Ups and Downs

[6Gman]

....which maybe underlines the point that swapping Up and Down designations is an expensive pastime, however illogical some designations now are. The permanent way enjoys a permanent sense of direction it seems!

Up and Down are so ingrained in the minds of many railway staff that a change could even have safety implications.

 

[The exile]

Ever since it was re-quadrified, I’ve always meant to check whether Filton Bank has up and down in opposite directions for the two pairs of tracks. Logically, looking from the bottom of the bank and going left to right, it should be down S Wales, up S Wales, up Badminton, down Badminton - but what has logic got to do with it?

 

[edwin_m]

Ever since it was re-quadrified, I’ve always meant to check whether Filton Bank has up and down in opposite directions for the two pairs of tracks. Logically, looking from the bottom of the bank and going left to right, it should be down S Wales, up S Wales, up Badminton, down Badminton - but what has logic got to do with it?

I'd be very surprised. Having different designations on adjacent tracks would be a safety issue for drivers and track workers. Having said that, I seem to recall that when Standish Junction to Cheltenham was four track, the GWR and Midland pairs had opposite designations.

 

[Rescars]

I'd be very surprised. Having different designations on adjacent tracks would be a safety issue for drivers and track workers. Having said that, I seem to recall that when Standish Junction to Cheltenham was four track, the GWR and Midland pairs had opposite designations.

Am I right that up Waterloo and up Paddington trains at Exeter St Davids depart in opposite directions?

 

[The exile]

Am I right that up Waterloo and up Paddington trains at Exeter St Davids depart in opposite directions?

They do indeed, but not on parallel tracks!

 

[jfollows]

Ever since it was re-quadrified, I’ve always meant to check whether Filton Bank has up and down in opposite directions for the two pairs of tracks. Logically, looking from the bottom of the bank and going left to right, it should be down S Wales, up S Wales, up Badminton, down Badminton - but what has logic got to do with it?

Up towards Filton on both Filton Main and Filton Relief lines, I’m afraid, because I get what you mean!

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20Appendix%20full%20PDFs%20June%202025/Western%20&%20Wales%20Sectional%20Appendix%20June%202025.pdf

Up Filton Relief becomes Up Bristol towards Patchway after Filton.

 

[The exile]

Up towards Filton on both Filton Main and Filton Relief lines, I’m afraid, because I get what you mean!

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20Appendix%20full%20PDFs%20June%202025/Western%20&%20Wales%20Sectional%20Appendix%20June%202025.pdf

Up Filton Relief becomes Up Bristol towards Patchway after Filton.

Interesting - presumably swapped at some point because before the Badminton cut-off ascending the bank would presumably have (if illogically) been “down” (London - Cardiff via the Rhubarb Curve)

 

[jfollows]

Up Bristol joins Down Tunnel at Patchway Junction.

 

[edwin_m]

They do indeed, but not on parallel tracks!

And when the "Up" Waterloo trains depart from the platforms at St Davids they are actually running in the Down direction. According to an old Quail map (but it's unlikely to have changed) the designations change at St Davids Junction which is just off the end of the platforms where they diverge towards Central. There is another change at Cowley Bridge Junction, with Barnstaple and Okehampton lines retaining the LSWR Up/Down designations.

 

[norbitonflyer]

with Barnstaple and Okehampton lines retaining the LBSC Up/Down designations.

LSWR, surely!

 

[edwin_m]

LSWR, surely!

Apologies, been a long day...

 

[Mr. SW]

All lines lead to Camden Road where up and down swap over. I haven't seen any little sign or post to mark the position but I suspect it would have originally been in front of the former signal box, so just off the west end of the platforms.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Wouldn't joining the GCML from a place such a Banbury be quite confusing for a driver , having their ups and downs switch mid route if they were running a service from other parts of the network
If the Ups and Downs were switched?

Trains switch between Up and Down now on Southern:
Watford Junction to East Croydon switch at Falcon Junction
Southampton to Brighton switch at Cosham Junction
Ashford to Eastbourne switch at Hastings

And SouthEastern between Shortlands and Swanley, the slow trains use the Fast lines, and the fast trains use the Slow lines!

