Urgent help - short faring northern rail

[Anonymouse123]

Hi,



I have been buying tickets from the wrong station (short faring). The location is was supposed to be going on is a 20 min journey by train and has 3 stops before reaching the destination. I would buy the ticket from the last stop before the destination (trainline app).


A ticket inspector scanned my ticket and realised this and i came clean. He took my details and issued a travel incident report( i gave the correct details, name, address, dob). He said he will give me a warning and he showed the amount of the single ticket from my original destination (£6.30) was the amount i would have to pay, he said no fine. I feel so bad that i want to own up to it and let them know i’ve been doing it for a lot longer.



I didn’t know that what i was doing was really wrong. I thought it was more like a little white lie. I have been doing it for several months (8 atleast) but not everyday. A few times a week. I checked if someone else had done something similar online and realised just how serious it is and i am completely ashamed of what i have been doing. I was so ashamed that i deleted my trainline account(i know that everything i saved on a server, i didn’t delete it to avoid punishment) so i could do everything the correct way on northern rail app. I have seen people use a railcard and thought that was on the official app so i wanted to go forward the correct way.



I don’t want this to go to court as i am working in a field that doesn’t allow someone to work in that industry if they have a criminal record and i could lose my living, degree and post graduate qualifications. I am also the main breadwinner in my house and i am responsible for the long term caring and support of my mother who has health issues preventing her from working full time. She and the rest of my family won’t be able to survive without my income.



Please can someone help me on what to do. I’m begging you please. I don’t want this to go to court and i am happy to settle out of court and pay the full settlement immediately. I made a big mistake thinking it was a little one but my actions put my family at risk. I just want to make this right by paying a settlement.



The report happened almost 2 weeks ago and i am yet to receive a letter. Is it worth heading over to DRPU at York and explaining my situation to them to hopefully get them to agree to a settlement? My whole life has turned upside down and this could be disastrous for my family.



Please give me some advice.

 

[skyhigh]

Is it worth heading over to DRPU at York

No, absolutely not. There will be nobody there to speak to and they won't even let you in the building.

You just need to wait for them to write to you.

 

[Anonymouse123]

No, absolutely not. There will be nobody there to speak to and they won't even let you in the building.

You just need to wait for them to write to you.

Has anyone ever gone there to talk to them? I’m wondering if it’s possible to ask the reception if i can talk to someone at the DRPU.

This is stressing me and killing me inside. I want to continue to provide for my family and i don’t want to lose my career. My mother doesn’t have anyone else. I regret what i did but i want to make it right.

 

[AlterEgo]

Has anyone ever gone there to talk to them? I’m wondering if it’s possible to ask the reception if i can talk to someone at the DRPU.

They won’t deal with you except by correspondence. They may wish to audit your other purchases and will not contact you until they have ascertained the full picture.

It is extremely unwise to try to handle this matter in person or by phone, because you have committed an offence, perhaps multiple offences, and it is in your interests to say and do nothing until and if they contact you by letter or email.

 

[Anonymouse123]

They won’t deal with you except by correspondence. They may wish to audit your other purchases and will not contact you until they have ascertained the full picture.

It is extremely unwise to try to handle this matter in person or by phone, because you have committed an offence, perhaps multiple offences, and it is in your interests to say and do nothing until and if they contact you by letter or email.

What is the best course of action going forward. What is likely to happen and how do i fix it without escalating. Can you please help. I have a family to support.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is the best course of action going forward. What is likely to happen and how do i fix it without escalating. Can you please help. I have a family to support.

I’m afraid it is to wait for the correspondence. When it arrives, post it here, with your name obscured, and people can help you draft a reply which should avoid you being prosecuted. You will have to pay Northern’s administration costs, plus any and all fares avoided, but in most cases you can avoid prosecution.

 

[Gloster]

The letter can take anything from a couple of weeks to a couple of months to arrive: you will just have to wait and watch your post as you need to deal promptly with it once it arrives. When you post it in this thread, obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

And be very careful to buy the correct tickets for every journey you make from now on.

 

[Anonymouse123]

Ok, thank you everyone for your help. I will post the letter once it arrives.

 

[TheJester]

Which train operating company are you dealing with? Is it Transpennine?

 

[Gloster]

Which train operating company are you dealing with? Is it Transpennine?

It says Northern Rail in the title.

 

[MotCO]

There are probably two things you can do now.

