Upgrading Standard Advance to First Advance

[Starmill]

Hello all, thoughts on this much appreciated please.

In November I changed a Standard Class Advance ticket to a First Class one (on the same train) that was for Virgin Trains East Coast. I was surprised to be charged a £10 admin fee.

I made 4 exchanges with their customer relations (who sent me incorrect information or didn't understand the question) and, after surrendering my original and new tickets to them by post I was told that I had received a final response at 4th exchange and no refund would be made. I then referred the case to Transport Focus, which is my 5th attempt at resolving the matter (and takes quite some time to send them all the details).

Their response is below:

Dear Mr Starmill,

Thank you for your webform regarding your complaint with Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC). I’m sorry to hear of the £10 administration fee applied to your booking, which you feel was incurred incorrectly. I can certainly appreciate why you would wish to seek clarification for this.

I have reviewed the terms and conditions of Advance tickets both on VTEC’s website and also on the National Fares Manual (which is an industry-based guide to all rail fares and the rules applied to each of these). Having now done this, I can confirm that VTEC are able to charge a £10 administration fee for any changes made to tickets. I have attached a screenshot, where VTEC provide this information. This will apply to changes made online, prior to travel. You will also be charged for any differences in cost. The only exception to this would be if you decide to upgrade your ticket from Standard Class to First Class whilst already on-board the train – then you will only be required to pay for the difference in cost. This is also confirmed by the National Fares Manual.

Regrettably, as the £10 administration fee has been correctly applied – as stated in VTEC’s response of 21 December – we would not be in a position to instruct that they refund this amount.

I’m sorry this may not be the answer you are looking for but trust this will clarify the administration fees applicable to ticket changes.

Thank you for taking the time to contact Transport Focus.

Kind regards




Senior Passenger Team Advisor

Does anyone have any thoughts on taking the matter further vs giving up?

National Rail Enquiries seems unambiguous that the fee is not due:

Advance Single - As long as you are on the train shown on your ticket, simply pay the difference between your ticket and the First Class Single(plus £10 on CrossCountry services only).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx

I know that Northern and Virgin Trains East Coast ticket offices have been known to issue this excess without levying a £10 admin fee (on non-XC Advances) - were they wrong?

Thanks

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Transport Focus and VTEC are, as far as I can see, wrong. Question 11 of the Advance Tickets FAQs section of the staff manual (a copy is available on this website) says that no fee is applicable when staying on the same train.

....2) Where the customer joins the correct train and wishes to upgrade to First Class on board, or wishes to
upgrade at a station beforehand between Standard and First Class on the correct train on which their
Advance ticket has been reserved, this is not classed as a change of travel plans.
Weekdays: All TOCs allow upgrade to First Class in the above circumstances. As with other ticket types,
charge the difference between the fare already paid and the appropriate First Single (dedicated or interavailable)
fare for the journey. No £10 fee should be charged for doing this (except on XC trains)....

 

[dave4jackie]

don't forget that if you upgrade on the train it will probably cost you more as you won't be upgrading to first advance only the first single price

 

[crehld]

Don't give up. I think it is worth you replying asking them to double check what the fares manual they refer to actually says as you've received seemingly contradictory information (i.e. they say the £10 is due, but an objective reading of the same policies suggests its not). Start by thanking them for taking the time to look into the matter but, for the sake of clarity, politely request they directly point out and quote the section of the manual which appears to justify the £10 charge in your case. You might enclose a copy of the Advance Tickets FAQs on iKB, obtained either from this website or a friendly ticket office, to assist them. Draw attention to the passage highlighted by hairyhandedfool, and ask that in light of this information they'll reconsider and take the case up with VTEC in the appropriate manner.
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Oh, and keep the reply short and concise!

 

[Starmill]

I didn't upgrade on the train. That's just what TF have said. I upgraded online, to 1ST Advance.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I didn't upgrade on the train. That's just what TF have said. I upgraded online, to 1ST Advance.

Which company did you purchase the ticket from?

 

[Starmill]

Which company did you purchase the ticket from?

Virgin Trains East Coast

 

[yorkie]

The Plymouth-based customer relations people are not the brightest sparks, I think they work for Serco (or someone like that) so I wouldn't expect them to know something like this. It would have to be investigated by someone knowledgeable for there to be any chance of a resolution. I'll see if I can persuade them to do that...

