Upgrade to 125mph XC....

[RichW1]

Are there any barriers (apart from funding) to stop the full piece of track from Exeter through to Birmingham being upgraded to 125mph?

Just think the woefully slow times could be a little improved if this were done. I know there's bottlenecks at New Street slower sections Derby to Sheffield and on to the ECML but really I still don't get why it takes so long to get from Bristol to Newcastle for instance. Mind you..there are a couple of stops too many which doesn't help I suppose. Anyway, any thoughts appreciated as I was on the route the other day and a lot of it seems very straight between Exeter and Birmingham (Bristol area aside) but yet I didn't feel we were going anywhere fast!

 

[Eagle]

Lickey incline at 125 mph would be fun...

 

[anthony263]

Crosscountry trains to/from Bristol TM have to get a path up filton bank and can be following a stopping service which doesnt help. I cant see teh whole route being upgraded to 125mph, hopefully the line between Bristol & Bridgewater will in the next few years which should knock a few minutes off the journey time.

 

[TEW]

Bristol-Bridgwater would be an obvious candidate for 125mph running as it is very straight. May well cause pathing problems though. At the moment XC follow the FGW slow unit in to Bristol Temple Meads, usually using the same platform. They get quite close at the Taunton end as well. Running them much later would also be a problem as you'd then be on top of the next hours FGW unit.

 

[RichW1]

So we have capacity issues, not enough tracks and passing loops on the route? Not good So there would need to be substantial 4 tracking in places to achieve through 125mph running? Seems such a shame we really did tie ourselves (unintentionally) into a very inadequate system way back when! We really do need an overlay system in high-speed track so very badly. If only it could happen sooner! The journey times over 200 miles, maybe up to 250 (in some very select cases) are appalling really. Though to be honest I just had a look at Great Western timetable for routes off the main London - Bristol and Cardiff route and I could not believe what i was seeing! The trains to Cheltenham are stopping at tiny local stations for much of the route, same with services to Hereford, and same again for services to Plymouth or Penzance like Castle Cary, Pewsey, Westbury all at the same time. It's no wonder no-one gets to those poor towns at the end of such lines very quickly!! I've said it 1000 times before but Intercity trains shouldn't be stopping at villages, it's crazy! That said Great Western is the only really guilty operator of this in my view. They offer terrible timings that are totally un-necessary. To stop 8 times in little over 100 miles or so is not a way to run or use Intercity trains or offer a good service to the medium size towns that should have better timings. If GW want to stop that much at village stations on such a route, why not just introduce regional trains because that's what all those routes are with that stopping pattern.

 

[Class172]

That's when the problem arises on the Cotswold line - there are many frequent stops which isn't suited to a HST, but the route is too long to run a 166 on comfortably. Maybe this is where the 180s will come in useful.

 

[starrymarkb]

So we have capacity issues, not enough tracks and passing loops on the route? Not good So there would need to be substantial 4 tracking in places to achieve through 125mph running? Seems such a shame we really did tie ourselves (unintentionally) into a very inadequate system way back when! We really do need an overlay system in high-speed track so very badly. If only it could happen sooner! The journey times over 200 miles, maybe up to 250 (in some very select cases) are appalling really. Though to be honest I just had a look at Great Western timetable for routes off the main London - Bristol and Cardiff route and I could not believe what i was seeing! The trains to Cheltenham are stopping at tiny local stations for much of the route, same with services to Hereford, and same again for services to Plymouth or Penzance like Castle Cary, Pewsey, Westbury all at the same time. It's no wonder no-one gets to those poor towns at the end of such lines very quickly!! I've said it 1000 times before but Intercity trains shouldn't be stopping at villages, it's crazy! That said Great Western is the only really guilty operator of this in my view. They offer terrible timings that are totally un-necessary. To stop 8 times in little over 100 miles or so is not a way to run or use Intercity trains or offer a good service to the medium size towns that should have better timings. If GW want to stop that much at village stations on such a route, why not just introduce regional trains because that's what all those routes are with that stopping pattern.

