Used ticket

[AnxiousMum]

Hello all, any advice would be gratefully received.

My 18 year old daughter travelled from Nailsea & Backwell to Exeter St David’s station and had her return ticket on her mobile phone declined. At the gate, the scanner first declined it, then on a second attempt with a guard, said it had already been used. The guard at the gate checked her ticket and agreed it looked valid and hadn’t been used, but his colleague disagreed and called the inspector.
I think he has cautioned her for fare evasion. He told her to expect a letter with the cost of the ticket and a fine. That if she wishes to appeal, it would go to court.

She was very distressed and asked if she could speak with him quietly somewhere to take it all in. He refused and told her “once we go into a room, the procedure changes and once I shut the door you can’t leave” -obviously this terrified her, she gave her details and ran home crying. She phoned me and was very confused about whether she was going to be prosecuted.
I’ve read various posts to try and find something similar, but still can’t be clear whether she’s likely to be prosecuted or just fined. I’d like to be forewarned so I can help her anxiety.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The return portion of the ticket would have had to have been activated on the phone on the actual day on which it was to be used for travel. If it had been activated the day before or indeed on any date between the date of the outward journey and the return journey, then it would look "used". There will be helpful advice here in the forum. Meanwhile she should calm down and wait for letter.

 

[Haywain]

The return portion of the ticket would have had to have been activated on the phone on the actual day on which it was to be used for travel. If it had been activated the day before or indeed on any date between the date of the outward journey and the return journey, then it would look "used". There will be helpful advice here in the forum. Meanwhile she should calm down and wait for letter.

Completely wrong. The ticket is a (Trainline issued) e-ticket so does not require activation. However, looking at the dates on the ticket, I wonder if it had actually been used for the planned journey on February 9th and the OP's daughter has presented the ticket on a later date mistakenly.

 

[AnxiousMum]

Thank you, that’s helpful.

 

[WesternLancer]

View attachment 75041 View attachment 75040 Hello all, any advice would be gratefully received.

My 18 year old daughter travelled from Nailsea & Backwell to Exeter St David’s station and had her return ticket on her mobile phone declined. At the gate, the scanner first declined it, then on a second attempt with a guard, said it had already been used. The guard at the gate checked her ticket and agreed it looked valid and hadn’t been used, but his colleague disagreed and called the inspector.
I think he has cautioned her for fare evasion. He told her to expect a letter with the cost of the ticket and a fine. That if she wishes to appeal, it would go to court.

She was very distressed and asked if she could speak with him quietly somewhere to take it all in. He refused and told her “once we go into a room, the procedure changes and once I shut the door you can’t leave” -obviously this terrified her, she gave her details and ran home crying. She phoned me and was very confused about whether she was going to be prosecuted.
I’ve read various posts to try and find something similar, but still can’t be clear whether she’s likely to be prosecuted or just fined. I’d like to be forewarned so I can help her anxiety.

Welcome to the forum - you have come to a good place for advice.

Your daughter needs to wait for the formal letter from them.

In the meantime sit down with her and make some notes eg

what happened (as above really in your OP)
when and exactly where - what was precise time of train, who operated it, where did this happen (if she is not sure, with clues ppl here can work that out for you in terms of who operated train etc if you have info on time, or even colour of train maybe)
Could she have accidentally downloaded the ticket on the wrong day - eg rtn portion
Think of any evidence that you could provide that would prove to a reasonable degree that she would not have used the train (or the rtn portion of ticket) on the wrong day - make a note of it
All that sort of thing.

could be a few weeks or longer before any letter arrives so best get these notes down now in cases needed in worst case scenario.

Hope this helps for now. Do come back to forum with follow up q's or in due course when you need more advice.

 

[30907]

Can we just clarify? AIUI she travelled on 7 Feb to Exeter and returned on 9 Feb when she was challenged? Or did she return on a different date?

 

[AnxiousMum]

She travelled to Exeter yesterday as she thought it was still valid.

 

[Haywain]

She travelled to Exeter yesterday as she thought it was still valid.

Did she travel from Nailsea to Exeter on February 9th? If she did, the ticket was not valid for use yesterday.

 

[AnxiousMum]

Welcome to the forum - you have come to a good place for advice.

Your daughter needs to wait for the formal letter from them.

