Ups and Downs

[Rescars]

Most of us are familiar with the use of the terms "up" and "down" to indicate the direction of travel, with up trains on up lines moving towards the London and down trains on down lines moving the other way. As we commemorate two centuries of passenger rail travel, does anyone know when the designations "up" and "down" were first used by the railways? Has this terminology been around for two hundred years or is it more recent?

AIUI, pre-grouping, some companies with no connection to London used to run up to the principal town or city on their system. Thus the L&Y used to run up to Manchester and the NER up to York. But after the grouping the lines of all of the Big Four ran up to London. Did this mean that, for example, the NER lines south of York would have been redesignated so that the old NER "up" line became the LNER "down" line and vice versa? If so, does anyone know when this redesignation happened and how long it took to complete?

Similarly, when London Underground took over the operation of certain routes, or parts of routes, from the national network, how long did it take to redesignate from ""up" and "down" to "eastbound", "southbound" or whatever?

All thoughts most welcome.

 

[stuving]

"Up" and "down" meaning to and from London were in use for stagecoaches before the railways started. I found a clear example in 1780 referring to coaches between Holyhead and London via Birmingham. This labelling was then applied to trains from the mid-1830s, which is hardly surprising.

So when did this usage get applied to "the up line" (and down too)? In the newspapers, it's 1839 - I see several that year, none earlier. No doubt it was present a bit earlier within the railways, if not known to outsiders.

That leaves the question of when it became general, and was used on lines that did not obviously go to or from London. The newspapers probably won't help with that.

 

[The exile]

I wonder if it’s an analogy with going “up” to University (and being “sent down”). This of course meant that for Londoners studying elsewhere you would go “up” on the “down” train.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

'Up' is usually towards the Zero milepost. Mostly these are in London, and it has long been the convention to speak of going 'Up to London'.
Pat

 

[PeterY]

'Up' is usually towards the Zero milepost. Mostly these are in London, and it has long been the convention to speak of going 'Up to London'.
Pat

There's always an oddity in that milage to Marylebone ,is the opposite with the milage going up towards the terminal at 207 miles.

It'd be interesting to know whereabouts the Elizabeth line and Thameslink core change from up to down ?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It'd be interesting to know whereabouts the Elizabeth line and Thameslink core change from up to down ?

I would say on the Thameslink core, the up/down change point is just beyond Farringdon station, where the AC/DC changeover is.

 

[stuving]

Here's one of the 1839 examples I found - from The Examiner; 17 November 1839:

 

[zwk500]

I would say on the Thameslink core, the up/down change point is just beyond Farringdon station, where the AC/DC changeover is.

The AC/DC changeover is not really at a specific place. The Up/Down change point is the former jn at the end of the platforms (now within the platform extensions), as the lines were Down from Moorgate towards the MML, and then Down from Farringdon Jn to Blackfriars.

There's always an oddity in that milage to Marylebone ,is the opposite with the milage going up towards the terminal at 207 miles.

The GC's headquarters was Manchester Central, I think.

It'd be interesting to know whereabouts the Elizabeth line and Thameslink core change from up to down ?

Crossrail has a new Datum point slightly west of the buffers at Westbourne Park reversing sidings. Crossrail's TPRs appear to refer to the lines as Eastbound and Westbound not Up and Down, so the changeover points will be at the NR/TfL boundaries.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The AC/DC changeover is not really at a specific place. The Up/Down change point is the former jn at the end of the platforms (now within the platform extensions), as the lines were Down from Moorgate towards the MML, and then Down from Farringdon Jn to Blackfriars.

So, where is (or was) the Eastern/Southern regional boundary? Has to be somewhere around there if that was (or still is) the Up/Down change point, rather than the AC/DC changeover point.

 

[hermit]

I recall seeing many years ago a ‘puzzle picture’ in an old (1950s) railway magazine. It showed a steam loco with a large circular sign covering the smoke box, bearing the words ‘UP DOWN’.

What it meant was indeed puzzling, until it was revealed that it was heading a train carrying sports fans from County Down into Belfast for a big match.

 

[Bald Rick]

So, where is (or was) the Eastern/Southern regional boundary?

Officially 0m66ch, which is just St Pancras side of Farringdon.

However the signalling, asset and maintenance boundaries vary. For example Three Bridges ROC signals up to Kentish Town, whilst Bedford depot maintains the OLE south through to City TL (which is controlled by Derby Electrical Control Room)

 

[satisnek]

There's always an oddity in that milage to Marylebone ,is the opposite with the milage going up towards the terminal at 207 miles.

