Use of horns

[ChrisCooper]

Considering the concern recently about fatalities on level crossings, I can't help wonder if the rules on horn use are not playing a part. I remember until the changes, travelling on trains along many routes the horn would constantly be going. These days you hardly hear the horn at all unless there are workers on the track, and when you do it's nearly always a single tone. This all comes down to the issue of noise pollution and complaints about noise, particularly coming from the fact that the horns on modern units are louder than those on the slammers. Surely though safety should come first. I know the rules say both tones should be used when people are visible near the tracks, but surely the main risk isn't the people you can see but the people you can't see who probably can't see you. It would be interesting to know what risk assesment was carried out before the rule change, and if the use of (or not) horns could have played a part in any of the incidents, particularly if horns were not used (or only single tones) but would have been used under the old regulations. It would also be interesting to see what drivers think of this.
What I fear most is that this isn't something that the authorities want to consider because going back would both be unpopular with those who complained in the first place, but would also lead to a backlash from those who would suggest that the desision lead to avoidable fatalities.

 

[First class]

Drivers are entitled to use the horn whenever they believe it is required in the interests of safety, regardless of what their TOC/Network Rail tells them.

Even if you sound the horn on approach to a LC, you still get nut jobs crossing in front.

 

[NLC1072]

going on the side of noise pollution, I know some stations that have had to turn their PA systems off because of "noise pollution" complaints from people who moved next to the railway full well knowing this was the case. ANNOYING!!!!

 

[Minilad]

As far as I am concerned if I feel the horn needs to be blown it will be blown. And I doubt any driver would get any form of discipline for sounding the horn at anytime. The rule book has a provision for sounding the horn anytime the driver feels it is necessary.
Its true though that the requirement to sound the horn has been reduced a lot over recent years. Entering and leaving tunnels and passing through stations with a train stationary on the adjacent platform are two removals that don't make much sense to me

 

[Schnellzug]

Not wanting to cause Annoyance is one of the biggest dangers to health and Safety, if you ask me. These people who Moan ought to try living in America, where (except in a few prescribed areas) there's a prescribed pattern of blowing the horn when approaching a crossing.

 

[Rugd1022]

As far as I am concerned if I feel the horn needs to be blown it will be blown. And I doubt any driver would get any form of discipline for sounding the horn at anytime. The rule book has a provision for sounding the horn anytime the driver feels it is necessary.
Its true though that the requirement to sound the horn has been reduced a lot over recent years. Entering and leaving tunnels and passing through stations with a train stationary on the adjacent platform are two removals that don't make much sense to me

Well put XCD... I still use the horn when passing through stations where a train is staionary in the adjacent platform, I'd much rather do it than not. I'm also in the habbit of giving a quick blast when approaching a platform where passengers have strayed over the yellow lines, especially when charging through at 60mph with 20 loaded wagons in tow.... the foul looks I often get because of it notwithstanding, it's for their own good. At certain foot crossings I pass over with whistle boards, I'll often give a second toot closer to the crossing itself, as some of the locals I see using them regularly don't take much notice of the first one. Some folk just seem to be oblivious to the dangers.

 

[jon0844]

Most drivers blow the horn when flying through on the down fast at Hatfield (platform 2), if a train is in the down slow (platform 3). It's just as well, as a lot of people - despite the island being very wide - do walk over to platform 2 and walk very near, or over, the yellow line.

Given the speed of the line, there is actually quite a lot of turbulence (hence the warnings) but people still seem oblivious.

 

[driver9000]

I often blow the horn when passing a train stood in a platform. I didn't like the single tone rule when it was introduced and I still sound both tones at certain crossings. If I see someone stood at a crossing without a W board I sometimes sound the horn especially if they aren't looking in my direction or a train is on the opposite line. Last thing I want is someone walking out in front of me. Schoolkids tend to be the worst in my experience, I pass over a crossing that is on the route between a high school and a housing estate so I always blow for that at school times because the kids just don't seem to look.

 

[jon0844]

And this is why drivers should be told to do this as a matter of course, as it prevents (for the sake of the idiot pedestrian - of which there seems to be so many) the gamble of whether the individual train approaching them has a driver that will use the horn.

I am shocked the rule book ever changed this, and glad that many drivers still use common sense.

