Using a 16-17 railcard

[AlbertBeale]

So they cannot charge me any fees then? Like a settlement fee or money for the fares I brought wrong tickets on? They can’t do anything?

They can't launch a prosecution (for the offence they'd normally charge you with here) more than 6 months afterwards. However, your initial post suggests they think you've avoided your fare at other times too [if you did do so, having been caught once, that's pretty silly!], and that they're thinking of charging you with a more serious offence - fraud. That doesn't have a six-month cut-off. It's not common to use fraud charges in ticketing cases, but they do have that option if they've missed the boat with lesser charges, and really want to come after you.

Or if they have evidence from your ticket-buying records that you've done the same thing since the time you were stopped, then they can charge you with the more normal offence they use, but relating to a date or dates within the last 6 months. They can charge you in relation to any occasion when they think you committed a crime; it needn't relate to an incident where you were stopped at the time.

Even if they don't do that, they could in theory still go for a civil claim against you (as opposed to a criminal case) for the money you owe. And if you're under 18 they can try to involve your parents in paying for the fares you avoided. And if you've done that frequently, then it could add up to quite an amount...

And lastly, remember that if you're on their radar now, then even if they don't try to take you to court (or get you to make a settlement payment in lieu of that) they'll be watching out for you now and would be likely to throw the book at you if you do it again.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no possibility of a fraud prosecution here. Train companies do not use the Fraud Act to prosecute privately; they report people to the police when that is the case, because fraud is a difficult charge to prove as it requires evidence beyond reasonable doubt of intent.

All that happened is the OP bought the wrong - and in fact more restrictive - railcard, for the same price as the 16-17 Saver they should have bought.

There is no fraud here, nor any reasonable suspicion of it, nor any evidence to support it. Nothing is going to happen. The train company were lazy and they are at a dead end now.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There is no possibility of a fraud prosecution here. Train companies do not use the Fraud Act to prosecute privately; they report people to the police when that is the case, because fraud is a difficult charge to prove as it requires evidence beyond reasonable doubt of intent.

All that happened is the OP bought the wrong - and in fact more restrictive - railcard, for the same price as the 16-17 Saver they should have bought.

There is no fraud here, nor any reasonable suspicion of it, nor any evidence to support it. Nothing is going to happen. The train company were lazy and they are at a dead end now.

That might be true (that it was a one-off mistake) - but if so, why did the train company tell the enquirer that they've investigated other journeys/tickets and are suspicious? Have we been told the full story? Or were there lots of possible offences, even though we've been told just about the one where the person was stopped (and a couple of others)? There's already an implict admission that the time they were stopped wasn't the first time they'd done it.

 

[AlterEgo]

That might be true (that it was a one-off mistake) - but if so, why did the train company tell the enquirer that they've investigated other journeys/tickets and are suspicious? Have we been told the full story? Or were there lots of possible offences, even though we've been told just about the one where the person was stopped (and a couple of others)? There's already an implict admission that the time they were stopped wasn't the first time they'd done it.

It doesn't matter if it's the first time they made the error, it isn't a fraud. Fraud requires that you have to deliberately cause a loss for another or make a gain for yourself by a dishonest representation - and the dishonest representation has to have been done with the intent of causing such.

Train companies audit ticket purchasing accounts and use the F word all the time to scare people. They aren't going to waste the police's time by reporting this, and even if they did the police would laugh at such a stupid case. It's a literal child who bought the wrong railcard, not a fraudster.

Here is an example of the company handling a fraud case - they only bothered for £7500 worth of short fares, and it involved covert intelligence, and a "sting", and it still didn't get to court. https://www.londonnorthwesternrailw.../ticketless-travel-£7500-fraud-case-uncovered

 

[user2234]

It doesn't matter if it's the first time they made the error, it isn't a fraud. Fraud requires that you have to deliberately cause a loss for another or make a gain for yourself by a dishonest representation - and the dishonest representation has to have been done with the intent of causing such.

Train companies audit ticket purchasing accounts and use the F word all the time to scare people. They aren't going to waste the police's time by reporting this, and even if they did the police would laugh at such a stupid case. It's a literal child who bought the wrong railcard, not a fraudster.

Here is an example of the company handling a fraud case - they only bothered for £7500 worth of short fares, and it involved covert intelligence, and a "sting", and it still didn't get to court. https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/about-us/blog/ticketless-travel-£7500-fraud-case-uncovered

I understand what you are saying and yes I am under 18. At the time of the railcard incident I was 16. In the past I have brought child tickets at 16 too. After the incident I also brought a few child tickets due to having limited money in my account though, but they were 1 stop journeys and not often

 

[AlterEgo]

I understand what you are saying and yes I am under 18. At the time of the railcard incident I was 16. In the past I have brought child tickets at 16 too. After the incident I also brought a few child tickets due to having limited money in my account though, but they were 1 stop journeys and not often

When was the most recent example of you doing this? You said once, earlier, now it is a few. How many is it?

 

[user2234]

When was the most recent example of you doing this?

Like 2 months ago. After I brought the wrong ticket on the railcard I was not told anything would happen. I was just I don’t need to buy a new ticket and that it’s fine. But yeah about 2 months ago I brought a child ticket. Since the fraud email I got really worried and just always buy the right ticket and showed them I had purchased the correct railcard as before I had accidentally brought a national one

 

[AlterEgo]

Like 2 months ago. After I brought the wrong ticket on the railcard I was not told anything would happen. I was just I don’t need to buy a new ticket and that it’s fine. But yeah about 2 months ago I brought a child ticket. Since the fraud email I got really worried and just always buy the right ticket and showed them I had purchased the correct railcard as before I had accidentally brought a national one

Then I'd lie low if I were you and stop buying child tickets. All you have to do to continue getting a half fare is buy a 16-17 Saver anyway.

I wouldn't contact the company at all. Let them contact you, and if they do, deal with it as that correspondence comes in.

 

[user2234]

Then I'd lie low if I were you and stop buying child tickets. All you have to do to continue getting a half fare is buy a 16-17 Saver anyway.

I wouldn't contact the company at all. Let them contact you, and if they do, deal with it as that correspondence comes in.

Yeah I brought the right railcard and sent them proof I had brought one now like 4 weeks ago

 

[user2234]

Hello,
It has now been over 4 weeks since I was asked by WM fraud team to provide my date of birth as a form of ID before they continued with any investigation.

This was due to an incident in October where I had a railcard ticket and couldn’t provide a railcard

I provided it to them, and I am under 18

Since providing it to them I have not heard or had an email back in a month

What do you all think?

 

[AlterEgo]

I think you should leave it alone. There is a chance the matter will go away due to your age or otherwise time out for prosecution.

 

[user2234]

Thank you for all your help
I received an email the other day
It states

Good morning …..



Thank you for your response.



I see this was an error, upon you being classed as an adult and still purchasing child tickets. Is classed as fraud on the railway.



However, due to the misunderstanding of the railcards and you are entitled to the 16-17 Saver, we will close your case down today.


My case has been closed , many thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you for all your help
I received an email the other day
It states

Good morning …..



Thank you for your response.



I see this was an error, upon you being classed as an adult and still purchasing child tickets. Is classed as fraud on the railway.



However, due to the misunderstanding of the railcards and you are entitled to the 16-17 Saver, we will close your case down today.


My case has been closed , many thanks

Thanks for letting us know - that’s a good result.

As you have had to find out the hard way, even when the process ends up with no action, being investigated by the railway isn’t fun. So it’s probably worth the effort of being very careful on future journeys to make sure you have got your ticket exactly right so that you never have this problem again.