Uses for ex-Grand Central Mk4s?

[Journeyman]

Would it be enough to allow all North Wales Coast "IC" services to be Mk4s? That would have considerable advantages.

No, it wouldn't - it would cost a fortune.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Again, there is a cost consideration for the ROSCO. They may try to tout the coaches but in the likely event of there being no takers, the coaches have no value to them other than scrap and they will have to cut their losses and get the money back from leasing their other stock.

Oh of course. They won't keep them in warm storage forever - but in their current state and with the obvious technical "know how" that allows you to stick a 67 on (DB must be trying to find work for them even now, no?), they are an ideal solution. Loco hauled is on the up and up.

Unless, of course, you could find a home for them on the East Mids Nottingham - Liverpool, which of course is six diagrams strong and, erm, happens to need rolling stock. Locos maintained down the road at Toton...

 

[craigybagel]

TfW have already decided how many sets they want. Sorry to repeat this yet again, but Mk4s have been going for scrap - if they wanted more sets they could have had them already.

To be fair (and I do think that scrap is still the most likely outcome), TfW have shown already that they're happy to change their plans. We're in a different world to 3 years ago when the franchise bid was being drawn up.

As up the thread I felt that with some Holyhead additions, it would need probably two unit diagrams. That said, if Civity traction is operating across Wales, you would need them to do a couple of odd diagrams on the Coast (where the key driver is the North Wales - Manchester) to keep crew knowledge up and make sure depots at Holyhead and Llandudno keep their hand in.

FWIW, the Blaneau Ffestiniog branch would take care of that - plus both Holyhead and Junction have work on the Crewe - Chester shuttle which will also be Civity operated.

 

[JonathanH]

Loco hauled is on the up and up.

If it is, it is from a very low base and really only exists at all because of some misplaced subsidies (TfW), accidents of franchise bids (TPE) or convenience (Chiltern).

Unless, of course, you could find a home for them on the East Mids Nottingham - Liverpool, which of course is six diagrams strong and, erm, happens to need rolling stock. Locos maintained down the road at Toton...

Absolutely not. The Hope Valley is the last place anyone should be wanting to put rolling stock that can't take advantage of sprinter speed differentials and some people on this forum think that putting 67+Mk4 through the Castlefield corridor would be an operational nightmare.

 

[DB]

with the obvious technical "know how" that allows you to stick a 67 on

It requires the DVTs to be fitted with AAR, and the set to the through wired - these sets are not fitted with this, and doing so would be absolutely no different to doing so with sets coming straight from LNER.

Loco hauled is on the up and up.

What utter nonsense. The only new loco-hauled carriages ordered for years are the Caledonian sleeper - where loco hauled was the only realistic option because of the specific requirements - and TPE who did it because they could be delivered quickly (which they weren't in the end). It's quite noticeable that with TPE having a lower fleet requirement it's the loco-hauled sets which they are mostly not using. There are no likely prospects of any future orders, and it seems fairly likely that the Chiltern sets will go early in the next franchise.

Over the past year or so, the loco hauled fleets from Greater Anglia, and a lot of the Mk4 fleet, have been withdrawn, as have the various 'temporary' loco-hauled sets in Cumbria, Fife and East Anglia. The Wales Mk4 sets are basically just a replacement for the Mk3s, with an additional set as a spare. And the only reason for this really is the first-class dining service, which is impractical to provide any other way.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

To be fair (and I do think that scrap is still the most likely outcome), TfW have shown already that they're happy to change their plans. We're in a different world to 3 years ago when the franchise bid was being drawn up.


FWIW, the Blaneau Ffestiniog branch would take care of that - plus both Holyhead and Junction have work on the Crewe - Chester shuttle which will also be Civity operated.

Pretty sure Crewe - Chester and Ffestiniog are going to be D Stock converts?

 

[randyrippley]

Convert some more 73/9s and wire them for push pull with the mk4 sets.
Ideal for Waterloo-Exeter and Bristol-Portsmouth-Brighton.
Free up the 159 fleet for use in the north

 

[mmh]

TfW will have 3 x 4 car rakes. GC would be 5 x 6 car rakes. That's 38 vehicles in total, across 8 rakes. Can you make 6 x 5 car and 2 x 4 car rakes, all powered by 67s, and therefore use them on a combination of North Wales - South Wales (2 x 4 car, with full restaurant); and then the rest working on the Llandudno / Holyhead - Manchester Airport circuit?

