Useless OLE

[SamanthaJ1989]

Hello

I do wonder why some lines have OHLE/OLE when they are deemed useless.

Take this approch to newcastle. The lower line is clearly a diesel line (no electrification whatsoever and they just before the station electrify a small portion of the other 2 tracks. However any electric loco/EMU won't get anywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEplJsmVbqo

Take a look at 0.47-1.20

Heres another example

Barking to Gospel Oak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEQyqh_gVPk

Take a look at 3.35 -4.30

OK so we know its a DMU service but why did NR built any OHLE on that spur when the reality is that this is just useless to any true electric train.

I do believe a similar statement is true for South Tottenham stn on the Gospel Oak to Barking line

I can understand AC/DC crossover points but these sections really are of no valid use to any EMU or electric loco and even though OLE is there the stretch of track is in reality only diesel freindly

I'm really puzzled as to why this sort of thing happens

 

[Zoidberg]

Post deleted - link corrected

 

[MK Tom]

I used to wonder about the little stubs at places like Nuneaton and Rugeley. I assumed they were in case trains overran or to provide extra operational flexibility. They also reduce the amount of work needed to later electrify that line.

 

[SamanthaJ1989]

If its energised then NR are wasting money

 

[Zoidberg]

If its energised then NR are wasting money

If it's energised but nothing is drawing power from that spur then where is the waste?

 

[AlexS]

If its energised then NR are wasting money

Electricity isn't like water, it doesn't just flow out of the wires. It circuits until it is drawn by something. I would assume that none of these stubs are independent OHLE sections anyway and are part of the larger sections they are attached to.

 

[starrymarkb]

I've not looked at the videos but South Tottenham is an EMU diversion route from the West Anglia line. Similarly the section from Barking to near Wanstead Park allows EMUs and Electric Freight from Tilbury/Rainham to access the GEML and then the NLL.

Is the Newcastle one the single line over the high level bridge? if so that allows Mk4 sets to head south if there is a problem on the other bridge, or if a set needs to be turned in service.

 

[tbtc]

See also Stockport to Hazel Grove (one EMU a week?).

I'm sure it'll get more use when the services around Manchester are re-jigged (and the line to Preston etc electrified), but at the moment it's not much use.

 

[yorkie]

I can understand AC/DC crossover points but these sections really are of no valid use to any EMU or electric loco and even though OLE is there the stretch of track is in reality only diesel freindly

I appreciate this is very rare, but what would happen if a driver accepted a wrong route, and realised shortly after taking it, stopping the train just beyond the junction, and there was no OLE for any distance beyond the junction?

Also when it comes to expanding electrification, perhaps the way it has been done is to avoid disrupting the existing lines, if at all possible?

I do believe a similar statement is true for South Tottenham stn on the Gospel Oak to Barking line

16:30 - electric line joins from the South
16:50 - South Tottenham station
17:24 - electric line diverges to the North
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See also Stockport to Hazel Grove (one EMU a week?).

I'm sure it'll get more use when the services around Manchester are re-jigged (and the line to Preston etc electrified), but at the moment it's not much use.

My understanding is that there was a regular EMU service several years ago. The switch to mostly diesel traction may have coincided with the completion of the spur to Manchester Airport.

 

[transmanche]

Take this approch to newcastle. The lower line is clearly a diesel line (no electrification whatsoever and they just before the station electrify a small portion of the other 2 tracks. However any electric loco/EMU won't get anywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEplJsmVbqo

Take a look at 0.47-1.20

Well, firstly it can act as a short piece of overrun - should an electric train be routed onto the wrong line. In the specific example in the video, you'll notice a connection from the 'electric lines' (the ECML) to the 'diesel lines' (the Newcastle-Carlisle line) which enables electric trains from the south to access the High Level Bridge and vice versa (useful if a train needs to be reversed in service).

Specific example, a 91+mkIV set heading from Edinburgh-London arrives in Newcastle and there's a fault in the leading DVT. It can set off to London via the High Level Bridge with the 91 leading and using the King Edward South junction and that crossover it can access the ECML heading south. It saves having to cancel the train, so it's very useful.

 

[tbtc]

when it comes to expanding electrification, perhaps the way it has been done is to avoid disrupting the existing lines, if at all possible?

I think of these electrified spurs like the stunted motorway sliproads that were built

As an example, the M1 north of Sheffield has a restricted junction (35A), but you can see (at the top of the image) where the sliproads were started in case funding were found to complete the missing parts:

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Th...+Hesley,+South+Yorkshire,+United+Kingdom&z=17

 

[tom1649]

The switch to mostly diesel traction may have coincided with the completion of the spur to Manchester Airport.

