Unreserved Portion of 'Advance' Ticket?

[Daimler]

Apologies if this is elsewhere in the forums - if it is, I've missed it!

Next week I shall be travelling from Hemel Hempstead to Bath on an advance ticket (with a 16-25 Railcard) - the reserved portion, obviously, will be the part of the journey from Paddington to Bath. While the journey from Hemel to Euston is unreserved, the booking engine showed my the 09:35 train from Hemel to Euston as being the one to use.

Now, as I am not booked onto this specific service, am I allowed to use an earlier train to get into London - one potential problem might be that the 09:35 is the first off-peak train from Hemel to Euston, but I am unsure as to whether or not this affects which trains I can use on an advance ticket.

Also, does anyone know how good the first class lounge is at Paddington - I've never had an opportunity to go in there before. I've seen photos of what it's like inside, but can you get free snacks/drinks/whatever while waiting for your train in there?

Thanks!

 

[scotsman]

Jeez, if you've got an 'Advance' ticket - you must use it on the train you booked it for - or you will be PF'd.

If you've purchased a ticket in advance ('Off Peak'/'Anytime') it is valid on trains within the relavent time frames.

 

[transportphoto]

Also, does anyone know how good the first class lounge is at Paddington - I've never had an opportunity to go in there before. I've seen photos of what it's like inside, but can you get free snacks/drinks/whatever while waiting for your train in there?

Thanks!

Here we go...

First Class Lounges
Enjoy exclusive access to our First Class lounges at London Paddington and Cardiff, providing a comfortable area to work or relax in while you wait for your train.



First Class Lounge at Paddington
The First Class lounge at London Paddington offers the choice of a modern, comfortable bar area or the traditional, Victorian feel lounge.

The modern extension has comfortable chairs and tables with a bar offering complimentary refreshments. It also has workstations with access to the Internet.

There is a large screen TV showing Sky News and also a departures board showing train times. The Victorian lounge offers old world splendour and comfort, with large armchairs and soft lighting, making it the perfect area to relax.

The lounge is located on Platform 1 and is open 05:30 to 23:59 Monday to Friday and 16:00 to 23:59 on Sunday.

HTH

TP


---old post above--- ---new post below---

Jeez, if you've got an 'Advance' ticket - you must use it on the train you booked it for - or you will be PF'd.

I have a sneeky feeling that that isn't true in this case, I wasn't going to comment on that part so I will leave now and hand it over to the experts...

 

[Daimler]

Here we go...

HTH

Cheers!

I have a sneeky feeling that that isn't true in this case, I wasn't going to comment on that part so I will leave now and hand it over to the experts...

Indeed - while I understand fully you have to use the train on which a seat has been reserved, I'm not so sure about unreserved connecting services...

 

[Traveller]

Jeez, if you've got an 'Advance' ticket - you must use it on the train you booked it for - or you will be PF'd.

Depends what ticket type. The Apex and Superadvance (or whatever they call them these days), you only have to travel on the booked trains if they were bookable. The old NSE trains weren't bookable.

 

[ainsworth74]

Jeez, if you've got an 'Advance' ticket - you must use it on the train you booked it for - or you will be PF'd.

I'm fairly sure in this case they would only have to use the reserved train on one leg, on the unreserved leg they could use any train (not sure about off-peak and peak validity however).

 

[transportphoto]

I'm fairly sure in this case they would only have to use the reserved train on one leg, on the unreserved leg they could use any train (not sure about off-peak and peak validity however).

One thing I can (forgot to) comment on is that the peak restrictions are on the ticket and not applicable to the trains.

In this case - the advance ticket has no peak restrictions, however it is booked train only* = lets wait for the ticketing experts to have a look online, most of them are out at the forum meal

 

[Pumbaa]

You can use any train D, as you've only got the reservation for Padd - Bath. The ticket should say FGW+Connections or similar. LM trip is the connections part, so feel free to use any train. If they start going off on one about peak/off-peak, wave it in their face and tell them to jog on.

You won't get your ticket checked anyway - its LM south of Northampton. There's no such thing!!

 

[ainsworth74]

One thing I can (forgot to) comment on is that the peak restrictions are on the ticket and not applicable to the trains.