 

[myboysam]

The rules state there are 15 times to blow the horn and at the bottom of the page it also says that the driver can use it at any other time he/she feels it necessary. I use it if I'm coming round Cambuslang and not stopping on the up line to Edinburgh as the station is situated on a left hand curve and you cant see it until youre almost upon it. It always makes my heart beat a little faster in case some little kid is a wee bit too close to the platform edge.

But in response to the OP, if there is a need I always use it.

 

[ObservationCar]

Interesting topic actually. My house backs onto the Kyle line, close to one of 3 level crossings which are very close together, there are whistle boards for all crossings as they are busy with cars and pedestrians and a High School close by too. We have had loads of bother with crossings intermitently working, so the horns are essential and the driver has got a restricted view in most cases of whats at the crossing.

My point is though, a new train started last Monday (train replacement service as the bus cant get past Stromeferry) which passes through the town at 0645 but does not use its horns, is their a time restriction on there use? The horns can normally be heard throughout the whole town and echos through the Valley known as Strathpeffer

 

[142094]

is their a time restriction on there use?

I believe there is now, there was a similar discussion on this topic last year and someone had the exact times.

 

[driver9000]

Horns are not required to be used at W boards between 23:00 and 07:00.

 

[jon0844]

Fair enough. Why not re-introduce horns for more crossings and stations, with the same time restriction (excluding situations where a driver feels it necessary).

 

[Rugd1022]

Fair enough. Why not re-introduce horns for more crossings and stations, with the same time restriction (excluding situations where a driver feels it necessary).

Because the people who complained about the noise in the first place would no doubt do so again....! This was why the ruling was changed, but a lot of us still use our collective noodles and use the horn where we see fit

 

[TDK]

Not wanting to cause Annoyance is one of the biggest dangers to health and Safety, if you ask me. These people who Moan ought to try living in America, where (except in a few prescribed areas) there's a prescribed pattern of blowing the horn when approaching a crossing.

If the crossing does not have 27 seconds visiblility of a train approaching a whistle board will be provided
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember until the changes, travelling on trains along many routes the horn would constantly be going. These days you hardly hear the horn at all unless there are workers on the track, and when you do it's nearly always a single tone.

I must have sounded the horn 30 times this morning on one trip, mostly Pway and whistle boards but also at 6 stations where passengers were close to the edge, when doing 100mph in a loco this is a must!

 

[RPM]

The "low tone only" business doesn't worry me that much - I just give it an extra long blast to compensate! The night time horn restriction does annoy me though. Instructing drivers to only sound the horn if they actually see someone on the crossing is crazy. By the time you see a crossing user in the dark they are as good as dead anyway. Luckily, as others have pointed out, the rule book does allow drivers a little window of discretion, so common sense can be applied.

 

[Crossover]

Stafford is a station that can't use the PA after a certain time (I think it is 10pm) due to noise pollution. I have been stood a distance away and can see how far the sound actually does travel, though really, when there are PIS' dotted all over, the lack of late night announcements is really only a minr inconvenience.

I think we have had a few pway gangs out on the railway near where I'm working and it seems to have become more common that the drivers give a damn good toot on the horn (a lot of cases it is both tones) as they come through (the stoppers sometimes do too) - doesn't really bother me generally though I can understand why any local residents may get annoyed, but at the end of the day, they are there for a purpose of safety.

I kind of feel in some respects it is akin (OK, in a different not so safety critical sense, before I get pounced on :P) to when I was taught to drive (a car) and that if you don't see anyone around, they teach you not to bother indicating. Still don't understand why as you could have missed someone to whom the signal may be useful - it is hardly going to get broken from using more often than is necessary and could help someone if they appeared from somewhere you hadn't noticed or such. Anyway, that's slightly off topic, so as we were :P

 

[Bald Rick]

If the crossing does not have 27 seconds visiblility of a train approaching a whistle board will be provided

Not quite correct. A whistle board will be provided at crossings where the user is required to make the decision to cross with no assistance from warning lights or a telephone AND there is insufficient sighting time for the crossing movement to be completed before an approaching train arrives at the crossing.

Sufficient sighting time can be as little as 6 seconds for a footpath crossing on a single line.

 

[150222]

My driver once hooted at some men (presumably mates) in the car park while pulling away from a station. They didn't seem connected to the railway though.

 

[Schnellzug]

Stafford is a station that can't use the PA after a certain time (I think it is 10pm) due to noise pollution. I have been stood a distance away and can see how far the sound actually does travel, though really, when there are PIS' dotted all over, the lack of late night announcements is really only a minr inconvenience.

