Using e-ticket and starting short - what do guards / RPIs do?

[bakerstreet]

Following on from this thread

Ticket on train confusion - penalty fare

Hi all, Debut post here of a regular railway user having a first issue with a revenue protections employee (or really any railway employee). I was travelling recently from Stevenage to London. I believe the service was Thameslink. A couple of barriers were out of order (but I had a suitcase...

www.railforums.co.uk

Whenever I need to start a journey short (ie my ticket is valid from stations before the point at which I board the train) I always buy paper tickets to avoid the issues highlighted in the thread above.

I’ve never attempted this with an e-ticket because of the “ticket bought after departure“ scan issue.

It is likely that at some point paper tickets may become difficult or impossible to buy for some of these journeys.

In a scenario where

– my ticket is not an advance and allows starting short
- I buy the ticket before I board
- I’m boarding at either a gated or ungated station
– my ticket is for stations before the point at which I get on
– I can only buy an e-ticket for a later, or much later train than the one I’m on through a journey planner
– I’m inspected en route.

How would this be dealt with?

Am I likely to need to defend my position?

Short of taking a picture of me at the station by a clock, dated and time stamped which sounds over the top, all I can think of is to approach the guard (where available) upon boarding on each occasion.

Not that it’s necessary for this thread but as background, often I am starting short not to save money, but simply because my return journey is to the origin stated on the ticket, beyond the point where I started the outward journey.

 

[Haywain]

I have started short with eTickets on quite a few occasions and it doesn't get a second glance. However, I also buy the tickets before boarding a train.

 

[bakerstreet]

I have started short with eTickets on quite a few occasions and it doesn't get a second glance. However, I also buy the tickets before boarding a train.

Thanks. Yes – I buy tickets before boarding the train as well that’s not my query

To use an example

- I’m boarding a train that departs at 1500.

- The train departed the origin on my ticket at 1430

- To book that ticket via a journey planner, I may need to buy it for a train which departs the origin on my ticket at 1530 as the 1430 will no longer be for sale.

- with the paper ticket, picked up at my departure station, this is of no issue

- with an e-ticket, however, I am on a train, with a ticket purchased timed at say 1450 - after the departure time at the origin station of 1430 but before the departure time at my boarding station.

How will this be dealt with?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Surely any reasonable and properly trained RPI would, before accusing you of anything, ask questions such as 'where did you get on?'
That way they should realise you were never on the train without a valid ticket

 

[Bletchleyite]

At a gated station the scan at the gateline (make sure you scan even if it would likely* be rejected, then the scan is recorded, even if you then ask staff to let you through) would be evidence you actually entered the system there.

At a non-gated station I can see your point and I'm not sure, it may be better to buy this slightly earlier to avoid any argument, or to buy it from the TVM at the actual origin instead (TVMs aren't going away, they'll just switch to issuing barcoded tickets).

* I did a start-short yesterday, at MKC with a ticket from Bletchley going north, and the gateline, to my surprise, actually let me through anyway! However it was purchased a few hours earlier.

 

[AdamWW]

I've wondered about this.

I can see that it's not helpful in preventing pay-when-challenged if a passenger can just say "Ah but I actually got on after I bought the ticket".

On the other hand as the rules currently stand, one has the perfect right to start short on many tickets - there's no explicit rule to say that an e-ticket must be purchased before the train departs from the origin station.

But it's not hard to imagine a TOC or staff member making up such a rule.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I can see that it's not helpful in preventing pay-when-challenged if a passenger can just say "Ah but I actually got on after I bought the ticket".

Can they just say that? As I understand it, "pay-when-challenged" with an e-ticket purchased on board involves the following sequence.

1) Board train
2) Wait until tickets are being checked on board
3) Use app to purchase e-ticket from the previous stop
4) Present e-ticket to inspector

It's spotted if the inspector sees the time of purchase is after the train departed from that previous stop. That remains the case, even if the fare evader purchases a ticket from a station prior to that previous stop.

 

[talldave]

- with an e-ticket, however, I am on a train, with a ticket purchased timed at say 1450 - after the departure time at the origin station of 1430 but before the departure time at my boarding station.