I've never been sure about what's 'Up' and 'Down' on the Great Central London Extension. The Midland Main Line is, as far as I know, conventional despite it being similarly constructed towards London.

 

[sad1e]

I've never been sure about what's 'Up' and 'Down' on the Great Central London Extension. The Midland Main Line is, as far as I know, conventional despite it being similarly constructed towards London.

I would assume the great central would follow the normal Convention of up and down , all the track diagrams and sectional Appendixes I've viewed have the lines out of Marylebone marked as you would assume.

Wouldn't joining the GCML from a place such a Banbury be quite confusing for a driver , having their ups and downs switch mid route if they were running a service from other parts of the network
If the Ups and Downs were switched?

It may very well have been different in the pre grouping days though, I know the Great Central liked to do things their own way.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I've never been sure about what's 'Up' and 'Down' on the Great Central London Extension. The Midland Main Line is, as far as I know, conventional despite it being similarly constructed towards London.

It was curious that the Midland Railway treated towards London as being Up as generally their Up was towards Derby (e.g.. the Bristol route). As the Midland 'London' route had a number of iterations (via Hampton, via Rugby and via Hitchin before St. Pancras) the all-Midland route must have been re-measured, presumably all the way North.

'Up' is usually towards the Zero milepost. Mostly these are in London, and it has long been the convention to speak of going 'Up to London'.
Pat

Bear in mind, though, that there are zero mileposts (i.e., the mileage count restarted) at points en route on trunk routes, dating back to when that through route was built up by joining independent companies.

//

One suggestion about the origin of 'up' and 'down' was that early timetables (for road travel, to start with) had a vertical list of places served, with times to the left and right. In the case of the outward journey one read the timings to the left and read down, and for the return, one read the times to the right, and read up. One might expect such tables to have London at the top, hence 'up to London'. But might all be a myth.

 

[contrex]

I wonder if it’s an analogy with going “up” to University (and being “sent down”). This of course meant that for Londoners studying elsewhere you would go “up” on the “down” train.

I had always been puzzled by Doctor Spooner's alleged utterance to a New College, Oxford student he was expelling, namely 'Sir, you will leave by the town drain' (i.e. 'down train'. Why down? Did he know the student came from somewhere like Banbury?). Then I read about the Doctor and discovered that the vast majority of the Spoonerisms attributed to him were probably made up by others. I do wonder if 'up' and 'down' directions had/have a special Oxbridge meaning (towards/away from the university) which trumped the railway ones.

 

[Wandering Pom]

I do wonder if 'up' and 'down' directions had/have a special Oxbridge meaning (towards/away from the university) which trumped the railway ones.

Yes, this is exactly the situation, e.g. students "come up" to university at the start of term, and "go down" at the end. And yes, there is a definite irony that many students "come up" on down trains from London, and vice versa.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

It was curious that the Midland Railway treated towards London as being Up as generally their Up was towards Derby (e.g.. the Bristol route). As the Midland 'London' route had a number of iterations (via Hampton, via Rugby and via Hitchin before St. Pancras) the all-Midland route must have been re-measured, presumably all the way North.




Bear in mind, though, that there are zero mileposts (i.e., the mileage count restarted) at points en route on trunk routes, dating back to when that through route was built up by joining independent companies.

//

One suggestion about the origin of 'up' and 'down' was that early timetables (for road travel, to start with) had a vertical list of places served, with times to the left and right. In the case of the outward journey one read the timings to the left and read down, and for the return, one read the times to the right, and read up. One might expect such tables to have London at the top, hence 'up to London'. But might all be a myth.

The Midland Railway comprehensively re-did their mileages in the Edwardian period, with St. Pancras as milepost zero - and they produced a splendid set of map books in the process, which have been reprinted. Bristol to Derby was 'Up' because that was the Midland way to London (if somewhat indirect!) - this has led to the myth that Derby was 'Up'.

 

[contrex]

Yes, this is exactly the situation, e.g. students "come up" to university at the start of term, and "go down" at the end. And yes, there is a definite irony that many students "come up" on down trains from London, and vice versa.

Yes, I knew about 'going up' and 'going down'; I was specifically wondering if Oxbridge folk talk/talked about trains in that way (e.g. an Oxford - Paddington train would be a 'down train' to them). They didn't have any of that malarky at Bristol Poly.

So are we saying that Spooner's alleged remark could be parsed as 'the next train away from Oxford in either direction'? I do not think that a professor had any power to expel a student from the town itself. In any case I don't believe he ever said it.