The switch occurred in December 2008 when Hazel Grove services were extended to Preston. The surplus 323s as a result of this were used to extend the Manchester Piccadilly - Macclesfield service to Stoke.

 

[Crossover]

Colton Junction just south of York has a short stretch of electrification on the line towards Leeds - it won't ever get used but I guess electrifying the rest of that line (which is due to happen) will be easier as the junction is already sorted. Also useful for a potential overrun where wrong routed etc too

I believe there is electrification just south of Carlisle on towards the S&C. Though not used regularly, I understand (from reading here) that it is sometimes used to shunt Pendos out of the way during disruption in order to free up platform space at the station.

 

[mirodo]

I appreciate this is very rare, but what would happen if a driver accepted a wrong route, and realised shortly after taking it, stopping the train just beyond the junction, and there was no OLE for any distance beyond the junction?

Get out and push?

 

[Crossover]

Well, firstly it can act as a short piece of overrun - should an electric train be routed onto the wrong line. In the specific example in the video, you'll notice a connection from the 'electric lines' (the ECML) to the 'diesel lines' (the Newcastle-Carlisle line) which enables electric trains from the south to access the High Level Bridge and vice versa (useful if a train needs to be reversed in service).

Specific example, a 91+mkIV set heading from Edinburgh-London arrives in Newcastle and there's a fault in the leading DVT. It can set off to London via the High Level Bridge with the 91 leading and using the King Edward South junction and that crossover it can access the ECML heading south. It saves having to cancel the train, so it's very useful.

I believe such moves are scheduled each day as well (probably for route knowledge retention)

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think of these electrified spurs like the stunted motorway sliproads that were built

As an example, the M1 north of Sheffield has a restricted junction (35A), but you can see (at the top of the image) where the sliproads were started in case funding were found to complete the missing parts:

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Th...+Hesley,+South+Yorkshire,+United+Kingdom&z=17

I live 2 minutes away from junction 35a and have noticed that! (although i have only ever used that bit of motorway once) Northbound we go to 36 southbound 35a so that short section never gets used.

 

[Taunton]

Many of the examples above are indeed to handle accidental mis-routings of electric trains, so they can either be brought to a stand in time or to avoid the damage that might happen to the main wiring if the pantograph runs off the side.

However, there have also been varying design standards for this over time; the most substantial seemed to be the first stages of the WCML electrification around 1960, around Liverpool/Manchester, which wired up significant amounts of sidings and spurs, quite a lot of which was possibly never used. Later stages of this electrification were much more economical in design. The large marshalling yard at Crewe Basford Hall was fully wired all tracks, even though electric locomotives never penetrated over much of it, only diesel shunters being used. We once calculated that the total mileage of unnecessary wiring in there would have gone much of the way to wiring from Crewe to Kidsgrove, which would have been of considerable value.

 

[tbtc]

I live 2 minutes away from junction 35a and have noticed that! (although i have only ever used that bit of motorway once) Northbound we go to 36 southbound 35a so that short section never gets used.

I can't see the "missing link" being that well used if they did build it (since traffic from Leeds/ Barnsley towards High Green/ Sheffield would continue to use 36, as you do), but presumably they decided that it was easier to put half a sliproad in place rather than starting from scratch should the money ever be found.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if the wired section is not long enough for the train to stop, it gives a bit more time for the driver to realise there is something wrong and lower the pan.

If a train is misrouted and is going too fast to stop and the driver doesn't lower the pan, then having the whole junction wired probably means the pan runs off the end of the OLE and rises up until either the overheight sensor trips or it hits a bridge. Either way the train need dragging back but there is no damage to the OLE.

If only the tracks intended for use by electrics were wired, then for example turning right at a double junction the wire would go off the end of the pan as it left the first electrified track, and the pan would start to rise and hook itself into the catenary above the diamond. This would almost certainly bring down the OLE above the diamond, leaving the whole area unusable until the mess is cleared up.

 

[sprinterguy]

I believe there is electrification just south of Carlisle on towards the S&C. Though not used regularly, I understand (from reading here) that it is sometimes used to shunt Pendos out of the way during disruption in order to free up platform space at the station.

The shunt neck that runs down the bank towards London Road junction from Carlisle station is electrified, however I don't think that the parallel single line that leads to the S&C and Tyne Valley lines is.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The shunt neck that runs down the bank towards London Road junction from Carlisle station is electrified.

