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Unstaffed Station Ticket Rules

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JamesM

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Hello,

I'm a very law abiding citizen and want to make sure I do the right thing.

I'm off from Frodsham to Lancaster tomorrow. Say I can't get a ticket on the train between Frodsham to Warrington. I have a 6 minute change at Warrington to a train (which is only one an hour as far as I can tell) will I be charged a full penalty fare if I board the Virgin Train without buying a ticket at Warrington and try and get one on the Virgin Train - I am assuming the answer here will be "yes", so the passenger has to wait for another hour, because the TOC decides not to bother with a ticket office at Frodsham?

Thanks guys - very interesting as ever.
 
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bnm

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First of all you can't be charged a Penalty Fare on Virgin. They don't have a PF scheme.

The rule as laid down in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, when starting your journey at a station with no ticket buying facilities, is that you must purchase a ticket at the earliest opportunity.

With 6 minutes at Warrington BQ, you may have time, you may not. But you shouldn't have to delay your journey to buy a ticket. I'd contend that you should have no problem buying the appropriate ticket for your journey on board the Virgin service once you've explained where you started your journey.

If you can locate the Virgin Train Manager before boarding then so much the better, but this isn't a requirement. Neither is seeking him/her out once aboard, but that too is a sensible course of action.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Virgin Trains do not issue Penalty Fares.

You should buy a ticket at the first reasonably practicable opportunity.
 

Searle

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I would imagine that they would happily sell you a ticket on board the Virgin service, although I've heard stories otherwise (especially in South Wales).
 

185143

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Hello,

...the passenger has to wait for another hour, because the TOC decides not to bother with a ticket office at Frodsham?

Thanks guys - very interesting as ever.

There are 2 TPH between Warrington and Lancaster

xx:14 Virgin Pendolino Ex Euston to Glasgow Central
and
xx:27 Virgin Voyager Ex New Street to Glasgow Central/Edinburgh Waverly
 

transmanche

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will I be charged a full penalty fare if I board the Virgin Train without buying a ticket at Warrington

Virgin Trains do not issue Penalty Fares.
But you knew what he meant right? A 'full fare' (i.e. Anytime Single) as a 'penalty' for not purchasing before boarding.

You should buy a ticket at the first reasonably practicable opportunity.
And to answer the OP, I don't think six-minute interchange gives you a 'reasonably practicable opportunity' (which is what the Conditions of Carriage calls it). I think the consensus of opinion here is that means you don't have to miss your connecting train, if you were not able to purchase your ticket at your originating station or from the conductor.

Although you are not required to actively seek out the conductor on the ATW train, in practical terms it would be better to do so, so you can purchase your ticket before Warrington BQ - that will ensure you don't have any problems on the Virgin service.
 

bb21

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I agree with the recommendation to try and get a ticket at Warrington if you can, however in my experience the ticket office at Bank Quay can get quite busy on a Saturday so you might not have the time to wait until you are served, if you don't want to miss your train. (You have no obligation to miss your train as already pointed out.)

Trying to locate the ATW guard is a good idea to save you from potential hassle later on in the journey, although they are also known to get busy.

If you don't succeed at either, you should be entitled to pay the fare you would have paid had you purchased before boarding. Speaking to the Virgin guard before boarding if you can can also help, although again, you are not obligated to do so.
 

hairyhandedfool

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But you knew what he meant right? A 'full fare' (i.e. Anytime Single) as a 'penalty' for not purchasing before boarding....

If they meant that the op should have said that. Even if I understand what they meant it does not follow that everyone understands that and so a myth grows that Virgin Trains issue Penalty Fares.

....And to answer the OP, I don't think six-minute interchange gives you a 'reasonably practicable opportunity' (which is what the Conditions of Carriage calls it).....

The NRCoC says:

National Rail Conditions of Carriage Condition 3 said:
... Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey....

Everyone has a different idea of what is 'reasonably practicable' which is why I chose not to state what I believe it is. I wouldn't confuse 'reasonably practicable' with 'reasonable' though. I might consider the outcome the same in some circumstances however.
 

transmanche

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If they meant that the op should have said that.
Not everybody is au fait with the precise terminology of the railway.
Even if I understand what they meant it does not follow that everyone understands that and so a myth grows that Virgin Trains issue Penalty Fares.
It would be simple to politely correct any error as part of your answer.
 

HST Power

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While we're on the subject could anyone tell me why Virgin don't have a Penalty Fare scheme? What steps do they take to tackle fare evasion?

Having visited Carlisle last week I was really surprised to see a complete lack of ticket barriers.
 

swt_passenger

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While we're on the subject could anyone tell me why Virgin don't have a Penalty Fare scheme? What steps do they take to tackle fare evasion?

Having visited Carlisle last week I was really surprised to see a complete lack of ticket barriers.

Penalty fare areas are basically intended for high intensity commuter operations, where there's a reduced likelihood of 100% on-train checks.

There's a reasonable correlation between PF areas and former NSE TOCs, so pure long distance TOCs such as ECML and WCML would not be expected to have PF schemes.

Where a TOC is a combination of former intercity and local or regional operators, such as GW or MML, it is not so obvious.
 

furlong

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Everyone has a different idea of what is 'reasonably practicable' which is why I chose not to state what I believe it is.

The SRA stated the following (in the context of Penalty Fares):

Interchange. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a penalty fare should not be charged.

