Unused wasted track.

[Jones]

If the rail is reusable you destroy it by cutting it. Scrap trains still run. Road recoveries happen all the time.

The problem is getting access to the line side to pick the stuff up and/or move it to somewhere where you can pick it up.

Most of the stuff I've seen is bolted, so it's standard lengths...mostly.

Road access isn't difficult surely? I've laid miles of temporary road way. even if it's across a field...in the summer

 

[DarloRich]

Most of the stuff I've seen is bolted, so it's standard lengths...mostly.

Road access isn't difficult surely? I've laid miles of temporary road way. even if it's across a field...in the summer

would that it were so easy!

 

[Jones]

As an outsider it seems that the entire rail network is resistant to change and use the rules to justify not doing anything.

I might understand more if I ever get a job on the inside.

 

[Tomnick]

...or rather uses 'the rules' to protect the safety of both the public and the workforce, maintain the integrity of such as the signalling system, the permanent way and structures and generally keep such a complex industry running as smoothly as possible?

 

[Boodiggy]

Cordon the area off? It don't work like that I'm afraid!

Also, how are you taking the rail away? Take it you are sticking it on a train? That costs money, plus where it's slotting into the schedule. And the T3 you would be taking around it. Then tools, PTS, lifting certs, equipment to lift it

I have a question. How do they transport rail by wagon? Seeing as it can be in long old sections, and wagons tend to go around bends! Unless I am being very thick..

rail is delivered and can be collected using the CWR train. rail is usually delivered in 709ft / 236y lengths. As stated the rail(s) will bend when the train goes around curves. Its only the clips and sleeper housings that keep it in place in the track. Regarding removing rail it can be cut into short lengths and removed to access points to be collected by road also its what we usually do where I work. It works out at roughly £180 per tonne although the collection method will depend how much you get. To get rail collected in lengths by train you get less per tonne but will get much more taken away in a shift, but there are a lot of deductions to come from there including staff, machine, possession costs, the cost to have it collected, either road hauliers or by booking a train with the required wagons and loco's so it is quite expensive. As for other redundant materials it all depends and a lot of them will have no recoverable cost. Things such as ballast taken from the track are usually taken away as hazardous waste.
As DarloRich states NR now use the facility at Whitemoor where serviceable materials such as sleepers and rails are stored and used on lower category lines around the country. They also repair damaged crossings etc so they can be used again.

 

[Jones]

...or rather uses 'the rules' to protect the safety of both the public and the workforce, maintain the integrity of such as the signalling system, the permanent way and structures and generally keep such a complex industry running as smoothly as possible?

Appreciate that, NEBOSH qualified so I understand about safety.

The majority of this stuff can by it's very nature be removed without affecting the running lines. So I still don't see the issue.

Can MPV's not be used to remove scrap? I thought they were flatbed load movers?

 

[carriageline]

You clearly don't. There is distances people must be from open running lines, plus a position of safety must be reached within X amount of seconds.

The majority of it will be next to high speed lines, or in the 4 foot (between the rails).

If you are taking it by road, then that would be easier. Providing road access is right next to the site where the rail is, there is a nice big cess where you can fence off, and you don't require plant. You can't go crossing running lines with lengths of rail (for obvious reasons) If you use plant, lines have to be blocked unless they have movement prohibitors (?) fitted. Then you have to start thinking about traction isolations, and how are you getting the plant to site? (How will you get the MVPs there?)

Then what about a lot of the rail that is in the 4 foot? Or places with no reasonable road access? Then line blockages are needed, T3s (possession of the running line for engineering work), trains to haul it away.

In some places, yes, it can be picked up and chucked in a lorry with ease, as it's sitting in the cess clear of a running line. But I doubt the majority of it is that conveniently located. For example, next to the Up Fast on the WCML, miles from an access point won't be able to be done under red zone (no protection) and won't be able to just take a T3 willy nilly for that.

All this planning, paying for staff/plant/trains will see little profit, if any.

