Upgrading for part of journey

[t o m]

Is it possible to upgrade to first for only part of your journey? I'd only want to go first class for the first half of the journey.

 

[Mike395]

Not without splitting the tickets as well - the only exception being Weekend First on long distance services, which only upgrades you to 1st for that train regardless of the full journey being undertaken

 

[t o m]

Thank you, I'll just split the tickets then.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is it possible to upgrade to first for only part of your journey? I'd only want to go first class for the first half of the journey.

Hah! Your question reminds me of a little 'trick' I played on a specific EC guard back in the days of the restaurant car (see all those other threads).
He was working my regular train one week and he had a particular wish to see all Standard Class passengers leave the Restaurant when they'd finished their meal and return to Standard. (The catering crew just shrugged their shoulders and apologised for him! They promised he wouldn't be rotaed on that service again for many months.). So when I was travelling on the same service a couple of days later, I split my tix; I presented a STD from Kings Cross to Doncaster and a FST from Doncaster to Newcastle, and making sure that I was still eating by Doncaster!

He just winked and walked on.

 

[island]

I imagine this is viable on FGW weekend first, but can't think of any other use for it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am sure the experts will tell you how, but you can excess in one way only where you pay the difference between first and standard for one leg. I have done this myself, useful if you are travelling between Sheffield and Manchester and you are not sure which operator you will return with. However in realitity you are just buying 2 singles.

 

[tony_mac]

Not without splitting the tickets as well - the only exception being Weekend First on long distance services, which only upgrades you to 1st for that train regardless of the full journey being undertaken

I don't think that's generally the case any more.
You can even buy some weekend 1sts which are valid across a change of train company.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't think that's generally the case any more.
You can even buy some weekend 1sts which are valid across a change of train company.

Not to my knowledge there aren't...what Weekend Firsts would these be?

 

[tony_mac]

From National Rail website

Through booking is possible when travelling on services of other train operators participating in Weekend First (excluding East Coast), provided the booking generally is made by 1800 on the day before travel.

 

[island]

I am sure the experts will tell you how, but you can excess in one way only where you pay the difference between first and standard for one leg. I have done this myself, useful if you are travelling between Sheffield and Manchester and you are not sure which operator you will return with. However in realitity you are just buying 2 singles.

I don't think this option is supposed to be available any more, although some TISs will sell it.

 

[AlterEgo]

From National Rail website

Interesting. I'm not aware of this arrangement or if it is even possible. All of VT's Weekend Firsts are TOC specific. Are you sure they don't mean that they will sell you two separate upgrades, one for each TOC?

 

[John @ home]

Is it possible to upgrade to first for only part of your journey? I'd only want to go first class for the first half of the journey.

What ticket type do you want to upgrade?

The Manual has a specific statement that it is not possible to upgrade Advance tickets for part of a journey only (excepting Weekend First upgrade).

The Manual Ticket validities -> Advance fares -> FAQs

Q11 - Can customers upgrade to First Class?

A: In most cases, yes. ...

Weekdays: All TOCs allow upgrade to First Class in the above circumstances. As with other ticket types, charge the difference between the fare already paid and the appropriate First Single (dedicated or inter-available) fare for the journey. No £10 fee should be charged for doing this (except on XC trains)

Note: Partial upgrades are not allowed with Advance tickets due to the difficulty of calculating the correct level of Advance fare pro rata for part of the journey.

The reason given for not allowing partial upgrades of Advance tickets might imply that the process of calculating the correct fare pro rata for other ticket types is a bit simpler. But I can't find anywhere that explains how to do that.

 

[tony_mac]

as usual, I can't be sure what national rail means, but it wouldn't make a lot of sense to mean anything else; and it's only listed for a few TOCs (SWT, EMT, NXEA and Scotrail).

I thought I had seen something on here about it before.

 

[premier01]

I am sure the experts will tell you how, but you can excess in one way only where you pay the difference between first and standard for one leg. I have done this myself, useful if you are travelling between Sheffield and Manchester and you are not sure which operator you will return with. However in realitity you are just buying 2 singles.