That'd be a postive relief; imagine being bombarded with "May we have your attention please ..." all night long. That's another area where excessive announcements is counter-productive, since people very rarely do take any notice, so they might miss something imporant if something important is said.

 

[myboysam]

My driver once hooted at some men (presumably mates) in the car park while pulling away from a station. They didn't seem connected to the railway though.

And did you make a complaint or report him or come on here and ask for clarification before doing any of the things I just mentioned???

 

[150222]

And did you make a complaint or report him or come on here and ask for clarification before doing any of the things I just mentioned???

I never said there was anything wrong with it. Just mentioning it and no I didn't report her.




(If your going on about those old treads stop.)

 

[Crossover]

That'd be a postive relief; imagine being bombarded with "May we have your attention please ..." all night long. That's another area where excessive announcements is counter-productive, since people very rarely do take any notice, so they might miss something imporant if something important is said.

Stafford is manual announcements (as with the majority, if not all, of the VT managed stations) so you don't tend to get all the random drivel of the automated systems. The sound still travels a fair way though (since I heard them stood on the bridge next to Stafford North signal box)

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

Enfield Lock is a good example on when drivers don't use horns (another reason why I hated NXEA) as people are often in front of the yellow line and the trains come in oblivious to the people on the platform. The drivers never sound the horn and I think it's a bit awkward, too with a level crossing next to it.

 

[transmanche]

That's another area where excessive announcements is counter-productive, since people very rarely do take any notice, so they might miss something imporant if something important is said.

I believe it was for this reason that when the 1996 stock was introduced on LU's Jubilee line, all the 'routine' announcements ('This is..", "Change for...", "This train terminates at...") used a female voice. But non-routine announcements (e.g. train terminating short of its scheduled destination, etc.) used a male voice.

The logic being that regular travellers would eventually 'tune out' from the routine announcements - but using a different voice for non-routine announcements would still catch their attention.

 

[VP185]

Sounding the horn all depends on what the indiviual driver perception of risk.... I go through crowded station platforms at 125mph with people standing the wrongside of the yellow line without sounding the horn. Those people have made that decision to stand there despite information being displaying at the station and announcements being made.

The recent fatalities at LC have been down to misuse. A red light and instructions on how to use the crossing is, to me, is pretty self explanatory.
I've sounded the horn at people walking across LCs and they've continued to walk across without even turning round to look. Simple thing is, people may hear a warning horn but because they can't see a train will still cross. Also considering some people wearing their headphones as well, a warning horn isn't going to be heard.

Thick fog is a different matter though. Fog severely distorts hearing and vision.

 

[IanXC]

I kind of feel in some respects it is akin (OK, in a different not so safety critical sense, before I get pounced on :P) to when I was taught to drive (a car) and that if you don't see anyone around, they teach you not to bother indicating. Still don't understand why as you could have missed someone to whom the signal may be useful - it is hardly going to get broken from using more often than is necessary and could help someone if they appeared from somewhere you hadn't noticed or such. Anyway, that's slightly off topic, so as we were :P

Did anyone else get taught this? My driving instructor certainly didn't!

Not quite correct. A whistle board will be provided at crossings where the user is required to make the decision to cross with no assistance from warning lights or a telephone AND there is insufficient sighting time for the crossing movement to be completed before an approaching train arrives at the crossing.

Sufficient sighting time can be as little as 6 seconds for a footpath crossing on a single line.

I wonder whether removing "or a telephone" from that would have a meaningful impact on the number of incidents?

 

[michael769]

Did anyone else get taught this? My driving instructor certainly didn't!

Yup! It is normal practice. The reason is to encourage drivers to think about their signalling and not get lazy and just signal.

Problem with the just signalling without thought approach is that it is very easy to fall into the trap of signalling after you start your manoeuvre (which sadly almost as commonplace on our roads as not signalling at all) instead of sufficiently long in advance to give other road users time to notice and react.

 

[Schnellzug]

Yup! It is normal practice. The reason is to encourage drivers to think about their signalling and not get lazy and just signal.

Problem with the just signalling without thought approach is that it is very easy to fall into the trap of signalling after you start your manoeuvre (which sadly almost as commonplace on our roads as not signalling at all) instead of sufficiently long in advance to give other road users time to notice and react.

yes; it encourages you to look around and see if there's anyone nearby, that's what I've heard. It can, as you say, be easy to "mirror-Signal-manouver" without actually thinking about any of those things.