 

[The exile]

Trains switch between Up and Down now on Southern:
Watford Junction to East Croydon switch at Falcon Junction
Southampton to Brighton switch at Cosham Junction
Ashford to Eastbourne switch at Hastings

And SouthEastern between Shortlands and Swanley, the slow trains use the Fast lines, and the fast trains use the Slow lines!

It’s going to happen at many junctions…

 

[edwin_m]

It’s going to happen a many junctions…

Including every single triangle.

Can anyone find places where Up and Down swap on plain line, probably because there was a junction once but the diverging route has closed? There are certainly plenty of mileage discontinuities for this reason, but I can't offhand think of any Up/Down swaps.

 

[Rescars]

Including every single triangle.

How is it determined which line is Up and which line is Down on the third side of the triangle - assuming both the other sides are designated with the Up line heading towards London (however convoluted the route may now be)?

 

[edwin_m]

How is it determined which line is Up and which line is Down on the third side of the triangle - assuming both the other sides are designated with the Up line heading towards London (however convoluted the route may now be)?

It's pretty arbitrary, but I'd guess the one that is considered the main line would most likely have continuity of Up and Down.

One exception I know of is at Dore, where Down is continuous from Chesterfield round the south curve and indeed all the way to Manchester. The mileage runs similarly until Chinley when the shorter mileage via Bakewell supersedes it. Trains between the Hope Valley and Sheffield (always the primary route for Hope Valley trains as it is now) swap designations at Dore Station Junction, which is also the zero for the curve to Dore West. The mileages follow the Midland practice discussed upthread, and Down is the direction of increasing mileage.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

All lines lead to Camden Road where up and down swap over. I haven't seen any little sign or post to mark the position but I suspect it would have originally been in front of the former signal box, so just off the west end of the platforms.

Looks to be the exact point where the track passing through Camden Road station splits, with one continuing to Primrose Hill and beyond, and the other to Kentish Town West, Gospel Oak and beyond.

Or where the tracks join, if travelling in the other direction.

 

[IanXC]

Officially 0m66ch, which is just St Pancras side of Farringdon.

However the signalling, asset and maintenance boundaries vary. For example Three Bridges ROC signals up to Kentish Town, whilst Bedford depot maintains the OLE south through to City TL (which is controlled by Derby Electrical Control Room)

I know it was the case that Three Bridges signalled up to Kentish Town, however once the decision was taken that West Hampstead was a long term signalling location, St Pancras high level was transferred to WH and that presumably means Kentish Town is now controlled from there too?

 

[thesignalman]

The GCR (which had its HQ at Manchester London Road before the London Extension opened) was entirely consistent- Up was from Manchester towards Sheffield, and then onward to London. However, it did not change the designation for trains which didn't go up the Extension- if you turned left at Woodhouse, the Up direction from Sheffield Victoria carried on through Retford, Barnetby and Grimsby to Cleethorpes. Remarkably, today it is still Up to Cleethorpes, nearly sixty years after the Extension closed.

Hello,

You are absolutely right in what you say but I think your reasoning is incorrect. The Great Central Railway and its London extension evolved from the Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway. The MS&L had no lines pointing to London so they chose to apply the Down direction from Cleethorpes westwards. If their headquarters was at Manchester it is rather surprising they didn't do the reverse. The London extension simply superimposed itself onto the MS&L's network and it was convenient that things worked out as they did.

Best regards,

John

 

[Bald Rick]

I know it was the case that Three Bridges signalled up to Kentish Town, however once the decision was taken that West Hampstead was a long term signalling location, St Pancras high level was transferred to WH and that presumably means Kentish Town is now controlled from there too?

I forget exactly which signals are the boundary, but TBROC controls the Moorgates to just London side of Kentish Town - essentially all the ETCS area and the transition to/from.

 

[Mr. SW]

I have a feeling that the original Waverley Route was Up to Edinburgh, i.e. away from London. This was probably a legacy of Hawick being the original destination.

 

[Bevan Price]

And when the "Up" Waterloo trains depart from the platforms at St Davids they are actually running in the Down direction. According to an old Quail map (but it's unlikely to have changed) the designations change at St Davids Junction which is just off the end of the platforms where they diverge towards Central. There is another change at Cowley Bridge Junction, with Barnstaple and Okehampton lines retaining the LSWR Up/Down designations.