I originally interpreted the question as is it possible to upgrade for part of the journey e.g Preston to Leeds but only upgrading between Manchester and Leeds however it could also mean just on the return journey so I will post what I was going to say about upgrading for part of a journey-

I don't think it's an option in the excess processes however I was recently travelling with a SOR ticket between Leeds and Preston and on the Leeds to Manchester train 1st was declassified-great-however on the Manchester to Preston train it wasn't but it was very busy and wanted to get seat so when the ticket collector came round I requested upgrade expecting to pay for a FDS to Preston but was suprised when I was charged only £1.60! I was advised that the excess had been calculated just between Manchester and Preston so that was good but would work on the basis that it isn't usually an option but it works out well for that example.

As for the other interpretation it is very much allowed and very useful in some cases but it's hard getting people to issue the correctly priced excess a lot of the time.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What ticket type do you want to upgrade?

The Manual has a specific statement that it is not possible to upgrade Advance tickets for part of a journey only (excepting Weekend First upgrade).



The reason given for not allowing partial upgrades of Advance tickets might imply that the process of calculating the correct fare pro rata for other ticket types is a bit simpler. But I can't find anywhere that explains how to do that.

On that basis is it an option to upgrade Anytime or Off-Peak tickets for part of a journey-e.g between Manchester and Leeds on a Preston to Leeds SOR ticket as the fact that the quote from the manual refers to not partially upgrading Advance tickets due to the complexity of calculating the fares suggests it is-don't know any other explanation for partially upgrading an Advance ticket-they are always single tickets.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I originally interpreted the question as is it possible to upgrade for part of the journey e.g Preston to Leeds but only upgrading between Manchester and Leeds however it could also mean just on the return journey so I will post what I was going to say about upgrading for part of a journey-

I don't think it's an option in the excess processes however I was recently travelling with a SOR ticket between Leeds and Preston and on the Leeds to Manchester train 1st was declassified-great-however on the Manchester to Preston train it wasn't but it was very busy and wanted to get seat so when the ticket collector came round I requested upgrade expecting to pay for a FDS to Preston but was suprised when I was charged only £1.60! I was advised that the excess had been calculated just between Manchester and Preston so that was good but would work on the basis that it isn't usually an option but it works out well for that example.

As for the other interpretation it is very much allowed and very useful in some cases but it's hard getting people to issue the correctly priced excess a lot of the time.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


On that basis is it an option to upgrade Anytime or Off-Peak tickets for part of a journey-e.g between Mancheste and Leeds on a Preston to Leeds SOR ticket as the fact that the quote from the manual refers to not partially upgrading Advance tickets due to the complexity of calculating the fares suggests it is-don't know any other explanation for partially upgrading an Advance ticket-they are always single tickets.

We have been given guidance about upgrading for part of the journey. It is very common on our routes as many people want to travel in first class when possible, but buying a first class ticket isn't always appropriate due to the connecting standard class only services at each end. The guidance is as follows-

If a Single ticket -Charge the difference between the First Class Single fare and the equivalent Standard Class Single fare for the relevant portion of the journey. I.e. Someone holds a Leeds to Preston SDS and they wish to upgrade between Manchester and Preston only, the Excess is the difference between the Manchester - Preston SDS and FDS.

If for part of a return journey - charge half the difference between the First Class Return fare and the equivalent Standard Class Return fare for the relevant portion of the journey. I.e. If someone is using the return portion of a Leeds to Chester Off Peak Return and wishes to upgrade between Manchester and Leeds on the return journey. The Excess would then be calculated as half the difference between the Leeds - Manchester Off Peak Return and First Open Return.

Does this make sense?

 

[yorkie]

kwvr45 - Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm reasonably sure TPE are not obliged to offer that facility. However it is absolutely sensible & commendable that they do. So, good on TPE for doing that! Also, thanks (as always) for the interesting/useful info! (BTW, hope to see you at the Bradford meal next Thursday?)