Westbury is an interchange. Castle Cary and Pewsey are railheads for many towns that are off the rail route (Devizes, Street/Glastonbury, Marlborough, Amesbury etc) Think of them as Parkway Stations.

Anyway the service pattern is going to change in a few years when IEP comes on stream. I believe the plan is for an hourly Exeter to London all Stations to Newbury run with an IEP with the Plymouth & Penzance services being non stop Taunton to Reading

 

[anthony263]

Bristol-Bridgwater would be an obvious candidate for 125mph running as it is very straight. May well cause pathing problems though. At the moment XC follow the FGW slow unit in to Bristol Temple Meads, usually using the same platform. They get quite close at the Taunton end as well. Running them much later would also be a problem as you'd then be on top of the next hours FGW unit.

Thats why i think it was stupid that they dont wire to Taunton this would allow for the Cardiff - Taunton service to be worked by emu's possibly the former heathrow connect class 360's perhaps?

My suggestion is re-timing the Cardiff service to depart Taunton at 23 minutes past the hour severn minutes after the crosscountry service has departed for Bristol if it is worked by emu's as it will arrive into Bristol tm exactly 60-61 minutes later. The service can ben overtaken by faster services when it goes via Weston Super Mare or between Parson Street & Bedminster once they have installed the extra tracks/platforms there so that the stopping train is timed to serve those stations.

 

[TheWalrus]

Good idea, it would help fgw services too. The west of england fasts would benefit and hopefully cardiff-taunton! Which really would help having emus!

 

[anthony263]

Good idea, it would help fgw services too. The west of england fasts would benefit and hopefully cardiff-taunton! Which really would help having emus!

It also allows for more class 165/166's to go elsewhere providing they can be cleared, perhaps to work trains on the Henbury loop

 

[Pen Mill]

Thats why i think it was stupid that they dont wire to Taunton this would allow for the Cardiff - Taunton service to be worked by emu's possibly the former heathrow connect class 360's perhaps?

My suggestion is re-timing the Cardiff service to depart Taunton at 23 minutes past the hour severn minutes after the crosscountry service has departed for Bristol if it is worked by emu's as it will arrive into Bristol tm exactly 60-61 minutes later. The service can ben overtaken by faster services when it goes via Weston Super Mare or between Parson Street & Bedminster once they have installed the extra tracks/platforms there so that the stopping train is timed to serve those stations.

Sorry to be negative but I fail to see any justification for OLHE Bristol to Taunton for one service per hour.
It's unlikely that the XC route to Birmingham will be electrified in a lifetime and HSTs through Bristol to Penzance will be required for the foreseeable future.

 

[anthony263]

Sorry to be negative but I fail to see any justification for OLHE Bristol to Taunton for one service per hour.
It's unlikely that the XC route to Birmingham will be electrified in a lifetime and HSTs through Bristol to Penzance will be required for the foreseeable future.

It could be 2-3 trains per hour between Bristol TM & Taunton if you extend the current Bristol Parkway - Weston Super Mare service,and possible increase the frequency of the stopping services from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes

 

[Rugd1022]

Although long stretches of the Gloucester - Brum route are dead straight, there are still some quite severe curves here and there which would preclude 125mph running without some major earthworks taking place.

 

[RichW1]

Thanks everyone; doesn't look like there's a way to do it without expanding track and therefore capacity. In my ignorance I hadn't realised there were enough local services that would get in the way. I thought the locals were more infrequent and 125 could be achieved without that issue so much, evidently not!

 

[IanXC]

Are there not quite a few (the correct name escapes me) inappropriate level crossings between Birmingham and Bristol on the XC route?

