Neither of those are under the wires all the way though, and a 67 wouldn't be adequate for the long, fast stretches of ECML.
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Uses for ex-Grand Central Mk4s?
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
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Neither of those are under the wires all the way though, and a 67 wouldn't be adequate for the long, fast stretches of ECML.
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No wires between Neville Hill and Colton Junction - and as already pointed out by another poster, nobody is going to introduce new services just to find a use for surplus stock: the service patterns are set and the chances of additional ones being created at the moment are about zero.
NLC1072
Member
Could send the MK4s over to Ireland if the Irish government would pay for them... could really do with some more stock over here!!! Obviously have to regauge them and all though...
If Ireland wanted any, they could no doubt have bought some of the many which were pulled apart in Rotherham and Hull fairly recently!
YorksLad12
Established Member
My thought also. Self-powered to Northallerton then dragged the rest of the way - but the units they've refurbished are hardly a great investment. Not worth swapping over as it stands.
We might be a bit short on platform space for that at Leeds; you'd need one of the through lines as 7 & 14 won't be long enough. Plus a path (and you'd be duplicating XC and TPE as far as Edinburgh).
NLC1072
Member
I know right?! Looks like we'll be sticking with our four services a day here lol!
What about on the Midland Main Line, meaning there are carriages up to PRM standards. That means our beloved HSTs can stay for longer, albeit with sealed-window slidey door carriages (aka Mk4s). The 90s could return to DB and do whatever freight duties required, I’m assuming intermodals...
That was talked about years ago, and clearly not viable as it wasn't progressed. There are significant problems with incompatible electrical systems.
Journeyman
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Some sort of plan was drawn up to fit equipment in HST power cars to allow operation with Mk 4s, but it seems pretty obvious the existing vehicles will just go as soon as the new stock arrives. Not much point in an interim solution now.
Sean Davidson
Member
Turn them into EMUs for Southeastern Ashford - Maidstone - London.
But I'd personally prefer open access to look at alternative WMids to L
Ah, yes I'd forgotten that bit to Coltonbisnt electrified....and via Doncaster would be silly.
Journeyman
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Really??? Come off it.
Sorry, lost connection as I was typing. Prefer WMids to London loco hauled alternative to EMU: maybe a sort of Chiltern operation but on the WCML. And in a post covid world of course!
Can't really see who it would attract, the market it would get just get on a Pendolino...
43096
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Doesn’t stop you from joining in on the speculation thread about the stock, does it?
CBlue
Member
I'm half surprised no-one's suggested that being 140mph capable with a 91 stuck to them, they'd be "perfect" for Southeastern high speed services alongside the 395's.
Or maybe they could be used as trailer cars in rakes of 442 sets?
Or maybe they could be used as trailer cars in rakes of 442 sets?
43096
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It was more than “some sort of plan”, there was a design done. It’s also a totally pointless exercise doing this now, as the HSTs should be gone in less than 12 months.
So....
Very unlikely to be any TOCs interested
Open Access won’t be expanding any time soon
Are they a straight swap for Mk3s in charter terms - ie would anyone be thinking they would take them at near scrap value and scrap a rake of Mk3s instead, getting a refurbishment out of it.
Very unlikely to be any TOCs interested
Open Access won’t be expanding any time soon
Are they a straight swap for Mk3s in charter terms - ie would anyone be thinking they would take them at near scrap value and scrap a rake of Mk3s instead, getting a refurbishment out of it.
The_Train
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I think this is the reality now. I'm the biggest supporter of keeping proper trains running as long as possible (purely for selfish reasons as spending a day watching units is a bit tedious
). But the reality is, covid is winning when it comes to the railways and as much as I'd love to see the mk4s on the Manchester to Birmingham corridor, its not feasible and the only option is scrap unfortunately.Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The upside over Mk3s is power doors and no windows to get your head knocked off. But aren't they lower route availability than Mk3s?
TBH I think Mk4s are pretty rubbish anyway - unlike Mk3s which seem to have been design-led they always give me the feeling of being built down to a price. The seats are nice, I'll give you, but they aren't the originals and could be taken out and put in something else if a TOC wanted them, e.g. perhaps to replace the collapsed Richmond seats in some of Northern's DMUs.
TBH I think Mk4s are pretty rubbish anyway - unlike Mk3s which seem to have been design-led they always give me the feeling of being built down to a price. The seats are nice, I'll give you, but they aren't the originals and could be taken out and put in something else if a TOC wanted them, e.g. perhaps to replace the collapsed Richmond seats in some of Northern's DMUs.
The_Train
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This is my possible lack of understanding, but aren't the mk4s more complex than mk3s in terms of maintenance? That could be off putting to any charter companies
Risk that the regulators take dimly to charter operators using slam doors whilst rakes of refurbished power door stock goes for scrap?
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
I’m not one of those people who try and keep clapped out old stock alive just for the sake of it but as they are in my opinion and likely other people’s opinions much superior to a 158/175 for long journeys, TFW should take them IMO to displace more 158/175 diagrams, as they’re already going to have a small number. More trains with buffet and first class would be good!
Lots of mk4s have already been scrapped - we are again back to the point that if any charter operators wanted mk4s, they had opportunity to buy them.
The regulators can't take 'dimly' to charters using slam door stock - it is allowed within the rules.
Mk3s are a lot more useful to charter operators as they are have much wider route clearance.
Yes, but only allowed until 31 March 2023 when the derogation to use the existing stock runs out.
As a kind of exemption/work around though isn’t it? Grandfather rights kind of thing.
Safety regulators do that to keep the cost of full compliance reasonable - so they won’t like it that if there is a low cost alternative that isn’t taken.
Converting Mark 4s to vacuum brakes probably isn't a low cost alternative for that part of the market. The margins on charter operations are unlikely to be large.
Given that they even allowed them to be used for the Skipton-Appleby services, they clearly don't have a problem.
You seem to also be missing the point about route clearance. Also, Mk4s don't have standard coupling arrangements, so the sort of mix and match sets of Mk1/2/3 often found in charters aren't possible, and there are no Mk4 brake vehicles apart from the DVTs, which would otherwise be dead space in many cases (i.e. if used with anything other than in push-pull with an AC electric). Mk3s are simply more suitable for charter operators, for all of these reasons.
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