1. Review your ticket purchase history to try to determine how many times you paid the incorrect fare. Multiply by the full price Anytime ticket for the correct journey to calculate the maximum you may have to pay the train company. Add around £150 for their costs.

2. Start saving this money. If you manage to get an Out of Court settlement, you will not have much time to pay any costs etc.

 

[Pushpit]

What is the best course of action going forward. What is likely to happen and how do i fix it without escalating. Can you please help. I have a family to support.

I can see this is a difficult period for you, and yes you may well be in some trouble here, and I think you appreciate more than anyone else how stupid it was, short faring is very easy to work out via querying computers, so you were bound to be found out at some point.

However without me trying to say this isn't important, nevertheless there is a limit to how much trouble you are in. You won't go to jail, you may well not go to court, but you do need to focus and properly follow the advice here and in your letter when it does come. If you are careful, honest and diligent then the process will come to an end and you will feel a lot better. Many people exaggerate the potential outcome - it's not great to be in your position, but it is not the end of the world. It will pass, and you will never have this ever again if you buy the correct fare for your journey. Try to focus on getting a good outcome here.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

From what you've told us it sounds as though you've been evading your fares on an industrial scale over many months and many people would say that a case like this really should end up in court. That said, Northern are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement to peole who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

What happens next is that Northern's Debt Recovery & Prosecutions Department will write to you at some point in the next few weeks. The letter will say they have received a report, are considering prosecutong you but ask for you version of events before they decide how to proceed. It is very important that you reply to this letter. I suggest your reply mentions:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Northern are entitled to prosecute you if they want to but they will normally offer an our of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate, with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase. In addition you will need to pay an admin fee, typically around £150. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered, payment in installments isn't allowed.

When it arrives, post a copy of it in this thread (but do redact personal details before doing so) along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read ot for you. In the meantime there isn't anything you can do until Northern's letter arrives - there is nothing to be gained by contacting Northern befreo they write to you. DO NOT visit their offices.

 

[Anonymouse123]

Hi,
It’s been 3 weeks but i have not receiced a letter yet (TIR was on 02/10/24). Can i chase them for if they have sent it?

Im scared on the potential outcomes. Please help!

 

[John R]

No, they could take up to 6 months, and there is no point in chasing them - you just have to wait in a queue for them to work through their caseload and get to yours.

 

[Anonymouse123]

What if they sent a letter out and it didn’t reach my address? I gave the correct address but sometimes issues with the post can happen.

Can i send them an email asking them if they have sent a letter out?

 

[Blinkbonny]

You could, after three months perhaps, but three weeks is not a lengthy wait at all for this sort of thing.

 

[Anonymouse123]

You could, after three months perhaps, but three weeks is not a lengthy wait at all for this sort of thing.

What if they send a letter out and it doesn’t reach me and they decide to go a harsher route if they don’t get a response?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2024 ==

How long do they usually take if anyone knows?

 

[Titfield]

What if they send a letter out and it doesn’t reach me and they decide to go a harsher route if they don’t get a response?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2024 ==

How long do they usually take if anyone knows?

It varies quite considerably based on what is reported on this forum.

If they take court action and you are convicted without you knowing then this can be undone by making a Statutory Declaration and the matter rescheduled to be put before a court. However you are getting way ahead of yourself. You will need to be patient whilst your case reaches the top of the pile at the TOC to be dealt with.

 

[Hadders]

There is nothing to be gained by reaching out to Northern. It could even be counterproductive.

Northern deal with hundreds of cases at any one time and these things do take time to resolve. As long as you gave your correct details then it's highly unlikely that the letter will go astray.

 

[Anonymouse123]

Happy new year everyone.

I have still not received a letter and it’s been 3 months. Shall i email them asking for an update?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Happy new year everyone.

I have still not received a letter and it’s been 3 months. Shall i email them asking for an update?

My advice would be to continue to wait: from what you told us in post #1 there's quite a lot that the railway will want to look at - and that could take them some time.

 

[scrapy]

Happy new year everyone.

I have still not received a letter and it’s been 3 months. Shall i email them asking for an update?

They've got six months, provided the address you gave is current and correct, I'd be tempted to wait. There's a chance your case has got lost I'm the system or they run out of time to prosecute. In which case your effectively in the clear. If you chase it you may find you get a letter sooner.

 

[Anonymouse123]

They've got six months, provided the address you gave is current and correct, I'd be tempted to wait. There's a chance your case has got lost I'm the system or they run out of time to prosecute. In which case your effectively in the clear. If you chase it you may find you get a letter sooner.