So that electrics can shunt ... this is the reason Farington Jn to Lostock Hall is wired, so that trains from the BL works could run round locally to go south.

 

[snowball]

As an example, the M1 north of Sheffield has a restricted junction (35A), but you can see (at the top of the image) where the sliproads were started in case funding were found to complete the missing parts:

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Th...+Hesley,+South+Yorkshire,+United+Kingdom&z=17

Off topic for this board, but there were stubs there, both north- and south-facing, from when the M1 was first built. The present A616 and junction 35A came 15 or 20 years later, as the A suggests. The junction used the south-facing stubs (probably subtly changing their alignment) and left the north-facing ones untouched.

There's conflicting evidence on the question of whether the original stubs were for a never-built service area, or for the never-completed M67 from Manchester, or both.

As the Stocksbridge bypass and link (the present A616) was eventually built as a non-motorway (though roughly where the motorway would have been), it was OK to build it with a junction where it crosses the A61, so there was no need to complete the north-facing slip roads as the A61 provides a more direct route.

This has all been discussed on the SABRE forums.

 

[joeykins82]

Ultimately if a section of OLE is connected to another section then, by definition, it isn't useless. Whether it be a diversionary route, for infrastructure protection or just for future planning for if/when the currently-unwired route out of a junction gets electrified it cannot be considered useless.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
If a train is misrouted and is going too fast to stop and the driver doesn't lower the pan, then having the whole junction wired probably means the pan runs off the end of the OLE and rises up until either the overheight sensor trips or it hits a bridge. Either way the train need dragging back but there is no damage to the OLE. ...

I recall in the early days of St Pancras electrification a 317 pootling off onto an unelectrified stub at the station throat on the west side, and giving an overhanging structure (signal cabin?) an undignified poke. [Tried to fond a picture - failed - but the selection I was offered did include a cyclist wearing nothing but a sou'wester!]

 

[Ploughman]

When York was electrified the first Electric Charter service for the Electrification people themselves I believe.
Was sent down the Scarborough line but did not get far.

 

[alex17595]

There is a small section in the derby depot I believe.

Not useless but on some station (Preston or Lancaster) where only a part of some platforms are electrified. seems quite pointless.

 

[455driver]

Where 2 electrified lines run into a 6 coach platform you will need 6 sets of overhead wires (one for each platform), 2 will be on the incoming lines and 4 will have to start somewhere, they cant all start at the same place because the weights would interfere with each other and would probably pull the stanchion over. So where there is a non electrified line they will start one (or possibly 2) on there so the stresses are spread over a number of stanchions, it might mean putting up a few stanchions that are not really necessary but it is cheaper to do it that way than keep having to repair the other stanchions.

There is also an element of truth in electrifying a short section just in case of an oops moment.

I wont mention the short section of non electrified line at Birmingham New Street that electric locos used to coast over by lowering their pantographs so they could access the loco holding sidings.

 

[Darren R]

The switch occurred in December 2008 when Hazel Grove services were extended to Preston. The surplus 323s as a result of this were used to extend the Manchester Piccadilly - Macclesfield service to Stoke.

It was the opening of the Windsor Link that knocked electric services on the head. GMPTE paid for the wires to go up from Edgley Junction to Hazel Grove in 1981 - the edge of their jurisdiction and also to improve journeys to Stepping Hill Hospital. Services were hourly through to Altrincham via Piccadilly, with an extra hourly shuttle at peak times from Picc. When the Windsor Link opened fully (with the May 1989 timetable) and service patterns were recast, Buxton got an half-hourly service from Piccadilly, one all-shacks and one semi-fast. This was when Hazel Grove lost its regular electric services. EMUs have been infrequent and irregular ever since.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There is a long bit of 3rd rail over-run protection west of Basingstoke on the Salisbury line as well; I believe that despite it being quite a long section a unit still managed to get stranded off the juice once...

 

[Eagle]

I can't see the "missing link" being that well used if they did build it (since traffic from Leeds/ Barnsley towards High Green/ Sheffield would continue to use 36, as you do), but presumably they decided that it was easier to put half a sliproad in place rather than starting from scratch should the money ever be found.

Actually, M1 J35a isn't abandoned sliproads, it's an abandoned service area site from when the M1 first opened in 1968. The connections for it were reused when J35a opened in 1989.

There are a lot of planned service areas which were provided for bt never got biult, mainly because motorway planners in the 1960s thought that drivers would need a lot more services than they do currently.