 

[rail-britain]

This is primarily a historical issue, where XC simply merged together other routes allowing passengers to travel without the need to change trains, albeit with a train that called at vastly more stations and often lower high speed
Previously the majority of such trains were loco plus LHCS, so were 100mph but towards the end of InterCity these were swapped to HST on the WCML allowing some small improvements in journey times, otherwise the remainder were Newcastle - South which could take advtantage of the 125mph speed limit along the ECML (so as not to impact the traditional ECML services to Kings Cross) and GWML (so as not to impact Paddington services)

There is little benefit to other TOCs, as the off-route sections are predominantly units only capable of up to 100mph
It would need a concerted effort between several TOCs on specific sections to see an increase in the line speed, thus to take advantage of the 125mph speed limit for all affected TOCs
However, an example of this is the WCML, where the line speed has been increased to 125mph but the local services remain only capable of 100mph

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there not quite a few (the correct name escapes me) inappropriate level crossings between Birmingham and Bristol on the XC route?

They have a plan for this section in the CP4 HLOS enhancements, "Westerleigh Junction to Barnt Green line speed increase":

The project will enhance the linespeed on approximately 18 miles of track between Bristol Parkway and Gloucester and between Cheltenham and Birmingham. To be a cost effective programme the enhancement must piggyback on the planned high output S&C and conventional track renewals planned on the route during 2010/11 to 2012/13.
In addition to achieving a line speed of 100 mph, the project will explore the possibility of raising the linespeed capability to 110 mph over approximately 30 miles in each direction, to be realised once relevant level crossing renewals are completed at the end of CP4 / early CP5 along with other relevant additional works that may be required.

 

[The Planner]

That is yet another scheme that has been cut and cut. Small sections are going to be raised to 100mph and others to 90mph and as mentioned the level crossings are the limiting factor at the moment. The biggest section of improvement is south of Standish, around Charfield way. If it wasnt for the LCs, there would be sections of 110mph.

 

[Zoe]

Anyway the service pattern is going to change in a few years when IEP comes on stream. I believe the plan is for an hourly Exeter to London all Stations to Newbury run with an IEP with the Plymouth & Penzance services being non stop Taunton to Reading

I'd be surprised if the London to Exeter service stopped at Bruton though. As for Plymouth/Penzance services, I read that they will run faster between London and Exeter so I just hope Taunton does not become the GWML equivalent of Nuneaton. It's quite possible Tiverton Parkway could be dropped though from Plymouth/Penzance services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It could be 2-3 trains per hour between Bristol TM & Taunton if you extend the current Bristol Parkway - Weston Super Mare service,and possible increase the frequency of the stopping services from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes

I agree, not sure about every 20 minutes but 1 train per hour from Bridgwater to Taunton is quite poor.

 

[TheWalrus]

Anyway the service pattern is going to change in a few years when IEP comes on stream. I believe the plan is for an hourly Exeter to London all Stations to Newbury run with an IEP with the Plymouth & Penzance services being non stop Taunton to Reading

I'd be surprised if the London to Exeter service stopped at Bruton though. As for Plymouth/Penzance services, I read that they will run faster between London and Exeter so I just hope Taunton does not become the GWML equivalent of Nuneaton. It's quite possible Tiverton Parkway could be dropped though from Plymouth/Penzance services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It could be 2-3 trains per hour between Bristol TM & Taunton if you extend the current Bristol Parkway - Weston Super Mare service,and possible increase the frequency of the stopping services from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes

I agree, not sure about every 20 minutes but 1 train per hour from Bridgwater to Taunton is quite poor.

Dont worry, tivvy and taunton wont be dropped from fasts!
I think if its electrified to say plymouth,fgw may be interested in an hourly fast service bristol-plymouth to compete with xc. This could call at bridgwater if necessary to give 2tph to bristol and taunton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks everyone; doesn't look like there's a way to do it without expanding track and therefore capacity. In my ignorance I hadn't realised there were enough local services that would get in the way. I thought the locals were more infrequent and 125 could be achieved without that issue so much, evidently not!

Dont give this one up! Its a good idea! We just need to work out what we would have and solve any pathing issues.

 

[Zoe]

Dont worry, tivvy and taunton wont be dropped from fasts!