 

[Jones]

I am aware of safety distances and times to get to safety.

I get it wouldn't be easy to retrieve some of it unless it was under possession, BUT, there are miles of the stuff in yard sidings and on rural lines that could be retrieved at night.

A contractor employing PTS trained guys to do the work could make it profitable. I guarantee it.

Why is rail left after jobs anyhow? If a train was specially used to deliver it why could one not go and pick it up afterwards?

 

[Tomnick]

I get it wouldn't be easy to retrieve some of it unless it was under possession, BUT, there are miles of the stuff in yard sidings and on rural lines that could be retrieved at night.

A contractor employing PTS trained guys to do the work could make it profitable. I guarantee it.

I can't disagree that a fair bit, in yards with decent road access, could probably be removed without too much trouble. The other thing to consider, though, is the technicalities of removing a siding - my understanding is that, even if it's (temporarily) inaccessible by virtue of the fact that the main line connection has been plain-lined, removing it altogether would constitute a network change, to which TOCs and particularly FOCs might object (on the basis of potential future use).

Why is rail left after jobs anyhow? If a train was specially used to deliver it why could one not go and pick it up afterwards?

Quite often, I suspect it's left because there's not enough time available in the possession to start recovering old rail - given the desire to be as productive as possible, and the time pressures involved, it seems a sensible choice. Presumably it's often collected at a later date, during a possession when the activity wouldn't be getting in the way of the relaying gangs' productivity!

 

[Boodiggy]

I am aware of safety distances and times to get to safety.

I get it wouldn't be easy to retrieve some of it unless it was under possession, BUT, there are miles of the stuff in yard sidings and on rural lines that could be retrieved at night.

A contractor employing PTS trained guys to do the work could make it profitable. I guarantee it.

Why is rail left after jobs anyhow? If a train was specially used to deliver it why could one not go and pick it up afterwards?

It's not that simple. A few new trains have been order to speed up the removal. But there is not the availability of the train at present. When collecting rail using the CWR train the rail must be in lengths of 183m or 216m (I think, although this Maybe slightly different) and prepped ready for the train to collect. There is a lot of prep to do just to get the rail placed and the correct length to remove. Remember there are AWS, TPWS, TASS Balises etc in the four foot so it's not just a case of sending a train in to get it. Prepping the rails may mean it needs cut into the correct lengths that means transporting welding teams to site and using machines to move the rail. Remember a 709ft length of rail weighs over 12 tonnes.
Even if a 'contractor' employing staff were to do the work then they still need to apply for possessions, machines and haulage to remove. Staff would need trained etc scrap removal does not need many unskilled PTS staff, it's mainly machine work. The staff required will need skills such as COSS, Engineering Supervisor, PICOP, Machine Contoller.
There is money made when rail is collected which goes back to Network Rail but bear in mind there is always other work going on in possessions and all this goes through a planning process to make sure the work fits in and works with all the other works going on. And once all the deductions are taken off it's not as lucrative as many think unless large amounts are removed at the same time.
Also it depends on the area where you are working. A rural line will not generate as much scrap as the main lines as there is not coing to be the same amount of work.

 

[transmanche]

I have a question. How do they transport rail by wagon? Seeing as it can be in long old sections, and wagons tend to go around bends! Unless I am being very thick..

I wonder how many people assume that railway track sections are like model railway track; i.e. they don't realise that rail is flexible and they assume that curved sections are manufactured like that.

 

[underbank]

Weren't there complaints at one time about NR being over-keen on ripping up rails when they perhaps could have been left in case they were needed again. I think there was one case I read about where a few miles of double track was ripped up and removed from site at haste (Morecambe to Heysham branch I think). A lot of people were saying that it perhaps should have been left in case the line needed to be redoubled due to new power station or increased trade at Heysham Port, but at that time, NR said that the track was worth more in scrap value and needed to be removed and sold! Sounds like they're changing their mind if they're starting to leave disused track in situ or leaving it in yards etc.