Unprofitable rail services could be axed under Government proposals

[jon0844]

My £3,500 season works out at just under £10 per day, including bus travel (plus bus).

I am not sure what a normal return to Old Street would be, travelling in the morning peak but coming back off-peak (no evening peak for services to Hatfield) but I don't think I'm saving THAT much - especially when that's for 365 days a year. Given that I don't have to use the ticket at weekends, and annual leave, I'd get this down to 236 days of travel per year; or £15 per day.

Now, I have a Z1-6 travelcard as part of this, which I could get rid of and save a bit - but it seems a no brainer for the off-peak usage and other travel around London - yet, I think it shows that a season ticket isn't a massive discount. Every day I don't use it (off sick or whatever) reduces the benefit, which means I should be going to/from London as many times as possible to get the best value for money. I doubt many season ticket holders do this!

Imagine a smartcard system that allows more flexible travel. That would be VITAL for people who could work from home some of the time, as they would currently not be able to benefit from any sort of season - as they'd pay for days they don't need. We talk about PFs for those without tickets, but it seems just as unfair to charge people for not even travelling at all!

 

[CarterUSM]

I donlt think some people realise just how cheap they can be compared with day returns. Some people may well think you need to travel for at least four days a week over a year to make it worthwhile. Even if you tell them they probably can't believe it if it sounds too good to be true!

Absolutely! I think it is around 4 days a week for a weekly, certainly in my neck of the woods anyway, but a yearly, if one can afford the inital outlay is certainly a better discount.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Imagine a smartcard system that allows more flexible travel. That would be VITAL for people who could work from home some of the time, as they would currently not be able to benefit from any sort of season - as they'd pay for days they don't need. We talk about PFs for those without tickets, but it seems just as unfair to charge people for not even travelling at all!

Aren't the fares in the southeast traditionally more expensive? It doesn't sound that great a discount though as you say. For flexible travel, flexipasses ,if available are great value though in my area are prone to misuse of ridiculous proportions.

 

[Greenback]

The fares (and discounts) vary a lot. There seems to be no relation between a peak return and the cost of weekly season. I suspect most passengers would assume that a weekly ticket would be, perhaps equivalent to the cost of 3.5 or 4 daily tickets. The latter would mean a discount of 20%, a not insignificant amount!

For example, a standard class monthly season from Reading to London Terminals is £325.30. An Anytime return is £34.30, which is less than 10 day returns! Effectively, that's more than a 50% discount compared to the alternative of daily tickets.

Adding a Travelcard to the Reading ticket makes the cost £386.70, but we must compare that to an Anytime Day Travelcard at £39.90. Again, this is less than buying only 10 daily tickets. Even someone who only goes into the office 2-3 times a week may well be better off buying a monthly season.

A monthly Llanelli to Swansea is £48.40, which corresponds to just over 11 day returns, a slightly lower discount than Reading to London passengers receive, but still worth getting even if I don't happen go into work 5 days in a week.

Comparing season prices with day returns is, I think, the best way to objectively analyse just what sort of a discount the commuter is getting. Added to the benefits are the Gold Card in London and the South East, and, a highly atractive one for me personally, not having to queue and buy seperate tickets every day, week or month! I am also protected from any rise in the daily cost over the 12 month validity.

 

[furryfeet]

It's not exactly surprising that FC is lightly used, as there's only one return option per day for FC passengers.

Plus the fact that there is no effort made to make FC pricing more attractive !
1st class single crewe to newport on the WAG train is 59.70 - if one books in advance ( looking at 25th August ) then one gets a 70pence(!) discount.

Same for coming back too !

Are there any Arriva personnel out there who would like to explain this ?

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps, as the train is funded by the WAG, they are not interested in filling the First Class seats? Do ATW keep the revenue, or is most or all of it paid back to the WAG?

 

[furryfeet]

flexible travel.......be VITAL for people who could work from home some of the time, as they would currently not be able to benefit from any sort of season

I have read recently that Norman Baker was considering changing the way season tickets are sold, to cater for these sorts of people, myself included.
Did this "change" include say, selling season tickets which are just valid for 3 consecutive days, or 3 in 7 flexi ?
Has anything happened with this, or has it disappeared into the ether with the spending cuts ?