As for Passenger Focus, they're not knowledgeable either, so they're no use for stuff like this. You can try complaining about them but I know people who have done that and it just gets you nowhere.

 

[dave4jackie]

I can't see what the problem is you upgraded to first advance paid the difference plus £10 as stated so all is correct, where was you going from and to

 

[221129]

I can't see what the problem is you upgraded to first advance paid the difference plus £10 as stated so all is correct, where was you going from and to

That is incorrect. He should not have been charged the £10

 

[yorkie]

I can't see what the problem is you upgraded to first advance paid the difference plus £10 as stated so all is correct, where was you going from and to

That's not correct.

From the Advance Fare FAQs (a copy of which can be downloaded from our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide section 1.1.3 Advance tickets):

Where the customer joins the correct train and wishes to upgrade to First Class on board, or wishes to upgrade at a station beforehand between Standard and First Class on the correct train on which their Advance ticket has been reserved, this is not classed as a change of travel plans....

....No £10 fee should be charged for doing this (except on XC trains)

(my emphasis)

However I am aware that the level of knowledge of the Plymouth-based agency staff is far too low to be aware of the Advance FAQs, so I wouldn't expect them to know the correct information.

Knowledgeable staff at York will, of course, be fully aware of the correct information.

However getting the York-based staff (who work for VTEC) to look at a case can be quite challenging, so you often end up going round and round in circles hitting your head against a brick wall dealing with the Plymouth people.

Anyway I've given them a nudge, so here's hoping...!

 

[dquebec]

When I contacted VTEC recently to point out an anomaly fare that they set, I got the following response:

Thank you for your correspondence received 10 January 2016 with your suggestions regarding the flows and validity of our tickets.

We appreciate your feedback on this matter, but unfortunately we at Virgin Trains East Coast are not responsible for route restrictions and validity of routes. National Rail are responsible for these factors, and I would recommend that you contact them with your suggestion. I have included their email address below if you would like to contact them;

They actually think National Rail set fares/routes?!

 

[Merseysider]

I can't see what the problem is you upgraded to first advance paid the difference plus £10 as stated so all is correct, where was you going from and to

Do try and read the whole thread before commenting!

It's a long shot, but is there anything your bank might be able to do?

 

[najaB]

It's a long shot, but is there anything your bank might be able to do?

I'd be surprised if they did. If it was paid with a debit card then definitely not, and even with a credit card I doubt the ticket was above the £100 threshold as not many Standard Advance tickets would be.

 

[yorkie]

They actually think National Rail set fares/routes?!

The Plymouth-based agency staff will probably believe almost anything, yes.

 

[bb21]

I'd love to tell you to keep at it, but my dealings with various people at Passenger Focus strongly suggest to me that they could not even read a document presented to them with relevant paragraphs highlighted, so I doubt you will get anywhere. I don't know whether they have anyone knowledgeable at all working for them. I don't think so going by my experiences, but would love to be proved wrong.

 

[najaB]

I'd love to tell you to keep at it, but my dealings with various people at Passenger Focus strongly suggest....

I guess it comes down to the answer to the question "How much is £10 worth to you?"

 

[74A]

This is really about an interpretation of the wording in the NRCOC. In the OP first post the quote he uses says

Advance Single - As long as you are on the train shown on your ticket, simply pay the difference between your ticket and the First Class Single(plus £10 on CrossCountry services only).

This says to me that you are on the train and upgrading so you pay the full difference between you standard advance and the anytime first single for the journey and no admin fee.

Another quote

....2) Where the customer joins the correct train and wishes to upgrade to First Class on board, or wishes to
upgrade at a station beforehand between Standard and First Class on the correct train on which their
Advance ticket has been reserved, this is not classed as a change of travel plans.

Again to me this is about upgrading on the day to the full anytime first single and no admin fee is charged.

However changing you ticket from standard advance to first advance even if it is on the same train is a change of travel plans and the admin fee is payable.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If my experience of Passenger/Transport Focus is anything to go by, if you don't like the first decision just stick another complaint in and eventually you'll get someone who knows what they're on about.

It takes time, mind. It took me 12 months to get correct compensation out of East Coast for a delay...