In the meantime sit down with her and make some notes eg

what happened (as above really in your OP)
when and exactly where - what was precise time of train, who operated it, where did this happen (if she is not sure, with clues ppl here can work that out for you in terms of who operated train etc if you have info on time, or even colour of train maybe)
Could she have accidentally downloaded the ticket on the wrong day - eg rtn portion
Think of any evidence that you could provide that would prove to a reasonable degree that she would not have used the train (or the rtn portion of ticket) on the wrong day - make a note of it
All that sort of thing.

could be a few weeks or longer before any letter arrives so best get these notes down now in cases needed in worst case scenario.

Hope this helps for now. Do come back to forum with follow up q's or in due course when you need more advice.

Many thanks. We will do this.

 

[AnxiousMum]

Did she travel from Nailsea to Exeter on February 9th? If she did, the ticket was not valid for use yesterday.

Possibly- it could be that she has either acted foolishly, thinking she could reuse it, if it hadn’t been scanned. Or, it could be that she changed her mind about travelling on the 9th and used it yesterday instead. I’d need to check with her.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For future reference, Trainline's app allows you to mark a ticket as used and remove it, which means you don't accidentally re-use it (or get tempted to do so deliberately). The link to do so is on the second screen you included, if you scroll down.

 

[WesternLancer]

Possibly- it could be that she has either acted foolishly, thinking she could reuse it, if it hadn’t been scanned. Or, it could be that she changed her mind about travelling on the 9th and used it yesterday instead. I’d need to check with her.

OK - obv you need to check this with her (if she did re-use it of course that is dishonest, but she won't be the 1st 18 year old to have done that and go caught) hopefully you can have a helpful chat with her and get the accurate facts from her which she can be honest with you about, as I'm sure you will want her to be.
In either case (re-used ticket vs misunderstood ticket eligibility vs confused by electronic ticket etc) be re-assured that people here can give good advice to minimise consequences of this and take appropriate action accordingly. maybe when you have clarified facts as far as possible you will feel able to post those so further advice can be given.

 

[some bloke]

He told her to expect a letter with the cost of the ticket and a fine. That if she wishes to appeal, it would go to court.

Then it's reasonable to hope for an out-of-court settlement (or possibly not even that, if it turns out she hasn't done anything "wrong"). Only a court can issue a fine.

It might not be completely surprising if a staff member said things which are more acceptable to the passenger than what transpires later. Hopefully an inspector would be more likely to say things that are accurate.

In the meantime sit down with her and make some notes

Could it be useful if she writes down, today, what she remembers the inspector saying and what she said to him?

She could note where she is sure of the exact words - while being aware that people can think they've remembered things accurately when they haven't.

If the inspector said the company would offer a settlement but the company doesn't immediately offer one, maybe a note of the conversation would be useful. She might as well write it down now, partly so that she can if necessary say "I wrote this the next day". I'm not saying the company would definitely stick to what the inspector said, but perhaps a court might regard it as abuse of process or look more kindly on her if she was convincing that she had been misled. So the prospect of either of those might be one factor discouraging the company from taking it to court.

If he misled her about the legal position ("Can't leave"?) or otherwise behaved unsuitably, that might form the basis of a separate complaint, or possibly useful background for responding to an allegation of an offence - but lack of solid evidence might be a problem.

Writing things down now could help avoid confusion later, even if they won't make a big difference to the action she takes.

can’t be clear whether she’s likely to be prosecuted or just fined.

It depends on:
a) what's happened;
b) what the company/their agent thinks of it at various stages; and maybe on
c) what she does at various stages.

The company could abandon talk of prosecution at any point. So if necessary your daughter could keep trying to persuade them to settle. It's even possible to turn up early at the court, ask staff where the prosecutor is, and attempt to persuade them in person. Even if she's broken the law, if she shows signs that she's learned from the experience and won't do it again, those would usually be factors in her favour.

If the company makes noises about moving to prosecution, some people would hire a lawyer - and that could have more effect. As you can see from this forum, after advice from here, often people don't need a solicitor.

 

[RPI]

Just to add, all GWR inspectors wear bodyworn video cameras recording audio and visual.

 

[30907]

Possibly- it could be that she has either acted foolishly, thinking she could reuse it, if it hadn’t been scanned. Or, it could be that she changed her mind about travelling on the 9th and used it yesterday instead. I’d need to check with her.

At the moment, other posters are advising on the basis that she is actually at fault. Knowing exactly which journeys she made when would clarify the situation.

