Using an SPT for emergencies

[ian_99]

Hi all!

I haven't found an answer to this question immediately, would it be common sense to use a signal post telephone (SPT) in case of an emergency? Say a car got stuck on a level crossing, or an unauthorized person is walking on the tracks. I assume this telephone gets you in direct contact with the signaller and thus make it more efficient at stopping all traffic on the line.

As a (trainee for 2 more weeks) train driver myself this is what I would obviously do in my country as I know the local safety procedures by heart.
I visit the UK regularly so my gut feeling would be to do the same thing. Or is it better to just call the local emergency number?

Apologies if this question is too specific!

 

[Llanigraham]

In the UK the GSM-R (in-cab) radio system will connnect you just as quickly to the signaller, plus there aren't that many SPT's.

 

[signed]

I don't know about the UK, but in France this would definitely be the recommanded approach.

I wouldn't expect the emergency line to be able to secure the railway in a sensible amount of time

 

[12LDA28C]

Hi all!

I haven't found an answer to this question immediately, would it be common sense to use a signal post telephone (SPT) in case of an emergency? Say a car got stuck on a level crossing, or an unauthorized person is walking on the tracks. I assume this telephone gets you in direct contact with the signaller and thus make it more efficient at stopping all traffic on the line.

As a (trainee for 2 more weeks) train driver myself this is what I would obviously do in my country as I know the local safety procedures by heart.
I visit the UK regularly so my gut feeling would be to do the same thing. Or is it better to just call the local emergency number?

Apologies if this question is too specific!

Welcome to the forum, your first post I see.

You don't state where you would be when witnessing this event - if you were passing by on foot or in your car then using an SPT (if there was one in the immediate vicinity) would certainly connect you immediately to the controlling signaller and you could obtain a line block although of course it would be unusual for a member of the public to use an SPT. Not all railway locations in the UK provide a local emergency number. A UK train driver would use the GSM-R as the quickest means of contacting the signaller.

 

[Gloster]

Aren’t the doors on most Signal Post Telephone mountings locked nowadays? I admit to being well out of it, but it used to be a problem in some areas of little scr*tes either playing about by ringing the box, leaving the ‘phone dangling or tearing the handset out: I suspect that it is worse nowadays.

 

[12LDA28C]

In the UK the GSM-R (in-cab) radio system will connnect you just as quickly to the signaller, plus there aren't that many SPT's.

It's not at all clear if the OP refers to action a train driver in the UK would take, or a passer-by would take if they witnessed such an event.

 

[Llanigraham]

It's not at all clear if the OP refers to action a train driver in the UK would take, or a passer-by would take if they witnessed such an event.

Since he satated he was a trainee driver in Belgium I was presuming he meant whilst he was driving, therefore I answered in that relevance.

If this was concerning a passer-by I would doubt many of them would know what a SPT was or where to find one, so their best and only option is to call 999 and report it to them, as they have access to the nearest line controllers, even in an Absolute Block area, and they can issue an "All Stop" for the relevant area via GSM-R.

 

[ian_99]

In the UK the GSM-R (in-cab) radio system will connnect you just as quickly to the signaller, plus there aren't that many SPT's.

I've seen quite a few while wandering around at stations while waiting for a train. It got me thinking when I saw someone get the wheel of a stroller stuck on the rail of a pedestrian level crossing. Luckily it only took 10s and no train was coming. There was an SPT nearby.
Sadly I don't have a mobile GSM-R in my possession!

Welcome to the forum, your first post I see.

You don't state where you would be when witnessing this event - if you were passing by on foot or in your car then using an SPT (if there was one in the immediate vicinity) would certainly connect you immediately to the controlling signaller and you could obtain a line block although of course it would be unusual for a member of the public to use an SPT. Not all railway locations in the UK provide a local emergency number. A UK train driver would use the GSM-R as the quickest means of contacting the signaller.

Thanks! Of course it depends on the situation, like the one I just described above it would make sense to use the SPT I assume. I also am used to GSM-R, but I'm not carrying one with me if there's no train driver to signal an alarm in this very unlikely event!
And I think the majority of the public don't know how to properly signal an alarm on the railway (determining location, phonetic/nato spelling...). That of course does not give me any more authority.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Most level crossings across public roads in the UK have dedicated telephones to the supervising signaller, largely but not exclusively for the purposes of advising about exceptional vehicles or herding animals, etc. These are generally far more accessible than (trespassing) walking along the line to a nearby signal.