They have my correct address and details. How many letters do they send?

If it’s just 1 letter and it’s gotten lost, what if they prosecute me without my knowledge. If this goes to court with or without my knowledge i could lose everything.

Can they prosecute me after the 6 months is up?

I want this dealt with quickly as it’s affecting my mental health.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can they prosecute me after the 6 months is up?

No.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

They have my correct address and details. How many letters do they send?

If it’s just 1 letter and it’s gotten lost, what if they prosecute me without my knowledge. If this goes to court with or without my knowledge i could lose everything.

Before a prosecution goes ahead, you'd most likely get two letters
- one from the railway asking for your side of the story
- another one (probably from the court) telling you that you are being prosecuted

As you say you gave your correct name and address, both of these would have to go astray. So in practice then unless post to you has a habit of getting lost (which can happen with shared letterboxes, living somewhere particularly remote or having a vicious dog that the postie won't go past - there are no doubt other possible reasons) you would have to be incredibly unlucky for both of these letters not to show up.

Can they prosecute me after the 6 months is up?

The most likely answer to this is 'no', but there's a few points to be aware of:

- the six month limit applies to the usual (railway byelaw or Regulation of the Railways Act) charges. An approach which is open to the railway is to prosecute for fraud under the Fraud Act*. That doesn't have a time limit on when it can be taken to court. But realistically, I would say that we have not seen any fraud prosecutions being taken forward, so this may be a theoretical risk rather than a real one.
- the six month time limit is for the railway to notify the court that they want to prosecute you: it may then take a few weeks for the message to be passed on to you. So I tend to advise waiting seven or eight months before considering yourself to definitely be in the clear
- I should also mention that we have seen a few companies move straight to prosecution without giving you the chance to settle out of court first - although in those cases the letter of prosecution does offer a chance to settle out of court. Again, that having been said, I don't think that we have seen Northern# do this - and the companies which have done it seem to have tried to do it to avoid the risk of the case running out of time in court.

*For regular readers and contributors - this would likely be a public prosecution by the CPS after the case was referred by the railway to the police. But I don't think anything turns on this point, so I'm only mentioning it in this footnote rather than in the main text.
#I'm assuming Northern from OP's location in Greater Manchester and the reference in post #1 to DRPU in York.

 

[Anonymouse123]

Before a prosecution goes ahead, you'd most likely get two letters
- one from the railway asking for your side of the story
- another one (probably from the court) telling you that you are being prosecuted

As you say you gave your correct name and address, both of these would have to go astray. So in practice then unless post to you has a habit of getting lost (which can happen with shared letterboxes, living somewhere particularly remote or having a vicious dog that the postie won't go past - there are no doubt other possible reasons) you would have to be incredibly unlucky for both of these letters not to show up.


The most likely answer to this is 'no', but there's a few points to be aware of:

- the six month limit applies to the usual (railway byelaw or Regulation of the Railways Act) charges. An approach which is open to the railway is to prosecute for fraud under the Fraud Act*. That doesn't have a time limit on when it can be taken to court. But realistically, I would say that we have not seen any fraud prosecutions being taken forward, so this may be a theoretical risk rather than a real one.
- the six month time limit is for the railway to notify the court that they want to prosecute you: it may then take a few weeks for the message to be passed on to you. So I tend to advise waiting seven or eight months before considering yourself to definitely be in the clear
- I should also mention that we have seen a few companies move straight to prosecution without giving you the chance to settle out of court first - although in those cases the letter of prosecution does offer a chance to settle out of court. Again, that having been said, I don't think that we have seen Northern# do this - and the companies which have done it seem to have tried to do it to avoid the risk of the case running out of time in court.

*For regular readers and contributors - this would likely be a public prosecution by the CPS after the case was referred by the railway to the police. But I don't think anything turns on this point, so I'm only mentioning it in this footnote rather than in the main text.
#I'm assuming Northern from OP's location in Greater Manchester and the reference in post #1 to DRPU in York.

Thank you for your detailed response. Because i was short faring for a long time, would they be likely to prosecute me for fraud (if they run out of time for the railway act)?

If i’m taken to court for that and settle, that would still probably cause me to lose my job as i mentioned in my first post.

Wouldn’t it be best to get ahead of this now and ask for an update on my case via email, pay a settlement and put it behind me now?

