Use RTN portion before OUT?

[life210]

Hi,

is it possible to use the RTN portion before the OUT journey on a off peak return ticket.

EG Leeds to Sheffield return.

 

[yorkie]

It is not permitted.

Once you start to use the return portion, the outward portion ceases to have any validity whatsoever.

 

[Starmill]

You can use the return having not used the out. But you can't then go on to use said outward portion. Strictly speaking outward portions are only valid when presented with the unused return.

 

[Romilly]

And you can be asked to show the return portion of your ticket during a ticket inspection on your outward journey.

 

[Starmill]

You can indeed. The reason I added 'strictly' was because I've never heard of this actually being done!

 

[yorkie]

You can indeed. The reason I added 'strictly' was because I've never heard of this actually being done!

I have, but in practice it's only likely to occur when on any day following the first day of validity. For example when a teenager used an SOR on the final day of validity (then valid for a month) on GNER from York-London, which happened to be a bank holiday, one of GNERs infamously desperate Guards of the time (anyone remember them?) did ask to see the RTN portion and appeared to be visibly unhappy and disappointed when a pristine RTN portion was produced.

So yes it can, and does, happen. But not routinely otherwise ticket inspections would take a lot longer, meaning uncollected fares and unchecked passengers!

 

[amateur]

i know this were a few years ago now - but why did they change the peak open returns so that the outbound is valid for 5 days?

 

[Hadders]

Because it effectively became a season ticket if the ticket was unstamped.

 

[John @ home]

why did they change the peak open returns so that the outbound is valid for 5 days?

When I was young, both outward and return legs of ordinary return tickets were valid for 3 months. This was later reduced to 1 month.

In an attempt to reduce multiple use of tickets, the outward portion was later limited to (journeys starting on) the first day, with the return portion still valid for one month. This did not please a number of large companies who were significant users of First Class accommodation and threatened to change their recommended travel mode for their executives from rail to car. The change to validity of 5 days for the outward portion was a compromise, implemented a few months after the reduction to 1 day.

 

[Ediswan]

Strictly speaking outward portions are only valid when presented with the unused return.

Where is this written down for passengers to see ?

 

[tony_mac]

In the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
That's probably the first place to look for any such things.

 

[Romilly]

The current condition 17 says:

17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where is this written down for passengers to see ?

The outward portion usually has 'two part return' written across the bottom. I think that's supposed to act as a strong hint, some might disagree.

(BTW does that still appear on the latest new formats?)

 

[Ediswan]

The outward portion usually has 'two part return' written across the bottom. I think that's supposed to act as a strong hint, some might disagree.

I have always taken that to be making it clear that you need to keep track of the other part to make your return journey. Single part return tickets are common elsewhere.

 

[Romilly]

If the outward portion is only valid if the return portion is unused, to show that the outward portion is valid you would need to be able to show that the return portion is unused. The most obvious way of doing that is by producing an unmarked return portion. Alternatively, if the tickets have been printed off just before commencing the outward journey, I suppose that you could argue that it is not possible for you to have undertaken the return journey in the time since the tickets were printed (in that regard, I don't think that you can opt to print one part only of a two-part return ticket, but I stand ready to be corrected on that), but that seems like making life unnecessarily difficult for oneself.

 

[Dent]

The outward portion usually has 'two part return' written across the bottom. I think that's supposed to act as a strong hint, some might disagree.

So does the return portion, and that's definitely not "supposed to act as a strong hint" that the return portion is only valid if the outward has not been used.

You're trying to read something into nothing there.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So does the return portion, and that's definitely not "supposed to act as a strong hint" that the return portion is only valid if the outward has not been used.

Assuming you mean that the outward portion is only valid if the return has not been used, that is covered by NRCoC condition 17 - so no hint, strong or otherwise, is needed!

 

[Dent]

Assuming you mean that the outward portion is only valid if the return has not been used, that is covered by NRCoC condition 17 - so no hint, strong or otherwise, is needed!

I was responding to the claim that the words "two part return" on the outward portion are a "strong hint" that is is not valid without an unused return portion. I pointed out that that reasoning is flawed, since the same words on the other portion do not mean the converse.

Whatever the NRCoC says is not the point of my post, I was responding to the flawed reasoning presented in the post I quoted.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was responding to the claim that the words "two part return" on the outward portion are a "strong hint" that is is not valid without an unused return portion. I pointed out that that reasoning is flawed, since the same words on the other portion do not mean the converse.

I don't think that is in doubt. But to meet the railway's existing rules someone using a return portion would normally be assumed to have already used the out portion.

 

[Dent]

I don't think that is in doubt. But to meet the railway's existing rules someone using a return portion would normally be assumed to have already used the out portion.

Indeed, the return portion is definitely valid without an unused outward portion, despite having the words "two part return" on it.

Conclusion: The words "two part return" on one part of the return is not a "strong hint" that it is only valid if the other part is unused.