 

[Greenback]

I have read recently that Norman Baker was considering changing the way season tickets are sold, to cater for these sorts of people, myself included.
Did this "change" include say, selling season tickets which are just valid for 3 consecutive days, or 3 in 7 flexi ?
Has anything happened with this, or has it disappeared into the ether with the spending cuts ?

I would support such an innovation, but bear in mind that many of the discounts still save you money on an average of three trips a week!

 

[Dennis]

This is silly....

We'll have to agree to disagree on this; commuters make a lifestyle choice which means they pay a lot of money and can spend a lot of time commuting on congested roads and railways so that they can live 'somewhere nice' (or perhaps affordable?).

To me, that doesn't make sense - I would personally move or seek alternative employment. Don't forget, it might be £3500 in fares but, unless you actually enjoy commuting or can continue working and being paid while travelling, you should also write off the value of your own time.

I don't know how much you value your own time but I'd be willing to bet my shirt that your employer values it at >£20/hour (not what you are paid but what it costs them to employ you). If you commute for 2 hours a day, 200 times a year, that's £8000.

Adding up the hard cash and soft costs, you, and a lot of other commuters, choose to give up £10k per year or more to keep up a lifestyle which I personally find rather odd.

BTW - I cycle to work; half an hour each way every day wind or shine. Other road users do make the journey hazardous, but I get great health benefits and my carbon emissions are quite low. Journey time is only about 5-10 minutes longer than is possible in a car and I probably spend about £100 per year on the bike and associated kit.

 

[jon0844]

I can't afford to move into London (having moved out 7 years ago) and wouldn't want to.

I can't seek alternative employment. My job is in London, as are other jobs like it. There are some publishing companies I could perhaps work for that are in Bath and Bournemouth, but that would definitely mean moving. It's not easy to move 100-150 miles for a job, and the wife would then have quite a long commute for hers - which is a cycle ride from our home! Not only that, but my life is here and moving miles and miles for a job is much more 'costly' than the value of my time to get to work.

I am lucky in that, while my commute is bloody expensive, I can leave my front door at 0844 and hop on a bus 0845 - get the 0902 train and be AT MY DESK in Old Street at 0935, including the walk from the station. People would probably kill for a journey like that, and that is with a change of train inbetween! If I get the slow train, I'm at work at 0940. Getting home isn't quite as fast but it's still easy - unless things go pear shaped and I have to take the tube or bus.

However, as the office is some 25 miles from home, cycling isn't an option. Colleagues cycle, who like in London, and I wouldn't hesitate if circumstances were different. I considered a folding bike, but with the bus being so convenient I have to admit that I've opted for that. I have no need for the bike at the other end you see, and leaving the bike at Hatfield is a big no no - mine was stolen the first day I parked it there!

 

[wibble]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this; commuters make a lifestyle choice which means they pay a lot of money and can spend a lot of time commuting on congested roads and railways so that they can live 'somewhere nice' (or perhaps affordable?).

I certainly agree with the lifestyle choice, although it's a shame so many jobs are London-centric.

I gave up on living on the South Coast after 9 months as I was losing around 24 hours per week to commuting. Not fun at all.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Where can we expect cuts to services ?

Services in Scotland and Wales may be protected by sympathetic administrations in Edinburgh and Cardiff. More vulnerable areas include Devon & Cornwall and northen England. Decision will have to be made when the next group of rail franchises come up for renewal.

 

[Metroland]

Going back to season tickets, I suppose you have to give some sort of discount to get a captive set of customers. There's a good chance if there wasn't a discount, you'd get more people buying tickets on the day (not everyone has lots of money up front, especially when there is no incentive).

This would be a headache for the railways and would need more staff and admin costs.

It's not the season ticket holders that create a loss for the railway with commuter operations, it's hours of work. What costs a lot is all the poorly loaded trains during the day. With modern electronic communication, do we all need to be in the office at the same time these days?

Probably not.

Yet there seems no incentive from government to stagger work hours and encourage employers to introduce flexitime, which would save an enormous amount of congestion and problems with cost.