Indeed, I was just keeping things simple. Also it slipped my mind

most of them are out at the forum meal

Abandoning us in our hour of need! So unreliable

 

[scotsman]

I'm fairly sure in this case they would only have to use the reserved train on one leg, on the unreserved leg they could use any train (not sure about off-peak and peak validity however).

Fair enough. I've never come across a combination advance ticket before.

 

[RJ]

Fair enough. I've never come across a combination advance ticket before.

There is such a thing, where the connecting train is actually specified on one ticket.

You won't get your ticket checked anyway - its LM south of Northampton. There's no such thing!!

Not true.

 

[Pumbaa]

Not true.

Sorry didn't realised I commuted for the best part of 4 years from Hemel to London every day by train and thus didn't have a reasonable base of experience on which to base my judgement?!

 

[John @ home]

Abandoning us in our hour of need!

Not all of us! But some have limited access and can't quote anything due to dodgy Wifi on an East Coast train. More when the 2130 from Kings X deposits me in Leeds. That won't be today.

 

[RJ]

Sorry didn't realised I commuted for the best part of 4 years from Hemel to London every day by train and thus didn't have a reasonable base of experience on which to base my judgement?!

I have mine checked most times I travel with LM though I normally do so outside of peak times.

 

[yorkie]

I would accept both Pumbaa and RJ as having a good knowledge of what happens on LM If there is a difference of opinion I suggest it is either down to situations changing (RJ's experiences may be more recent for example) or down to experience of different services (e.g. different times of travel/different calling patterns etc).

My own experience on LM south of Northampton is that my ticket is checked if on a fairly fast train, but not if on a train that calls at places like Harrow. I can only ever recall having my ticket checked between Euston and Harrow once out of many (I'm talking several dozen) journeys, but given the presence of barriers, this is not surprising.

 

[MCR247]

I used LM from London - Northampton 5 times during my ALR, because I stayed in Northampton twice. No ticket check once. Another time I used LM to Coventry once to get a Virgin to Euston, no ticket check on the LM, and another time I got a Virgin Voyager from Northampton

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Daimler,

I suspect the ticket is routed 'AP Slough', so you can use any reasonable* non-reserveable service** for the portion that you do not have a reservation for, without worry.

If the ticket has '+ connections' in the route you can use any reasonable* service for the part of the journey not covered by the reserved train run by the TOC named in the route.

*If you can show it on a 'valid travel itinerary' it should be fine

**If it is a reserveable service it will indicate a change of travel plans and could land you with a big extra fare to pay.

 

[RJ]

I would accept both Pumbaa and RJ as having a good knowledge of what happens on LM If there is a difference of opinion I suggest it is either down to situations changing (RJ's experiences may be more recent for example) or down to experience of different services (e.g. different times of travel/different calling patterns etc).

There are barriers at each London station LM serves so I suspect Pumbaa will have had to present his/her ticket for inspection by the barriers or RPIs in four years, unless by some perverse anomaly, the barriers were open every day? As with several London termini, there's an excess fares window at Euston which anyone who has been caught travelling without a valid ticket is promptly redirected to!

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes admittedly LM has barriers at all their stations south of Northampton on the mainline route into Euston. However there is still ticketless travel that occurs due to alternative exits at Watford, Hemel, Berko, Bletchley and Tring. Not to mention the fact that Apsley and KL have open barriers after 10am (others may also, but these two are the only ones I have knowledge of).

I digress; my original point was to highlight how infrequently LM staff check tickets south of Northampton. They still patrol the train, but refuse to check tickets. It does irk me as a passenger who pays everytime, to know that the guy sitting opposite me is getting a free ride but hey - I'm not going to start travelling fraudulently.

I asked one guard in Feb why he didn't check tickets; she's Northampton based and by some bizarre coincidence, she ended up doing my service 4 times in a row. She simply answered "it's money for the company - I'm not willing to put up with angry pax while management are refusing to listen to us". Quid pro quo I suppose.

 

[Greenback]

To digress further, barriers alone don't stop ticketless travel or fare evasion! As we have discussed many times!