I reckon there's 6 diagrams solely on Llandudno - Manchester Airport, so add in some Holyhead bits, and then you've potentially only got one or two unit diagrams overall on the entire North Wales - Manchester route which can be made to work only at off-peak times, meaning you'll have wonderful 5-car rakes turning up on the Castlefield corridor at peak, spreading passengers beautifully. De-clutter the doorways and you're laughing (e.g. take out a couple of seats and give that circulating space).

The problem with converting the Manchester route to loco hauled is platform lengths at Shotton and most stations between Chester and Manchester which limits it to a maximum of a 4 car DMU, so locos are only realistically ever going to be used on peak time extras rather than the whole service. Manchester Airport and/or changing ends on Piccadilly terminators could also possibly be a problem.

 

[craigybagel]

Pretty sure Crewe - Chester and Ffestiniog are going to be D Stock converts?

Only temporarily (if at all, especially in the case of Blaneau). The plan was always for Civitys to be the permanent stock for these routes, with the 230s joining the rest of the fleet on Bidston to double the service frequency there

The problem with converting the Manchester route to loco hauled is platform lengths at Shotton and most stations between Chester and Manchester which limits it to a maximum of a 4 car DMU, so locos are only realistically ever going to be used on peak time extras rather than the whole service. Manchester Airport and/or changing ends on Piccadilly terminators could also possibly be a problem.

There are plenty of other stations on the TfW network that the MKIVs are expected to call at that similarly only hold 4 cars. There are plans in place for dealing with it. Helsby and Shotton are the only stations (other then request stops) with issues on the North Wales - Manchester run. Piccadilly terminators are indeed an issue though, which is why the old MKIII diagram had those services turn back at Longsight excursion platform rather then in Mayfield loop like the other services do.

 

[gaillark]

Can I suggest Marston Vale route (Bedford to Bletchley). The service on this route has been dreadful for years more so since the introduction of class 230's breaking down. And before that 150/153's. Bus substitution on a very regular basis or no service at all (recently for months). 3 x 2 car sets is all that is needed plus a DVT and a 67. The route did have loco haulage a good number of years ago when no suitable stock could be found! What's their not to like apart from the bucket loads of cash needed to run the service compared to fare box income!

 

[yoyothehobo]

I could do with an extension on my house. I reckon i have space for one in my back garden. If i get a buffet i can have a kitchen as well.

Or just wait for some brushed aluminium surfaces once they have been to Booths for an "upgrade"

 

[DB]

Or just wait for some brushed aluminium surfaces once they have been to Booths for an "upgrade"

They are steel!

 

[crablab]

I could do with an extension on my house. I reckon i have space for one in my back garden. If i get a buffet i can have a kitchen as well.

Not a bad shout...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Can I suggest Marston Vale route (Bedford to Bletchley). The service on this route has been dreadful for years more so since the introduction of class 230's breaking down. And before that 150/153's. Bus substitution on a very regular basis or no service at all (recently for months). 3 x 2 car sets is all that is needed plus a DVT and a 67. The route did have loco haulage a good number of years ago when no suitable stock could be found! What's their not to like apart from the bucket loads of cash needed to run the service compared to fare box income!

Sadly a bit much for that line.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Just a thought - couldn't Avanti West Coast run those services? They serve the West Coast Mainline after all.

 

[jonty14]

Who by? A few enthusiasts?

Yawn. Same old tired anti enthusiast reply

 

[Journeyman]

Yawn. Same old tired anti enthusiast reply

It's a fact. All sorts of crazy ideas here to desperately prevent a 30-year-old redundant fleet going for scrap. Only enthusiasts care about this. 99.9999999% of rail users are not enthusiasts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2020 ==

There speaks someone who's obviously never lived in Wales.

(Except I believe they do, which makes it a really bizarre take on what can or can't happen)

I don't and never have lived in Wales. Doesn't change anything, though. TfW have had plenty of opportunities to load up on Mark 4s, and chose not to.

 

[CBlue]

Yawn. Same old tired anti enthusiast reply

Oh, being rational is "anti-enthusiast" now?

 

[DB]

Oh, being rational is "anti-enthusiast" now?

I have to agree.

I like the Mk4s, and I think it's a pity that so many have already been scrapped (and more very likely will be). But I can see the reality of the situation, and it's pretty clear that there is very little TOC interest. It's also rather naive to think that any TOC will make this sort of decision on the basis that these particular sets have just been tarted up in another operator's livery.