 

[premier01]

We have been given guidance about upgrading for part of the journey. It is very common on our routes as many people want to travel in first class when possible, but buying a first class ticket isn't always appropriate due to the connecting standard class only services at each end. The guidance is as follows-

If a Single ticket -Charge the difference between the First Class Single fare and the equivalent Standard Class Single fare for the relevant portion of the journey. I.e. Someone holds a Leeds to Preston SDS and they wish to upgrade between Manchester and Preston only, the Excess is the difference between the Manchester - Preston SDS and FDS.

If for part of a return journey - charge half the difference between the First Class Return fare and the equivalent Standard Class Return fare for the relevant portion of the journey. I.e. If someone is using the return portion of a Leeds to Chester Off Peak Return and wishes to upgrade between Manchester and Leeds on the return journey. The Excess would then be calculated as half the difference between the Leeds - Manchester Off Peak Return and First Open Return.

Does this make sense?

It does and it is a logical and useful option-is that just on TPE then.

I tried this with a SDS Sheffield to Leamington Spa last week between Birmingham New Street and Coventry-primarily wanted to upgrade not for the short journey in 1st but to use the wi-fi at the Coventry lounge to urgently plan next leg of journey as battery on phone went.

I knew the FDS isn't that much but requested partial upgrade but the VT manager said it wasn't possible and could only issue the FDS ticket-wasn't sure if it was an option if it would have been any cheaper but had the FDS as back up plan.

The same TM then said to a customer wanting to upgrade the return portion of what I think was a New Street to London ticket- SVR and said some rubbish-or at least I think it is-about having to purchase a new FDS ticket for over £100 as the return portion only has a value of £1! Now that can't be right!

So back on the subject is that rule valid for any journey e.g Stoke to Preston but upgrading just from Manchester or only on where a TPE service has been used from the starting point.

 

[yorkie]

The same TM then said to a customer wanting to upgrade the return portion of what I think was a New Street to London ticket- SVR and said some rubbish-or at least I think it is-about having to purchase a new FDS ticket for over £100 as the return portion only has a value of £1! Now that can't be right!

Assuming route is Any Permitted, and there is no Railcard discount...

Return tickets - change of class in one direction
The difference between the price already paid and the sum of the appropriate Standard Single for one leg and the appropriate First Single for the other leg. If cheaper, charge the difference up to the appropriate First Return for the journey (as if upgrading for both directions).

Original Ticket: Off Peak Rtn (SVR) £44.30

Off-Peak Single for outward leg: £43.30
First Class Anytime Single for return leg: £120.00
Total: £163.30

Excess is therefore £119, therefore a saving of £1 compared to a brand new ticket.

However..

If the ticket was Railcard discounted, the excess would be greater than the cost of a new ticket and would therefore require a new single instead.

If the ticket was routed High Wycombe, the excess would be greater than the cost of a new ticket and would therefore require a new single instead.

It is possible the customer asked if he could get a refund on the original ticket if he bought a new 1st class ticket, in which case the reply you heard would make sense as a response to that specific question. If not, then the answer could still make sense from the point of view that the method of calculation on the excess is basically that it's the cost of a new 1st single MINUS the difference in fare between the return fare paid and the cost of the appropriate single fare, which is £1. It was, perhaps, badly worded, but not incorrect.

Hope that makes sense.

The rules on excessing would be reasonably fair if Virgin priced their singles in the way that FGW/EC/GC price their long distance singles, or if Virgin priced their "SVS" singles available for immediate travel at the same price as their "SVH" singles available online only.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

That process is not documented in the Fares Manual anywhere, as I suspect whoever wrote The Manual probably didn't think about it. The upgrading to First Class Excess Fares instructions are incredibly complicated and virtually impossible to do on the mobile avantix machines without doing lots of sums on paper and feeding the machine duff information to force it to give you a made up fare. The process I have described above is fair to all and is actually what I have always been taught for some years. If ATOC want to encourage more people to travel First Class they need to make upgrading much easier and more flexible (ie basically adopting the process I have described above for all journeys) to encourage some people who may only want a partial upgrade to do so.

 

[premier01]

Assuming route is Any Permitted, and there is no Railcard discount...