How will this be dealt with?

Surely it's for the TOC to prove that you boarded the train before purchasing, not for you to prove that you didn't? And of course you haven't boarded before purchase so they can't.

 

[setdown]

Surely, evidence to the contrary is needed to be accused of foul play? Like, CCTV evidence of boarding at the station on your ticket, before your ticket was purchased.

 

[AdamWW]

Can they just say that? As I understand it, "pay-when-challenged" with an e-ticket purchased on board involves the following sequence.

1) Board train
2) Wait until tickets are being checked on board
3) Use app to purchase e-ticket from the previous stop
4) Present e-ticket to inspector

It's spotted if the inspector sees the time of purchase is after the train departed from that previous stop. That remains the case, even if the fare evader purchases a ticket from a station prior to that previous stop.

I agree that anyone actually indulging in pay-when-challenged is indeed likely to buy their ticket shortly before inspection.

But I believe that at least with some operators tickets are flagged if purchased after departure from the origin station even if it was several stops ago, and I'm pretty sure we've seen people get in trouble for purchasing minutes after the train departed even though the inspection was much later. And of course boarding without a valid ticket is potentially an offence.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Surely, evidence to the contrary is needed to be accused of foul play?

The train company may say the lack of a scan at the station where the passenger claims they are starting-short is evidence they didn't board there.

But I believe that at least with some operators tickets are flagged if purchased after departure from the origin station even if it was several stops ago, and I'm pretty sure we've seen people get in trouble for purchasing minutes after the train departed even though the inspection was much later.

I don't doubt that's the case. But it would be incorrect for the TOC to say they need to flag in that way to prevent "starting-short" being used to enable "pay-when-challenged" with an e-ticket.

The danger is they instruct their inspectors that such a flag indicates an offence has been committed. Flagging in that way will catch those who only pay when challenged, but it will also catch those who are genuinely starting-short on a ticket they purchased prior to boarding. I'm sure that's the OP's concern.

 

[AdamWW]

The danger is they instruct their inspectors that such a flag indicates an offence has been committed. Flagging in that way will catch those who only pay when challenged, but it will also catch those who are genuinely starting-short on a ticket they purchased prior to boarding. I'm sure that's the OP's concern.

Yes.

Mine too.

And even if staff aren't actually instructed that such a flag automatically indicates an offence, there will likely be some who take it upon themselves to form such a conclusion anyway.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I've done this on countless occasions (and for that matter had also seemingly countless delay repay payments received relating to delays experienced while using such tickets): for one journey I make semi-regularly, it is cheaper to buy a ticket from another station further down the line in the opposite direction from my destination.

I've never had it questioned at all, and there is no reason why it should be. I'm unambigiously using the ticket within the terms and conditions associated with it. Starting or finishing short is permitted. The e-ticket opens the gates at my departure station (which is where I start and finish short); the station at the other end of the journey has no barriers of any kind.

I also frequently use e-tickets when using split-ticketing, which means on those occasions that some of the tickets do not get scanned on any barriers. No reasonable grounds for suspicion in such cases, either.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I've never had it questioned at all, and there is no reason why it should be. I'm unambigiously using the ticket within the terms and conditions associated with it. Starting or finishing short is permitted.

Have you ever purchased the e-ticket after the train you are using has departed from the origin station shown on the ticket?

 

[W-on-Sea]

Have you ever purchased the e-ticket after the train you are using has departed from the origin station shown on the ticket?

Almost certainly (although, to be clear, if I were travelling the full journey named on the ticket, it would be necessary to change trains at the station at which I do board, as there are no through trains between the two stations named on the ticket), so it would be rather less obvious that I had done so than if I were on a through train.)

 

[HurdyGurdy]

if I were travelling the full journey named on the ticket, it would be necessary to change trains at the station at which I do board

Thanks. As the train you're actually travelling on (from the station where you start short) doesn't depart the origin station at all, it may be it doesn't fulfil the criteria for the ticket to be flagged in the way @AdamWW describes.