 

[John @ home]

While the journey from Hemel to Euston is unreserved, the booking engine showed my the 09:35 train from Hemel to Euston as being the one to use.

Now, as I am not booked onto this specific service, am I allowed to use an earlier train to get into London

My position on the use of Advance tickets on non-reservable connecting services other than any suggested ones remains as set out in November 2009 in this post in the Advance Tickets: Question on Restrictions thread.

passengers encounter no difficulties in using the train of their choice for an unreserved leg of a journey with an Advance ticket. The legal position has not been, and is unlikely to be, tested.

 

[moonrakerz]

To go back to the OP !

I have travelled from Westbury to Paignton on advance tickets on several occasions. Two trains on this trip, Westbury/Exeter, Exeter/Paignton. Only the Westbury/Exeter portion has a train/seat reservation. One trip I enquired at the booking office at Paignton about which train I could use back to Exeter and was told quite clearly "any train" as there was no reservation.

 

[Daimler]

Thanks to everyone for the informative and very helpful replies!

However, I sent an email to FGW's Customer Service department last night at the same time as posting on here. Here is the response I received:

As per the terms and conditions of an Advance Ticket you will need to travel on the same date and time as mentioned on the ticket.

You will therefore need to travel by the 09:35 and we would request you to board the train and occupy any vacant seat as your journey from Hemel Hempstead to London Euston is non-reservable.

We would like to inform you that, you can use the First Class Lounge at London Paddington station and the facility is available from Monday-Friday between 05:30 - 23:59 and Sunday between 16:00 - 23:59.

Now, judging by the various posts on here, this seems to be at odds with the generally accepted wisdom - certainly, I had a feeling that I could use any train for the unreserved portion of the journey. Indeed, various posters have quoted examples where rail staff have told them any train can be used.

In all honesty, I feel more inclined to trust the highly knowledgeable posters on this site than the Customer Support people, who, judging by the format of emails I've received from them recently, seem to be operating a 'cut-and-paste' style system where the Customer Support people trot out pre-prepared answers to 'general' questions rather than an individual response. For instance, in the section about the first class lounge above, I had only asked if I could use it with my ticket - not whether or not it was open. Another message I sent asking about facilities in the first class lounge elicited the response 'We have checked the information and would like to inform you, first Class is a separate carriage with more space and leg room. Some Train Operators offer complimentary snacks and drinks and free Wi-Fi access.' My question was clearly completely misunderstood, to say nothing of the inelegant phrasing of the reply. It doesn't really inspire confidence!)

So, is this a concious attempt to force passengers to use a specific train when using an unreserved portion of an advance ticket, or simply misinformed and inexpert 'Customer Service'?

 

[yorkie]

Now, judging by the various posts on here, this seems to be at odds with the generally accepted wisdom

A call centre once told me I could get a King's Cross to Poppleton SVR for about £1.50 (long story), this was also at odds with generally accepted wisdom.

certainly, I had a feeling that I could use any train for the unreserved portion of the journey. Indeed, various posters have quoted examples where rail staff have told them any train can be used.

The rail staff in question are applying common sense. This is lacking in call centres. Not necessarily because the workers as individuals do not possess any, but they are not allowed to use it.

In all honesty, I feel more inclined to trust the highly knowledgeable posters on this site than the Customer Support people, who, judging by the format of emails I've received from them recently, seem to be operating a 'cut-and-paste' style system where the Customer Support people trot out pre-prepared answers to 'general' questions rather than an individual response. For instance, in the section about the first class lounge above, I had only asked if I could use it with my ticket - not whether or not it was open.

If you can copy and paste and have an IQ above 80, you could do the job, basically.

Another message I sent asking about facilities in the first class lounge elicited the response 'We have checked the information and would like to inform you, first Class is a separate carriage with more space and leg room. Some Train Operators offer complimentary snacks and drinks and free Wi-Fi access.' My question was clearly completely misunderstood, to say nothing of the inelegant phrasing of the reply. It doesn't really inspire confidence!)

According to ATOC we can now "buy with confidence" and we all know "exactly where we stand"

So, is this a concious attempt to force passengers to use a specific train when using an unreserved portion of an advance ticket, or simply misinformed and inexpert 'Customer Service'?