SRA Penalty Fares Policy 2002
 

yorkie

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While we're on the subject could anyone tell me why Virgin don't have a Penalty Fare scheme?
The Penalty Fare rules make it very clear that Schemes should not be used for longer distance operators. It is rather unfortunate that EMT were granted their scheme (against best practice), and FGW operate about 3 separate schemes intended for local journeys (you cannot be issued a PF for, say, Truro to Paddington!)
What steps do they take to tackle fare evasion?.
On-board checks, and occasionally blockades at stations. The former are vastly better for obvious reasons.

Note that a PF should never be issued in a case where there is evidence of fare evasion. It is a higher than normal fare that is charged when passengers make mistakes in certain circumstances.

For example forgetting to bring your Railcard would be such a circumstance, but travelling at a barred time on a time restricted ticket, or using a route restricted ticket by a different route, are both not circumstances in which case a PF can be charged.

For more information, see our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide :)
 

island

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For example forgetting to bring your Railcard would be such a circumstance, but travelling at a barred time on a time restricted ticket, or using a route restricted ticket by a different route, are both not circumstances in which case a PF can be charged.

That's not quite right. As per NRCoC 12, you can be charged a Penalty Fare if you use a Super Off-Peak or Off-Peak ticket on a train on which it isn't valid. You cannot be charged a Penalty Fare for using a route-restricted ticket on another route.
 

tony_mac

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That's not quite right. As per NRCoC 12, you can be charged a Penalty Fare if you use a Super Off-Peak or Off-Peak ticket on a train on which it isn't valid. You cannot be charged a Penalty Fare for using a route-restricted ticket on another route.

only for 'some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications)'

Which, as far as I know, is only likely to apply to advance tickets. Unless anybody is aware of any such notices and publications for off-peak tickets?
 

jkdd77

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You need to read onto the next page, page 10, second paragraph.

Although it is badly worded, I interpret the final sentence of that paragraph as only modifying the previous sentence, and not the entire paragraph, such that PFs can be charged, in PF areas, on unilateral (i.e., without prior permission) usage of standard class tickets in first class accommodation.
Clearly, a passenger would indeed be liable for a PF if using an standard class Off-Peak ticket to travel in first class in a PF area.

The alternative interpretation would effectively invalidate the first sentence of the paragraph (which limits a passenger's civil liability to only payment of an excess fare), and mean that PFs could always be charged (in PF areas) to passengers using time-restricted tickets at barred times, or on otherwise permitted routes barred by the ticket routeing.

There is nothing in the notices and publications of Off-Peak tickets suggesting that PFs can be charged when an otherwise valid ticket is used at the wrong time and there is no reason why the ticket is invalid (railcard conditions may (and do) provide that tickets used without accompanying railcards are wholly invalid such that the passenger may be PF'd in PF areas, but that is another matter entirely).

The statutory basis for Penalty Fares are the Penalty Fares Regulations and Rules made under the Railways Act 1993 as amended.

Rule 7.6 states:
An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published
restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

The wording: "An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published
restriction
" seems to be to be pretty clear and definitive, regardless of any ambiguity in Condition 12 itself.

DfT guidance on the Penalty Fares Rules also states that PFs must not be charged in these specific circumstances.

Of course, if there was some other additional reason why the (Super) Off-Peak ticket was invalid besides a "published restriction as described in Condition 12" (wrong class, no railcard, out of date, parts of return ticket used out of sequence, re-used, used so as to illegitimately double back, overdistance, not on a permitted route at all) then a PF could be issued.

Furthermore, I believe at least two resident RPIs have confirmed in this forum that PFs cannot be charged solely because a (Super) Off-Peak ticket is time-barred, and there was a reported incident (I can't immediately find the link) where a passenger succeeded with an appeal against a PF in such circumstances.

Finally, a member of staff is not obliged to sell an upgrade if a passenger has previously passed an opportunity to upgrade his or her (Super) Off-Peak ticket, but may choose to report for consideration of prosecution. There seems to be little doubt that a 'byelaw 18' prosecution would succeed in such circumstances, since the passenger has failed to produce a (wholly) valid ticket on demand.

The passenger's answers, and actions, may well incriminate himself or herself further, potentially opening the way to a prosecution for fare evasion.
 
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JamesM

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Although you are not required to actively seek out the conductor on the ATW train, in practical terms it would be better to do so, so you can purchase your ticket before Warrington BQ - that will ensure you don't have any problems on the Virgin service.

Indeed this is what I did, and he was very nice about it! Many thanks.
 

34D

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That's not quite right. As per NRCoC 12, you can be charged a Penalty Fare if you use a Super Off-Peak or Off-Peak ticket on a train on which it isn't valid. You cannot be charged a Penalty Fare for using a route-restricted ticket on another route.

I don't believe this is correct, for the reasons given by others.

Regarding the Opening Post, what is the minimum connection time at Warrington?
 

transmanche

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Regarding the Opening Post, what is the minimum connection time at Warrington?
I think it's just the 'standard' five minutes. I've certainly had advance ticket itineraries that had a six-minute connection.

For the OP's journey, it's going to be a same-platform or cross-platform interchange anyway.
 

bb21

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That's correct. Within Warrington Bank Quay the minimum connection time is the standard 5 minutes.
 
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