 

[The Fox 4846]

I know this has already been mentioned but seriously why not Manchester-Birmingham on the XC route? I understand pre-Covid it wouldn’t have even been considered but now circumstances have changed. Their is shortage of voyager stock and will be another 1/2 years minimum before further diesel stock is transferred. This could then operate purely Manchester-Birmingham N St - (or International if paths permit). It could either operate as 1 train per hour or 2 and if more sets are needed could always utilise ex-LNER stock. If it was one per hour then the stock could be increased to 8 coaches and use the alternate paths ie: Bournemouth north and Bristol South meaning a 4hr round trip. The Reading service could then turn back at New St (arr: xx:48 dep: xx:04). The 8 voyagers could then be used to strengthen other sections of route, such as Birmingham - Doncaster such that Birmingham - Newcastle via Don and Birmingham - Leeds could operate. Failing this they could always be utilised between York - Edinburgh/Glasgow.

 

[37424]

I know this has already been mentioned but seriously why not Manchester-Birmingham on the XC route? I understand pre-Covid it wouldn’t have even been considered but now circumstances have changed. Their is shortage of voyager stock and will be another 1/2 years minimum before further diesel stock is transferred. This could then operate purely Manchester-Birmingham N St - (or International if paths permit). It could either operate as 1 train per hour or 2 and if more sets are needed could always utilise ex-LNER stock. If it was one per hour then the stock could be increased to 8 coaches and use the alternate paths ie: Bournemouth north and Bristol South meaning a 4hr round trip. The Reading service could then turn back at New St (arr: xx:48 dep: xx:04). The 8 voyagers could then be used to strengthen other sections of route, such as Birmingham - Doncaster such that Birmingham - Newcastle via Don and Birmingham - Leeds could operate. Failing this they could always be utilised between York - Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Well it could but its unlikely, as for York-Edinburgh I expect there is overall enough capacity on that section of route assuming the TPE service get reinstated at some point I wouldn't be using the XC Vomiter service to get to Edinburgh from Leeds for instance.

 

[james60059]

I know this has already been mentioned but seriously why not Manchester-Birmingham on the XC route?

To be fair, it's not a bad idea, I remember there was Class 90 and stock used between BHM and MAN a good few years back (2005-ish maybe?), albeit just one or 2 rakes whilst a couple of Voyagers were displaced for various reasons.

 

[43096]

TfW will have 3 x 4 car rakes. GC would be 5 x 6 car rakes.

Where do you get that number from for GC? There were four sets with five passenger vehicles and a DVT.

 

[cactustwirly]

I know this has already been mentioned but seriously why not Manchester-Birmingham on the XC route? I understand pre-Covid it wouldn’t have even been considered but now circumstances have changed. Their is shortage of voyager stock and will be another 1/2 years minimum before further diesel stock is transferred. This could then operate purely Manchester-Birmingham N St - (or International if paths permit). It could either operate as 1 train per hour or 2 and if more sets are needed could always utilise ex-LNER stock. If it was one per hour then the stock could be increased to 8 coaches and use the alternate paths ie: Bournemouth north and Bristol South meaning a 4hr round trip. The Reading service could then turn back at New St (arr: xx:48 dep: xx:04). The 8 voyagers could then be used to strengthen other sections of route, such as Birmingham - Doncaster such that Birmingham - Newcastle via Don and Birmingham - Leeds could operate. Failing this they could always be utilised between York - Edinburgh/Glasgow.

Not enough platform capacity at Birmingham New Street

 

[popeter45]

Where do you get that number from for GC? There were four sets with five passenger vehicles and a DVT.

i think its a mix up of if you count the DVT as a car
TfW are 4 car + DVT and GC are 5 car + DVT

 

[Pete_uk]

Business class executive trains, loco, three carriages, DVT.
Have board meetings on the go.
Sit in luxury seats.
First class dining.
Little pools with goldfish in to nibble at your feet.

 

[popeter45]

Business class executive trains, loco, three carriages, DVT.
Have board meetings on the go.
Sit in luxury seats.
First class dining.
Little pools with goldfish in to nibble at your feet.

so return of the pullman?

 

[Whistler40145]

Another charter set for LSL?

 

[Meerkat]

Covid secure bubble sets for taking football teams between Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and London!

 

[CBlue]

Baked bean tins?