I do appreciate that a distressed member of the public might be more focused on their escaped dog, child’s scooter stuck or whatever; so ‘helping out’ by telephoning the signaller yourself can be useful. (This presumes that you are not in a train cab with immediate access to a radio.)

 

[Gloster]

I was also thinking of cases remote from level crossings where things get on the line. One case I remember was when somebody who was speeding on the M5 had a blowout and went off onto the West of England Main Line: not actually on the line, but nosed into the ballast in the cess. Luckily a train on the opposite line saw it and stopped at the next box and another car driver used the emergency ‘phone, although the message didn’t get to the boxes until we had already stopped the job.

 

[stuving]

Most level crossings across public roads in the UK have dedicated telephones to the supervising signaller, largely but not exclusively for the purposes of advising about exceptional vehicles or herding animals, etc. These are generally far more accessible than (trespassing) walking along the line to a nearby signal.

In the past, yes. However, based on the crossing at the end my local station, newly rebuilt under the Feltham Resignalling project, what you will get from now on is:

The level crossing has small signs with an emergency phone number.
This crossing is also an access point, with a sign that gives phone numbers for the signaller (the external one is the same one as on the other sign) and ECR.

By the signals protecting the crossing, on the platform, there are SPTs, which could be locked but aren't. They connect straight to the signaller, so have no "dialling" buttons, and there are labels giving the NATO alphabet and about going to the signaller. They have no text label on the outside, just the railway symbol.

On one platform there is an emergency telephone (labelled as such), which can't be locked. This is in internal railway phone with similar labels explaining it (but no hint of who or what it's provided for). The only numbers given are 999 and the ECR (and its own internal number), so it's hard to see how it could be used other than by railway staff, except to call the ECR or 999.

One point about Basingstoke ROC is that the emergency number goes to the signaller, but the crossings are operated (by CCTV) from a separate dedicated controller's position. I wonder how well that works, and whether in an ROC there is an operator to filter calls to signallers.

 

[Llanigraham]

I've seen quite a few while wandering around at stations while waiting for a train. It got me thinking when I saw someone get the wheel of a stroller stuck on the rail of a pedestrian level crossing. Luckily it only took 10s and no train was coming. There was an SPT nearby.
Sadly I don't have a mobile GSM-R in my possession!

At a station I very much doubt those were SIGNAL POST TELEPHONES, which is what your question was about. What you see on a platform are something totally different and generally have no relevance to this discussion. In this situation you would either notify a member of the station staff or dial 999 on your phone.

Thanks! Of course it depends on the situation, like the one I just described above it would make sense to use the SPT I assume. I also am used to GSM-R, but I'm not carrying one with me if there's no train driver to signal an alarm in this very unlikely event!
And I think the majority of the public don't know how to properly signal an alarm on the railway (determining location, phonetic/nato spelling...). That of course does not give me any more authority.

Most people in the UK know that in an emergency they dial 999.

 

[ian_99]

At a station I very much doubt those were SIGNAL POST TELEPHONES, which is what your question was about. What you see on a platform are something totally different and generally have no relevance to this discussion. In this situation you would either notify a member of the station staff or dial 999 on your phone.

What I saw was definitely an SPT as it was a grey box with a square of black and white diagonal lines. Of course it also was on a signal post.
About dialing 999, that's the most straightforward but you got at least one person extra. For communicating emergencies it's always best to avoid people down the line to avoid miscommunication.

Most people in the UK know that in an emergency they dial 999.

I hope so. We had a handful of trucks and cars getting stuck on level crossings this year, of which nobody realised it's an emergency. So they don't end up calling anyone until the next train collides with it. Happened recently with a TGV

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2024 ==

One point about Basingstoke ROC is that the emergency number goes to the signaller, but the crossings are operated (by CCTV) from a separate dedicated controller's position. I wonder how well that works, and whether in an ROC there is an operator to filter calls to signallers.

That's interesting, level crossing are operated manually? And monitored by a signaller through CCTV?
Or is it only the bigger/busier ones?
I'm used to all of them operating automatically.

 

[Gloster]

Most people in the UK know that in an emergency they dial 999.

Unfortunately, a lot of young think it is 911, because that is what they have seen in (American) TV programmes. I am not sure if the telephone system is now set up to divert those dialling 911 to the 999 service.

 

[sor]

Unfortunately, a lot of young think it is 911, because that is what they have seen in (American) TV programmes. I am not sure if the telephone system is now set up to divert those dialling 911 to the 999 service.

not that I'm about to try it and of course no one should do so, but I believe the commonly known numbers all route to the same place (999, 911, 112), on the basis that a tourist in distress may forget the "correct" number. At least for a mobile phone anyway.