It's an attempt to keep the rules 'simple', I believe.

It's been done to death here before, but ask yourself this: how can you possibly be told off for not getting a train that there is no record of on your ticket?! Of course if you miss the 0935 then if you get to Paddington too late, they'll see the 0935 would have made the connection and then you'll be forced to buy a new ticket because you missed your train. So getting a later train is a risk! Getting an earlier train to London is very sensible as you are then less likely to miss your booked train from Paddington.

Imagine trying to force a customer to take a specific train from Clapham Junction? "Sir, can I see your confirmation letter?" (Customer is under no obligation to provide it, but does anyway) "you are not booked on this train!" "But I can get any train to Waterloo" "But sir, you are booked on the 0835 from platform 10. This is the 0835 from platform 3, we arrive 2 minutes later, that will be £200 please!" "How was I supposed to know that?" "Sir, it is your responsibility to get the correct train."

Of course that would never happen, except in the dreams of the clueless person who gives FGW call centre staff the list of FAQs to copy and paste from, and maybe others who share their ill-informed views.

There is no obligation to be in possession of anything other than the ticket and the reservation, so they can never know what you are 'suggested' to get! Do I need to say more? The answer is obvious.

Back in the days of the larger style tickets, they said "Suggested service" - this made it clear that it was only a suggestion. But now we have simplification so we know "exactly where [we] stand" (err, not!)

 

[MikeWh]

So, is this a concious attempt to force passengers to use a specific train when using an unreserved portion of an advance ticket, or simply misinformed and inexpert 'Customer Service'?

It's the latter. The ticket doesn't show train times, only the reservation one does, and only for the service that requires reservation. If you have to show your ticket to a human then it is unlikely that they will ask for the reservation, and even if they did they wouldn't work out which train you needed to use.

The only rider is that you mustn't travel later than the train shown in your itinery, even if you're 100% sure you don't need to allow oodles of time for the underground. If there was a delay somewhere and you missed the reserved train at Paddington then they wouldn't endorse the ticket for a later train if you hadn't allowed at least the instructed time.

 

[moonrakerz]

The FGW "words of wisdom" contradict each other.......

"As per the terms and conditions of an Advance Ticket you will need to travel on the same date and time as mentioned on the ticket.

You will therefore need to travel by the 09:35 and we would request you to board the train and occupy any vacant seat as your journey from Hemel Hempstead to London Euston is non-reservable."

As the 0935 is NOT "mentioned on the ticket".....................

 

[Daimler]

But now we have simplification so we know "exactly where [we] stand" (err, not!)

The FGW "words of wisdom" contradict each other.......

"As per the terms and conditions of an Advance Ticket you will need to travel on the same date and time as mentioned on the ticket.

You will therefore need to travel by the 09:35 and we would request you to board the train and occupy any vacant seat as your journey from Hemel Hempstead to London Euston is non-reservable."

As the 0935 is NOT "mentioned on the ticket".....................

Indeed.

It is disappointing, though, to see such important information incorrectly transmitted by those people who are supposed to help passengers in difficulty. While those of us who know something about the railways might realise this is wrong, many passengers clearly wouldn't.

To be honest, having read so many ticketing threads on this forum, I shouldn't be surprised... :roll:

 

[yorkie]

It is disappointing, though, to see such important information incorrectly transmitted by those people who are supposed to help passengers in difficulty. While those of us who know something about the railways might realise this is wrong, many passengers clearly wouldn't.

There are two possible solutions, both of which won't happen.

1) A massive training exercise to educate all staff about ticketing rules & regulations, ensuring that all staff treat and advise customers fairly and correctly and accurately. This would cost £millions and will never happen.

2) The ticketing system & rules are made a lot simpler (which I will not go into detail here) but this will never happen either, due to issues with franchises making assumptions about revenue and the way the system was privatised by the Tories in the mid-1990s. The whole system would have to have fundamental changes before the ticketing system could fundamentally change. I would be extremely concerned that such an overhaul would reduce passenger rights and diminish validities so I would totally oppose it unless guarantees were made in law to prevent that happening.

Basically, there is no viable solution.