I wouldn't be so sure of that, we won't know for certain until closer to the time but I'm not convinced of the need for Plymouth/Penzance trains to stop at Tiverton Parkway. The idea of running a slow train to Exeter is so that the Plymouth/Penzance services can run faster to Exeter by not stopping at the smaller stations and Tiverton Parkway would still have a 1 tph service to London with the possibility of changing at Taunton for a fast train if it isn't decided to run the fast train non-stop from Exeter to Reading. As for Taunton I think the fast trains could stop there but it could be decided that headline journey times to the Westcountry are more important.

 

[TheWalrus]

I'm not convinced of the need for Plymouth/Penzance trains to stop at Tiverton Parkway.

fgw are! And arent tiverton and taunton in the west country?

 

[Zoe]

fgw are! And arent tiverton and taunton in the west country?

Yes, FGW currently stop Plymouth/Penzance trains at Tiverton Parkway as if they didn't then there would only be a few trains trains each day to from Tiverton to London. With an hourly Exeter to London service this won't be the case. There is no official definition of the Westcountry but the point is that it could be decided that headline journey times from Exeter and West are more important than stopping at Taunton.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yes, FGW currently stop Plymouth/Penzance trains at Tiverton Parkway as if they didn't then there would only be a few trains trains each day to from Tiverton to London. With an hourly Exeter to London service this won't be the case. There is no official definition of the Westcountry but the point is that it could be decided that headline journey times from Exeter and West are more important than stopping at Taunton.

I would really like to see an hourly Paddington-Exeter, calling at Reading, Newbury (*), Westbury, Castle Cary (*), Taunton and Tiverton (* = alternate), allowing the Plymouth / Penzance trains to run non-stop from Reading (or even Paddington) to Exeter...

 

[Zoe]

I would really like to see an hourly Paddington-Exeter, calling at Reading, Newbury (*), Westbury, Castle Cary (*), Taunton and Tiverton (* = alternate), allowing the Plymouth / Penzance trains to run non-stop from Reading (or even Paddington) to Exeter...

So you would leave Pewsey without a service then? I'd also stop at Newbury hourly as it is the largest town on the Berks and Hants and an hourly link to Taunton and Exeter would be useful. It would also allow for an hourly fast service from Paddington to Newbury.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So you would leave Pewsey without a service then? I'd also stop at Newbury hourly as it is the largest town on the Berks and Hants and an hourly link to Taunton and Exeter would be useful. It would also allow for an hourly fast service from Paddington to Newbury.

I debated between Westbury and Newbury alternating, but went for Newbury as I saw Westbury as a good interchange for Salisbury / Bath / Trowbridge etc. For the rest, I thought about extending the Reading-Newbury hourly as present to Taunton or Castle Cary. Please don't say 'What about London services?'...

 

[Zoe]

I debated between Westbury and Newbury alternating, but went for Newbury as I saw Westbury as a good interchange for Salisbury / Bath / Trowbridge

Maybe but from London there are direct trains to Salibsury and Bath so people wouldn't be going on FGW and changing at Westbury. You could call at Reading, Newbury, Pewsey(alternate), Westbury, Castle Cary(alternate), Taunton, Tiverton and Exeter though. Fast journey times would not be so important as there would still be the fast service to Exeter although I would still have concerns about removing Taunton calls on fast trains.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Maybe but from London there are direct trains to Salibsury and Bath so people wouldn't be going on FGW and changing at Westbury. You could call at Reading, Newbury, Pewsey(alternate), Westbury, Castle Cary(alternate), Taunton, Tiverton and Exeter though. Fast journey times would not be so important as there would still be the fast service to Exeter although I would still have concerns about removing Taunton calls on fast trains.

I'd settle for that. It would be tempting to alternate Reading and Taunton on the fasts too...

Surely Westbury could be used for intermediate stations, such as Trowbridge, Bradford-on-Avon and Warminster.

 

[TheWalrus]

For gods sake! We have completely forgotten about kintbury hungerford and bedwyn again!
Tiverton is more likely to be dropped from semi fasts than fasts. Taunton will also stay as is id imagine.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... For the rest, I thought about extending the Reading-Newbury hourly as present to Taunton or Castle Cary ...

For gods sake! We have completely forgotten about kintbury hungerford and bedwyn again!

I didn't