one of the lists provided for in Article 24 § 1 of the Convention, then the Convention applies, whatever is or isn't printed on the ticket. Like that a dog is a dog even if it says it's a pig.

 

[Hadders]

I thought someone had previously mentioned that the London-Calais day return does not have CIV printed on it, therefore it isn't covered?

I agree. I seem to remember seeing something on here about this not being covered.

 

[gordonthemoron]

AFAIR all German rail tickets have CIV on them, even domestic only ones

 

[Be3G]

Indeed. But if (which I haven't yet succeeded in verifying) P&O Dover<>Calais is on one of the lists provided for in Article 24 § 1 of the Convention, then the Convention applies, whatever is or isn't printed on the ticket. Like that a dog is a dog even if says it's a pig.

Here is the list – and P&O Dover to Calais is included.

 

[lyndhurst25]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/44929.aspx

still suggests to me that a London International CIV ticket can be used in conjunction with Dover-Calais SailRail. I have brought this up previously and some one suggested that it was no longer valid and that this webpage was "out of date". Well it is still up there and as NRE is supposed to be the definitive source of information on rail ticketing then that argument doesn't hold water for me.

 

[Nicholas43]

Here is the list – and P&O Dover to Calais is included.

Thanks a million. So I'm OK going out.
But, I can't use just the return half of a London<>Calais to come back. So I'll have separate contracts with P&O for Calais>Dover, and with SE for Dover> Stratford, and an Abellio Greater Anglia gripper can refuse the return half of a Norwich<>London CIV ticket. (I think.)
So, for this journey, I deduce that I'm better off getting a CIV single out, and the best advance ticket I can find for Dover>Norwich - though I'll have no protection if the boat is late.