 

[John Webb]

The Midland Railway comprehensively re-did their mileages in the Edwardian period, with St. Pancras as milepost zero - and they produced a splendid set of map books in the process, which have been reprinted. Bristol to Derby was 'Up' because that was the Midland way to London (if somewhat indirect!) - this has led to the myth that Derby was 'Up'.

I beg to differ a little on this matter, from looking at the history of the 'London Extension' built from Bedford to St Pancras and opened in 1868. It is from this time onwards that the Midland Railway (MR) reset at least the present 'Midland Main Line' to be 'Zero' from London to Derby and northwards.

But other branches of the MR, including the one from Bristol, still retained Derby, the MR HQ, as their zero point, or so the 1923 diagram implies as reproduced in "The Midland Railway - A Chronology" by John Gough (1989, the Railway and Canal Historical Society).
The Dudding Hill/Acton branch was measured from the Brent No. 2 Junction box, not St Pancras, as another example.

 

[Rescars]

Many thanks all for your fascinating responses so far.

I am intrigued by the Midland resetting it's zero milage point from London. Did this resetting also involve redesignating up and down directions? What would hve been the benefits? The costs involved would have been considerable; not just having to change rafts of printed materials but all sorts of other things as well. Relabelling block and other instruments, signalling diagrams and numerous levers in every box on the route are obvious examples. And then there would have been the costs of training all relevant staff about the changes as well. Not an exercise to be undertaken lightly I suggest.

 

[Helvellyn]

Does the Midland Mainline still have a mile post zero since it was moved outside the main train shed?

 

[Tester]

Up and down extend further than you might think!

The Kowloon-Canton Railway (British Section) as was, which is the line in Hong Kong to the Chinese border, is up to London (as indeed you could arrive at if you kept going (ignoring gauges).

Now part of Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway, it's still up to London.

 

[edwin_m]

It was curious that the Midland Railway treated towards London as being Up as generally their Up was towards Derby (e.g.. the Bristol route). As the Midland 'London' route had a number of iterations (via Hampton, via Rugby and via Hitchin before St. Pancras) the all-Midland route must have been re-measured, presumably all the way North.

I beg to differ a little on this matter, from looking at the history of the 'London Extension' built from Bedford to St Pancras and opened in 1868. It is from this time onwards that the Midland Railway (MR) reset at least the present 'Midland Main Line' to be 'Zero' from London to Derby and northwards.

But other branches of the MR, including the one from Bristol, still retained Derby, the MR HQ, as their zero point, or so the 1923 diagram implies as reproduced in "The Midland Railway - A Chronology" by John Gough (1989, the Railway and Canal Historical Society).
The Dudding Hill/Acton branch was measured from the Brent No. 2 Junction box, not St Pancras, as another example.

During the re-miling the Midland adopted the convention that mileages would start from London by the shortest route at the time. If a junction was encountered that was facing when travelling from London by this route, then the mileages were continuous on both diverging routes. If a trailing junction was encountered then the mileage on the diverging route started from a zero milepost at the junction and increased going away from it. Probably the biggest example was at Derby London Road Junction, where the line from Bristol and Bath trailed in and therefore had its own zero milepost (still there as far as I know). This probably gives rise to the myth that the Midland measured its mileages from a zero at Derby, clearly disproved by the zero at St Pancras.

I don't know for certain why it is Down from Derby to Bristol, especially as the first part of this route was also the Midland's first route towards London so may have been Up at the time. Possibly something to do with the original route towards Nottingham and Leicester leaving northwards via what is now Chaddesden Sidings.

Many thanks all for your fascinating responses so far.

I am intrigued by the Midland resetting it's zero milage point from London. Did this resetting also involve redesignating up and down directions? What would hve been the benefits? The costs involved would have been considerable; not just having to change rafts of printed materials but all sorts of other things as well. Relabelling block and other instruments, signalling diagrams and numerous levers in every box on the route are obvious examples. And then there would have been the costs of training all relevant staff about the changes as well. Not an exercise to be undertaken lightly I suggest.

A detailed article on the Midland's mileposts can be found at https://midlandrailwaysociety.org.uk/midland-railway-mileposts/. The first paragraph suggests that the zero for mileage on the various partial routes towards London was originally at wherever that route got nearest to London.