Original Ticket: Off Peak Rtn (SVR) £44.30

Off-Peak Single for outward leg: £43.30
First Class Anytime Single for return leg: £120.00
Total: £163.30

Excess is therefore £119, therefore a saving of £1 compared to a brand new ticket.

However..

If the ticket was Railcard discounted, the excess would be greater than the cost of a new ticket and would therefore require a new single instead.

If the ticket was routed High Wycombe, the excess would be greater than the cost of a new ticket and would therefore require a new single instead.

It is possible the customer asked if he could get a refund on the original ticket if he bought a new 1st class ticket, in which case the reply you heard would make sense as a response to that specific question. If not, then the answer could still make sense from the point of view that the method of calculation on the excess is basically that it's the cost of a new 1st single MINUS the difference in fare between the return fare paid and the cost of the appropriate single fare, which is £1. It was, perhaps, badly worded, but not incorrect.

Hope that makes sense.

The rules on excessing would be reasonably fair if Virgin priced their singles in the way that FGW/EC/GC price their long distance singles, or if Virgin priced their "SVS" singles available for immediate travel at the same price as their "SVH" singles available online only.

Yes get that now-have to say that I was working on the basis of the usual-but now officially the old way-of calculating the excess-the difference between the SVR and the FOR divided by 2 which would generally be cheaper than buying a new ticket on VT-suprised anyone is actually using the new rules though in view of the fact that for the length of time that the interim rules were in force no one usually followed them

I wasn't travelling with this other customer so can't really say what tickets he had but he got on at New Street and was going to Euston and the TM referred to an Off Peak ticket and the return portion so guessing it was a London to New Street SVR-the customer didn't seem bothered at all about buying new ticket so probably paying on expenses

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That process is not documented in the Fares Manual anywhere, as I suspect whoever wrote The Manual probably didn't think about it. The upgrading to First Class Excess Fares instructions are incredibly complicated and virtually impossible to do on the mobile avantix machines without doing lots of sums on paper and feeding the machine duff information to force it to give you a made up fare. The process I have described above is fair to all and is actually what I have always been taught for some years. If ATOC want to encourage more people to travel First Class they need to make upgrading much easier and more flexible (ie basically adopting the process I have described above for all journeys) to encourage some people who may only want a partial upgrade to do so.

Thanks for the clarification there-agree that is a fair process and good that a lot of staff are sticking with what they have been trained on and not following ATOC's which seem to have been thrown together, not consulted and therefore probably subject to challenge.

It's swings and roundabouts but think it is more than reasonable for customers to want flexibility and this would mean more people upgrade which is more revenue for the TOC's so must be a good thing all round-the new rules are too complex as you point out and aren't really very fair to customers or the staff that have to try to issue them

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Before 'The Manual', it said in the NFM that you did indeed charge the difference for the part of the journey for which first class was required. For example, if a passenger travelled from Southport to Sutton via Manchester and London, they could just excess the Manchester-London part.

Someone mentioned using one weekend first for more than one TOC. IIRC, it was the case that you only needed to buy one upgrade and could use it on other TOCs where there is a lower priced upgrade, however it is no longer possible, hasn't been since 'The Manual' came in atleast. As an example, if you were travelling on MML and CT and they set the prices for weekend first at £6 and £3 respectively, the £6 upgrade would cover you for both TOCs, the £3 one for only CT. I'm pretty sure this was a rule modified from BR days and probably didn't take that long to get noticed.

Some weekend first products now are not available for Advance ticket holders, I think Virgin Trains' product is an example of that, but without checking I'm not certain of that.

 

[AlterEgo]

No - you can still buy VT Weekend First on an advance ticket. However you can only officially upgrade on board subject to availability. You're not theoretically able to buy the upgrade in advance at a booking office. However it has been done before by relaxed ticket clerks - it's been documented on here.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I thought I had heard a guard announce it for 'walk-up' fares only onboard, I might have heard it wrong though.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I thought I had heard a guard announce it for 'walk-up' fares only onboard, I might have heard it wrong though.

That'll probably be on XC, which only allow weekend first on walk up ticket types.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Maybe, I was going from Warrington to Oxford via Birmingham on VT and XC, and with them both being Voyagers I could be getting confused.