 

[muz379]

One point about Basingstoke ROC is that the emergency number goes to the signaller, but the crossings are operated (by CCTV) from a separate dedicated controller's position. I wonder how well that works, and whether in an ROC there is an operator to filter calls to signallers.

Without knowing the arrangements specifically , if there is a crossing panel/workstation generally the crossing keepers working those panels are responsible for checking the crossing is clear and confirming that by pressing a button .The signaller sets the route accross the crossing and so if there is an emergency is the one that can stop trains . If the crossing panel/workstation is also in the ROC then they will probably be in the same room so communication can be achieved easily .

That's interesting, level crossing are operated manually? And monitored by a signaller through CCTV?
Or is it only the bigger/busier ones?
I'm used to all of them operating automatically.

We have various different types of crossings in the UK . Some automatic , some manual , some with road gates and some without .

Some manually operated ones are controlled by signallers , some by dedicated crossing keepers .

 

[ian_99]

We have various different types of crossings in the UK . Some automatic , some manual , some with road gates and some without .

Some manually operated ones are controlled by signallers , some by dedicated crossing keepers .

Didn't know there were still some left, might go search for a crossing managed by a keeper. It seems very interesting because those are all long gone here (except for some heritage lines during bigger events).
That's of course the best way to keep a crossing safe at all times.

 

[Gloster]

Many crossings are automatic: operated by the train and only supervised to the extent that the responsible signal box will have indicators to show that all is functioning correctly. These can either be half-barriers, with lifting barriers only obstructing the access on to the crossing for car drivers but leaving the exit for each carriageway free, or full barriers that have obstacle detection. Many minor crossings have gates (usually farm gate type) that are operated by the users, with or without a telephone to contact the signalman. Others are closed under the direct control of a signal box, either visually or via CCTV: these will have full barriers or gates. Gates are only used with some older style boxes that are directly adjacent to the crossing. At some locations the ’box’ is staffed by a crossing-keeper and the building/equipment they use has no control over trains, except being able to stop a train passing over a crossing that isn’t shut to road traffic.

Others will no doubt hurl brickbats at me for inaccuracies in the above, but it is many years since I was a signalman and I haven’t kept up with the massive variety of new types.

Correctly a crossing-keeper is a member of staff who is only concerned with closing the barriers to let a train pass and opening them again afterwards: they have no signalling function. In many places the signalman opens and closes the gates, but they are called a signalman if they also (and primarily) oversee the signalling of trains.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Didn't know there were still some left, might go search for a crossing managed by a keeper. It seems very interesting because those are all long gone here (except for some heritage lines during bigger events).
That's of course the best way to keep a crossing safe at all times.

Am I right in thinking that an emergency hand signal to stop a train is the same in Belgium the same as in the UK - both arms held high ....? - preferably of course given from a location of safety.......(and in the absence of a convenient telephone)

And in the dark "any light waved violently denotes danger"

 

[ian_99]

Am I right in thinking that an emergency hand signal to stop a train is the same in Belgium the same as in the UK - both arms held high ....? - preferably of course given from a location of safety.......(and in the absence of a convenient telephone)

And in the dark "any light waved violently denotes danger"

The latter is definitely the same. To quote our rulebook (loosly translated): "In the absence of the provided means or in unforseen situations does the quick waving of any object or light coming from a lantern (except for yellow or green) have the same meaning as a red flag"

As for the hand signals (or shunting hand-signals as we call them) making fast wide, uninterrupted, circles with your arm means to stop immediately because of an emergency. Wide, interrupted, circles just means a normal stop.
Putting both your arms up has no meaning to us, unless you bring them together above your head (like this \/ → | |) then it's a command to activate the brakes, during the brake tests.

 

[Kite159]

If you were at a station and saw an emergency happening which required a line block (say someone falling off the platform onto the track) or emergency switch off [in areas of conductor rail] then if given the option between the Emergency telephone or a signal post telephone [SPT], then I got told on my PTS training to use the SPT as it contacts directly to the signaller for the emergency call. Saves trying to get the signallers number using the emergency phone. In addition, I believe the signaller is made aware of the location when you use a SPT.

If it's an unmanned level crossing, then normally there is a level crossing phone located on both sides of the tracks, mainly for use for long & slow vehicles or if a farmer wants to take some cows across the line.