The Midland Railway’s nineteenth-century practice was no different from that of other companies. Each line had its own zero-point and its own sequence of mileposts. These are shewn clearly on the first-edition 25″ Ordnance Survey sheets. Their sequences can also be found on the Midland’s 1874 gradient diagrams. Thus mileposts ran from Hitchin to Wigston North Junction, from Rugby to Derby, from Derby to Leeds, from Birmingham to Gloucester, from Bristol to Gloucester, and so on. I know of only one survival of this old mileposting. The zero-point for the Manchester line was at Ambergate, and the sequence of posts ran through to Ashburys East Junction at 46 miles 24 chains. By the time the new mileposts were installed the maintenance responsibilities on the Sheffield & Midland joint line had changed and the Midland no longer looked after the section north of Reddish Junction, with the result that the last “modern” Midland milepost is MP181 at Reddish Junction, after which the posts still follow the old measurement reading from Ambergate because neither the Great Central company nor its successors ever made any changes thence to Ashburys.

Early this century the Midland carried out a systematic re-mileposting of the whole of its system. I am not sure of the precise date of the decision, and I have not myself seen any minute authorising the work. I believe, however, from the evidence of the Distance Diagrams that the task was carried out during 1907. From the first appearance of the diagrams in 1873 up to and including those sheets issued anew in January 1907 the note at the foot of the page about the continuous distances reads: “The continuous Distances are from St Pancras Passenger Station by the Shortest Route.” The new editions issued in January 1908 not only shew additional distance information relating to the mileposts but also change this note by the addition of a second line. The first line is a slightly modified version of the original, reading: “The continuous Distances not in brackets are from St Pancras Passenger Station by the Shortest Route.” The new second line states: “The continuous Distances in brackets represent the Mile Post Mileage (New)” [no full-stop]. This is the formulation used up to and including sheets issued in January 1913, after which the “(New)” is dropped. Certain sheets, such as those for the West Line, have slightly different formulations for the milepost sentence, to make the situation as clear as possible. Thus, for example, the 1912 issue (fifth edition) of sheet 49 has: “The continuous Distances in Brackets are from London Road Junction, Derby, via Whitacre, Camp Hill, & Redditch, and represent the Mile Post Mileage (New).”

I'm not aware of any other company doing wholesale changes to its mileages. It would have involved updating many drawings and records as well as operating information and of course the mileposts themselves. Reversing Up and Down would have had similar consequences and was probably also pretty unusual.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes, this is exactly the situation, e.g. students "come up" to university at the start of term, and "go down" at the end. And yes, there is a definite irony that many students "come up" on down trains from London, and vice versa.

Cambridge University (and the other place) existed long before the railway. When the railway came to Cambridge in 1845 Peterhouse, Clare and the predecessors of Trinity colleges were already more than 500 years old.

The most extreme use of this line of language at Cambridge is that being "sent down" means expulsion from a college.

 

[Tester]

I'm not aware of any other company doing wholesale changes to its mileages. It would have involved updating many drawings and records as well as operating information and of course the mileposts themselves. Reversing Up and Down would have had similar consequences and was probably also pretty unusual.

London Underground of course did exactly that!

 

[Rescars]

Up and down extend further than you might think!

The Kowloon-Canton Railway (British Section) as was, which is the line in Hong Kong to the Chinese border, is up to London (as indeed you could arrive at if you kept going (ignoring gauges).

Now part of Hong Kong's Mass Transit Railway, it's still up to London.

That's "global reach" for real!

 

[Falcon1200]

having their ups and downs switch mid route if they were running a service from other parts of the network
If the Ups and Downs were switched?

That kind of thing already happens! For example, a train from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh via Shotts is on the Up line from Central to Midcalder Jc, the Down line from there to Haymarket East Jc, then back on the Up from there into Edinburgh. No doubt there are plenty of other examples.

 

[contrex]

Cambridge University (and the other place) existed long before the railway.

When Chaucer wrote about a clerk of Oxenford, the GWR was very much in its infancy, I should think.

 

[4069]

The GCR (which had its HQ at Manchester London Road before the London Extension opened) was entirely consistent- Up was from Manchester towards Sheffield, and then onward to London. However, it did not change the designation for trains which didn't go up the Extension- if you turned left at Woodhouse, the Up direction from Sheffield Victoria carried on through Retford, Barnetby and Grimsby to Cleethorpes. Remarkably, today it is still Up to Cleethorpes, nearly sixty years after the Extension closed.

 

[Rescars]

The GCR (which had its HQ at Manchester London Road before the London Extension opened) was entirely consistent- Up was from Manchester towards Sheffield, and then onward to London. However, it did not change the designation for trains which didn't go up the Extension- if you turned left at Woodhouse, the Up direction from Sheffield Victoria carried on through Retford, Barnetby and Grimsby to Cleethorpes. Remarkably, today it is still Up to Cleethorpes, nearly sixty years after the Extension closed.

....which maybe underlines the point that swapping Up and Down designations is an expensive pastime, however illogical some designations now are. The permanent way enjoys a permanent sense of direction it seems!