 

[AnxiousMum]

Thank you all, you’ve been very helpful. I will sit down with her and suggest she writes a log of what she remembers. Also establish which journeys she took - and when.

So, I’m taking it that the general pattern is that an inspector takes the details, passes them and any evidence, plus a record of conversations (which are recorded) onto the company, who then write to the passenger in order to investigate or take them straight to court. Is that correct? It’s unlikely in this scenario that it will just be a penalty fine?

Can anyone shed any light on what the inspector might have meant by ‘if we go into a room, the process changes...’? And the part about not being able to leave, is that correct? Was he referring to detainment and is that appropriate if she’s just asked to go somewhere quiet so she can take in what he’s saying?

 

[RPI]

The part about the process when going into a room may have been misunderstood, the process of conducting a +3 PACE interview in a room does complicate the matter as the door has to be open (at a secure location such as a railway station this isn't possible if using a non-public area), there certainly would be no reason for an inspector to say she couldn't leave.

She would have been handed a "withdrawn ticket receipt" even if no ticket was withdrawn, it doubles up as a "what happens next" card and will have a QR code that links to GWR revenue protection policy, you can also find this here GWR.com/revenueprotection, generally GWR offer an out of court settlement with the first letter along with an opportunity to provide any mitigation. Again it's worth noting that the entire interaction would have been recorded on the inspectors bodyworn video camera of which you can request a copy in line with GWR's policy on the use of CCTV.

It's also possible now that during the inspectors investigation they will acquire your daughters account history to look for any instances of other tickets used more than once and any refunds where the ticket may have been used first, this is something we were doing more now with mobile tickets.

 

[some bloke]

it's reasonable to hope for an out-of-court settlement (or possibly not even that, if it turns out she hasn't done anything "wrong").

the company, who then write to the passenger in order to investigate or take them straight to court. Is that correct? It’s unlikely in this scenario that it will just be a penalty fine?

GWR.com/revenueprotection, generally GWR offer an out of court settlement with the first letter

To add to what @RPI writes, the "full revenue protection policy" document (linked on that page) says

"We’ll probably send you an offer to settle out of court"
(page 25)

and that prosecution is

"usually when a customer has been reported to our Prosecutions department before"
(page 27).

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdf...-prosecutions-policy-a5-port-220617.pdf?la=en

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all, you’ve been very helpful. I will sit down with her and suggest she writes a log of what she remembers. Also establish which journeys she took - and when.

So, I’m taking it that the general pattern is that an inspector takes the details, passes them and any evidence, plus a record of conversations (which are recorded) onto the company, who then write to the passenger in order to investigate or take them straight to court. Is that correct? It’s unlikely in this scenario that it will just be a penalty fine?

Can anyone shed any light on what the inspector might have meant by ‘if we go into a room, the process changes...’? And the part about not being able to leave, is that correct? Was he referring to detainment and is that appropriate if she’s just asked to go somewhere quiet so she can take in what he’s saying?

Obv good answers from others but worth being aware (I've not checked if this applies here which rather depends on who 'apprehended' your daughter) - some train operators use sub contractor like TIL (Transport Investigations Ltd) to do leg work on cases for them, and pass the details the staff member obtained from your daughter to said contractor (eg TIL). You don't have to read these forum threads for long to realise that dealing with them is obv a bit of a nightmare when it comes to trying to have a 'dialogue' about anything - esp if the case is not cut and dried fare evasion.

Of course you have not yet posted details of the train / staff etc so certain levels of presumption that it was GWR train / staff your daughter dealt with.

You may be able to get any paperwork / receipt from your daughter - do not loose this - scan it / photo it, anonymyse it and upload here and it will help responders clarify what happened and what is likely to happen next as a result. That is bound to be helpful if possible.

Even if your daughter did dodge the fare / commit an offence, advice on here often explains how to go about mitigating the consequences of this for her (future career wise and bank balance wise...)

As an aside, obv e tickets and online tickets are convenient but there are enough cases on the forum to suggest that people do have certain problems with them and validity issues etc. I don't use them. So you may want to think (depending maybe on what has happened here) if you and your family are more comfortable with trad paper ticket - I know I am! Having said this obv I do see lots of staff checking tickets on people's phones seemingly without problems but...

 

[Haywain]

It is ridiculous to be suggesting that there are problems with e-tickets when we don't even know the full circumstances of this case. There are plenty of posters on these forums who are more than happy to use them.

M-tickets are a different matter, but that is not what is central to this thread.