And if you look at the Quail trackmaps, there is a mileage anomaly at Exeter.
Cowley Bridge Jn - GWR mileage 192m 52c
St. David's Jn - 194m 00c.
Distance 1m 28c

St. Davids Jn - SR/LSWR mileage 172m 04c
Cowley Bridge Jn 173m 50c
Distance 1m 46c

So which - if either - is correct?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

And if you look at the Quail trackmaps, there is a mileage anomaly at Exeter.
Cowley Bridge Jn - GWR mileage 192m 52c
St. David's Jn - 194m 00c.
Distance 1m 28c

St. Davids Jn - SR/LSWR mileage 172m 04c
Cowley Bridge Jn 173m 50c
Distance 1m 46c

So which - if either - is correct?

It is the same in the current (2024) sectional appendix. As a GWR line their mileposts, unsurprisingly, look to be correct to the actual distance but the LSWR ones seem to have gone awry. The LSWR did ease the curve in 1875 at Cowley Bridge - there had been several derailments - when they rebuilt the bridges over the rivers and doubled the line - surely it doesn't go back to then?

 

[LickeyIncliner]

I have a feeling that the original Waverley Route was Up to Edinburgh, i.e. away from London. This was probably a legacy of Hawick being the original destination.

That's correct. The Middleton Press book on Galashiels to Edinburgh (Darsley & Lovett in the "Scottish Main Lines" series) reproduces an 1850 timetable in which the Hawick-Edinburgh direction is clearly labelled "Up". The authors say that after the opening from Hawick to Carlist, the up and down lines where changed over.

 

[edwin_m]

It is the same in the current (2024) sectional appendix. As a GWR line their mileposts, unsurprisingly, look to be correct to the actual distance but the LSWR ones seem to have gone awry. The LSWR did ease the curve in 1875 at Cowley Bridge - there had been several derailments - when they rebuilt the bridges over the rivers and doubled the line - surely it doesn't go back to then?

I can't see any realignment on railmaponline or any of the NLS maps to measure it, and there isn't any trace of an old route on the current OS 1:25000 mapping, so I have no way of telling if they differed by 18 chains.

However, if they did, then it's very unlikely the LSWR would have re-miled everything west of there. It would just join the long list of mileage anomalies - they also managed somehow to lose 12chains between St Denys and Southampton (BML1 77mi68ch is BML2 milepost 78).

 

[Dr_Paul]

I wonder if it’s an analogy with going “up” to University (and being “sent down”). This of course meant that for Londoners studying elsewhere you would go “up” on the “down” train.

Do people still talk about going 'up to university'? In my seven years as a student (1991-94, 1997-2001) and then five working in higher education, all in the University of London, I never heard anyone say that. Perhaps they do in respect of Oxford or Cambridge, but then they're different.

Are the terms 'up' and 'down' used for services that don't go to London; say, Bristol to Newcastle, Stanstead to Birmingham, or Manchester to Cardiff?

 

[jfollows]

They all seem to talk about “going to uni” these days, I never said other than “university” when I went (1980-84) and I dislike the contraction but am resigned to it. I never said I went up to Oxford although I was definitely sent down after a year.

 

[edwin_m]

Do people still talk about going 'up to university'? In my seven years as a student (1991-94, 1997-2001) and then five working in higher education, all in the University of London, I never heard anyone say that. Perhaps they do in respect of Oxford or Cambridge, but then they're different.

Are the terms 'up' and 'down' used for services that don't go to London; say, Bristol to Newcastle, Stanstead to Birmingham, or Manchester to Cardiff?

Probably not, because most longish distance non-London services will flip between Up and Down at least once. For Bristol to Newcastle it's at Derby, don't know offhand for the others.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I can't see any realignment on railmaponline or any of the NLS maps to measure it, and there isn't any trace of an old route on the current OS 1:25000 mapping, so I have no way of telling if they differed by 18 chains.

However, if they did, then it's very unlikely the LSWR would have re-miled everything west of there. It would just join the long list of mileage anomalies - they also managed somehow to lose 12chains between St Denys and Southampton (BML1 77mi68ch is BML2 milepost 78).

Yes, it looks like the LSWR milepost mileage shown at Cowley Bridge Jcn. has been counted back from the pre-1875 mileage to the west. As you say there are no suitable NLS maps to check - the area has changed a lot with the shifting rivers. The curve was realigned again in the 1960s when the bridges were rebuilt for single track.