 

[Haywain]

This is really about an interpretation of the wording in the NRCOC. In the OP first post the quote he uses says

Advance Single - As long as you are on the train shown on your ticket, simply pay the difference between your ticket and the First Class Single(plus £10 on CrossCountry services only).

This says to me that you are on the train and upgrading so you pay the full difference between you standard advance and the anytime first single for the journey and no admin fee.

Another quote

....2) Where the customer joins the correct train and wishes to upgrade to First Class on board, or wishes to
upgrade at a station beforehand between Standard and First Class on the correct train on which their
Advance ticket has been reserved, this is not classed as a change of travel plans.

Again to me this is about upgrading on the day to the full anytime first single and no admin fee is charged.

However changing you ticket from standard advance to first advance even if it is on the same train is a change of travel plans and the admin fee is payable.

Sorry, but completely wrong. This is an exception to the normal rules, as detailed in Knowledgebase:

Where the customer joins the correct train and wishes to upgrade to First Class on board, or wishes to upgrade at a station beforehand between Standard and First Class on the correct train on which their Advance ticket has been reserved, this is not classed as a change of travel plans.

There was a previous thread about this where the poster received a refund of the admin fee from VTEC. Details here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118459
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Does anyone have any thoughts on taking the matter further vs giving up?

Did you take the matter up with the Web Support team? As you booked and made the change online, this would suggest an error on the part of the website (possibly because it would be very difficult to set up correctly). You might (possibly, not certainly) have got a more sympathetic hearing going down that route.

 

[FQTV]

This is really about an interpretation of the wording in the NRCOC......

I don't think it is. I think that it's plain English, unless I am missing something:

Transport Focus and VTEC are, as far as I can see, wrong. Question 11 of the Advance Tickets FAQs section of the staff manual (a copy is available on this website) says that no fee is applicable when staying on the same train.

....2) Where the customer joins the correct train and wishes to upgrade to First Class on board, or wishes to
upgrade at a station beforehand between Standard and First Class on the correct train on which their
Advance ticket has been reserved, this is not classed as a change of travel plans.
Weekdays: All TOCs allow upgrade to First Class in the above circumstances. As with other ticket types,
charge the difference between the fare already paid and the appropriate First Single (dedicated or interavailable)
fare for the journey. No £10 fee should be charged for doing this (except on XC trains)....

Did the OP upgrade to First Class on board?

Did the OP upgrade at a station beforehand?

I upgraded online, to 1ST Advance.

As far as I can see, the online admin fee does not contradict any part of what the NRCOC's say and, further, as the admin fee is clearly shown before the upgrade purchase is made online, there can be no doubt that it formed part of that particular contract.

 

[najaB]

As far as I can see, the online admin fee does not contradict any part of what the NRCOC's say and, further, as the admin fee is clearly shown before the upgrade purchase is made online, there can be no doubt that it formed part of that particular contract.

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but it does seem odd that the method that likely had the lowest costs to the TOC is the only one that attracts an admin fee.

 

[FQTV]

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but it does seem odd that the method that likely had the lowest costs to the TOC is the only one that attracts an admin fee.

I think that's the pertinent point; the question in reality is whether the fee is justified, not whether it's allowed. The complaint refers to the latter, and is not upheld on that basis.

 

[Starmill]

I did wonder about this. If the policy is that the fee is chargeable online but not at a station then that is not at all clear and it would be very poor form for them to claim this a their reason for refunding. Note that VTEC are not saying that - they say (and have been insistent to me on 4 occasions now) that this type of change attracts the fees. Not that it doesn't attract fees but that they are charging me one for the benefit of making the transaction online and then trying to justify that using FQTV's logic (which they have not).

I will say that if that is the avenue they would choose to peruse then I find the information they have given me rather misleading.

My leading hypothesis remains that this is a website error, all of the information I had access to before the transaction suggested that the fee was not chargeable.

If VTEC have charged and refunded this fee in the past then I am minded not to give up. Although if all I get back is my £10 then very soon this will not have been worthwhile use of time. I'm tempted to write once to Transport Focus and if they still don't get it to try writing to the MD. Or can anybody think of a relevant member of Senior Management who might receive fewer letters than David Horne?