(assuming it isn't an SPT with the Limited Clearance sticker on, meaning it wasn't in a position of safety)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The latter is definitely the same. To quote our rulebook (loosly translated): "In the absence of the provided means or in unforseen situations does the quick waving of any object or light coming from a lantern (except for yellow or green) have the same meaning as a red flag"

As for the hand signals (or shunting hand-signals as we call them) making fast wide, uninterrupted, circles with your arm means to stop immediately because of an emergency. Wide, interrupted, circles just means a normal stop.
Putting both your arms up has no meaning to us, unless you bring them together above your head (like this \/ → | |) then it's a command to activate the brakes, during the brake tests.

Thank you - interesting - we could open this up to a comparison on "handsignals" - but a bit off topic. (though I am tempted to learn more)

Preferably a red light in darkness - (over here) - the "bardic" handlamp used in my time - had red/white/green shades - some had orange for specific purposes. Battery powered of course .....when I left direct operational work , I was kindly allowed to retain mine. It is here in my study...........well used of course , with various dents and chips on it.....

 

[ian_99]

If it's an unmanned level crossing, then normally there is a level crossing phone located on both sides of the tracks, mainly for use for long & slow vehicles or if a farmer wants to take some cows across the line.

(assuming it isn't an SPT with the Limited Clearance sticker on, meaning it wasn't in a position of safety)

I've seen those before, usually while on a walk and the path/farm road crosses the railway. It's a very convenient system as opposed to just removing the crossing all together.

Thank you - interesting - we could open this up to a comparison on "handsignals" - but a bit off topic. (though I am tempted to learn more)

Preferably a red light in darkness - (over here) - the "bardic" handlamp used in my time - had red/white/green shades - some had orange for specific purposes. Battery powered of course .....when I left direct operational work , I was kindly allowed to retain mine. It is here in my study...........well used of course , with various dents and chips on it.....

It's the well used ones that are best at telling a story.
And maybe I'll make a thread about the difference between Belgian and UK railways from a more operational perspective. It's intruiging how some things are very similar.

 

[E27007]

In the UK the GSM-R (in-cab) radio system will connnect you just as quickly to the signaller, plus there aren't that many SPT's.

Plenty of SPTs, many do not work due to lack of use/maintenance. GSMR has taken over

 

[30907]

Didn't know there were still some left, might go search for a crossing managed by a keeper. It seems very interesting because those are all long gone here (except for some heritage lines during bigger events).

A recent thread on the topic (started at a guess by a German-speaking signaller!):
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/old-level-crossings-manually-operated-gates.272722/ated-gates.272722/

 

[LAX54]

Unfortunately, a lot of young think it is 911, because that is what they have seen in (American) TV programmes. I am not sure if the telephone system is now set up to divert those dialling 911 to the 999 service.

There was a public survey/poll a few years ago amongst school age children on what nunber to dial in an Emergency, over 45% replied with 911 !

I know 112 works in the UK, but don't think 911 does (yet!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2024 ==

In the UK the GSM-R (in-cab) radio system will connnect you just as quickly to the signaller, plus there aren't that many SPT's.

If its a member of the public, then the emergency phone at the crossing if an AHB, CCTV crossings will have the BT number for the controlling signaller. If its a Train Driver on a train then a GSMR REC call will instantly bring everyhting to a stop in the area (and give the Signaller a heart stopping moment when the GSMR REC call comes in !)

 

[JamesT]

There was a public survey/poll a few years ago amongst school age children on what nunber to dial in an Emergency, over 45% replied with 911 !

I know 112 works in the UK, but don't think 911 does (yet!)

911 will be rerouted to 999 on mobiles in the UK and has been for many years. I’m not sure about landlines or other types.

 

[LAX54]

911 will be rerouted to 999 on mobiles in the UK and has been for many years. I’m not sure about landlines or other types.

Thankyou, I didnt know that

 

[etr221]

911 will be rerouted to 999 on mobiles in the UK and has been for many years. I’m not sure about landlines or other types.

I think - maybe someone with more knowledge can comment - that mobiles are set to recognise the various emergency numbers (999, 911, 112, probably others) if dialled, and make an emergency call, rather than a 'conventional' dialled one, straight to the emergency control: which is why at times your mobile will say 'emergency calls only' - it doesn't worry about whether you (it) are on the correct network or have any credit...

 

[RailwayRookie]

At a station I very much doubt those were SIGNAL POST TELEPHONES, which is what your question was about. What you see on a platform are something totally different and generally have no relevance to this discussion. In this situation you would either notify a member of the station staff or dial 999 on your phone.

To add to this, at my location there are signals with associated SPTs on both platforms by the exit gates. There is an assistance box somewhere midway along one platform but the SPTs are visible and accessible.