Im happy to pay a settlement in full to fix my mistakes now so i don’t have to wait longer and risk a worse case(fraud prosecution) just to try to avoid paying anything at all by waiting the deadline out for the railway act if that makes sense.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you for your detailed response. Because i was short faring for a long time, would they be likely to prosecute me for fraud (if they run out of time for the railway act)?

If i’m taken to court for that and settle, that would still probably cause me to lose my job as i mentioned in my first post.

Wouldn’t it be best to get ahead of this now and ask for an update on my case via email, pay a settlement and put it behind me now?

Im happy to pay a settlement in full to fix my mistakes now so i don’t have to wait longer and risk a worse case(fraud prosecution) just to try to avoid paying anything at all by waiting the deadline out for the railway act if that makes sense.

Others will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but being able to settle out of court is not a matter of settling things quickly: from what I have seen on this forum, the test that the railway applies is to ask themselves what sanction will be enough to discourage fare dodgers from doing it again.

For someone who (as far as the railway can tell) has only ever fare dodged once, then an out of court settlement (of fare dodged plus maybe £150) is often enough to discourage them from ever fare dodging again. But on the basis of what you've told us, you have been doing this a few times a week for eight months or so. If a few times a week is twice, and each month has four weeks, that's 8 x 4 x 2 = 64 times, which is a lot more than once. And I can well imagine the railway deciding that someone who fare dodges that much may need a stiffer lesson than settling out of court. Typically, a court fine is more than an out of court settlement, and of course you will also have the consequences of a criminal conviction to deal with.

So I recommend waiting for the railway to contact you not because I think that there is a chance of 'running down the clock' and getting away without any sort of sanction, but because I think it will be better to allow them the chance to fully consider your position: from the railway's point of view if they are rushed into a decision then the temptation would be to be more severe in the knowledge that they could be less punitive later: as the alternative, if they offered you a settlement but then found there were more occasions that they hadn't thought about they would be hard pressed to escalate a settlement back to taking you to court.

 

[Anonymouse123]

Others will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, but being able to settle out of court is not a matter of settling things quickly: from what I have seen on this forum, the test that the railway applies is to ask themselves what sanction will be enough to discourage fare dodgers from doing it again.

For someone who (as far as the railway can tell) has only ever fare dodged once, then an out of court settlement (of fare dodged plus maybe £150) is often enough to discourage them from ever fare dodging again. But on the basis of what you've told us, you have been doing this a few times a week for eight months or so. If a few times a week is twice, and each month has four weeks, that's 8 x 4 x 2 = 64 times, which is a lot more than once. And I can well imagine the railway deciding that someone who fare dodges that much may need a stiffer lesson than settling out of court. Typically, a court fine is more than an out of court settlement, and of course you will also have the consequences of a criminal conviction to deal with.

So I recommend waiting for the railway to contact you not because I think that there is a chance of 'running down the clock' and getting away without any sort of sanction, but because I think it will be better to allow them the chance to fully consider your position: from the railway's point of view if they are rushed into a decision then the temptation would be to be more severe in the knowledge that they could be less punitive later: as the alternative, if they offered you a settlement but then found there were more occasions that they hadn't thought about they would be hard pressed to escalate a settlement back to taking you to court.

Ok that makes a lot of sense. But if the 6 months passes wouldn’t they have to go for a fraud conviction since the railway act deadline has passed?

E.g. if they send me a letter before the 6 months is up, there is a chance of paying northern a settlement amount.

Whereas if the 6 months has passed, their only course of action is to go for a fraud conviction.

Based on the amount of times i have short fared, i’m not sure they will just leave me be if the 6 months is up.

Sorry for all the questions. This is really affecting me mentally for the past 3 months.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Ok that makes a lot of sense. But if the 6 months passes wouldn’t they have to go for a fraud conviction since the railway act deadline has passed?

E.g. if they send me a letter before the 6 months is up, there is a chance of paying northern a settlement amount.

Whereas if the 6 months has passed, their only course of action is to go for a fraud conviction.

Based on the amount of times i have short fared, i’m not sure they will just leave me be if the 6 months is up.

Sorry for all the questions. This is really affecting me mentally for the past 3 months.

You are, essentially, right. On the basis of what we've seen, we can tell you what we think is likely to happen - but we can't guarantee it.

So it's likely that once six months (plus time for late notification from the court) have passed, if you haven't heard anything then you won't hear anything. And if you hear before six months have passed then there's a chance that the railway will offer you an out of court settlement. But that's my best guess and I could be wrong.