 

[merlodlliw]

Perhaps, as the train is funded by the WAG, they are not interested in filling the First Class seats? Do ATW keep the revenue, or is most or all of it paid back to the WAG?

The deal struck was, WAG pay almost £8K a trip subsidy,ATW keep the revenue.

Not stopping at Hereford(A WAG all Wales franchise station) is ridiculous,when it stops at Chester & Shrewsbury both WAG stations.

 

[Greenback]

The deal struck was, WAG pay almost £8K a trip subsidy,ATW keep the revenue.

Not stopping at Hereford(A WAG all Wales franchise station) is ridiculous,when it stops at Chester & Shrewsbury both WAG stations.

Then it;s a bit mystifying why they don't offer at least a few cheaper advance purchase FC fares! Do they have to keep the plebs out for the benefit of the VIPs?!

I agree there should be a stop at Hereford - it has good bus links to parts of Powys!

 

[Dennis]

Going back to season tickets, I suppose you have to give some sort of discount to get a captive set of customers.....[/QUOTE]

I don't think there are many that dispute that sentiment but, to my mind, the figures do suggest commuters could be squeezed a little more.

It's not the season ticket holders that create a loss for the railway with commuter operations.... What costs a lot is all the poorly loaded trains during the day.

But you can't really get staff just to work the peaks and it's not sensible to dump rolling stock in the sidings during the day, still paying leasing charges, hence the vast numbers of empty units circulating during the day. Changing working patterns will of course help but what are defined as peak hours seem to be steadily growing anyway.

The fact that peak services remain overcrowded yet the number of empty trains still remains a concern could be considered a failure of the yield management models being used, including the peak / off peak pricing.

One other thing that alarmed me recently was an employee stating that within the TOC they worked for, 53% of staff had the word 'manager' in their job title; not sure of the truth of this but if it is correct, surely a case of too many chiefs and not enough indians. Is that a typical situation within the railway industry - if so, there's another easy target for a bit of cost cutting.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The so called WAG Express is no use in Mid Wales either as connections from the Cambrian at Shrewsbury are an hours wait both ways. I will not be on it tomorrow morning but on the preceding Holyhead to Cardiff service which arrives a good 40 minutes earlier. In my experience more WAG employees can be found on this service as it gets to Cardiff earlier.

There are still plans for a second service that heads north in the morning and south in the evening.

 

[merlodlliw]

The so called WAG Express is no use in Mid Wales either as connections from the Cambrian at Shrewsbury are an hours wait both ways. I will not be on it tomorrow morning but on the preceding Holyhead to Cardiff service which arrives a good 40 minutes earlier. In my experience more WAG employees can be found on this service as it gets to Cardiff earlier.

There are still plans for a second service that heads north in the morning and south in the evening.

The WAG EXPRESS is an elite train dreamed up by the Minister from Yns Mon, it was never going to allow first class at a discount.
The Northbound dream wont get off the drawing board until it can call at Wrexham in place of Crewe, by this time the Minister may well be gone and the whole idea dropped due to cost,
And as for the other dream WAGAIR, have a read,

Airport news

Readers may recall that Highland Airways, the operator of the subsidised air service between Valley and Cardiff, went 'bust' earlier this year. Not previously recorded here is that Isle of Man-based company Manx2 were persuaded to take over until a new four-year contract could be awarded; although the small print on the Manx2 website says: 'Our flights are operated by VanAir Europe AS, FLM Aviation, Flightlinebcn & Jetstream Executive.'

The Welsh Assembly Government has announced it is inviting operators to tender for for the route, and is exploring adding an additional midday return journey on Mondays and Fridays. But passenger figures obtained by the Western Mail newspaper suggest the Assembly is now subsidising the route with £2 for every £1 paid in fares. Passenger numbers have fallen, it is reported, with only half the seats filled during June, compared with about 80% during the year after North-South flights began in 2007. In May 2008, 88% of seats were filled on the North-South flights, but load factors declined after WAG launched its express train from Holyhead and Bangor to Cardiff in December 2008.

Manx2 began the service – two return flights per working weekday
between Cardiff Airport and RAF Valley – on May 10. The service
carried about 450 passengers in May, increasing to 828 in June. Manx2 say the relatively low load factor partly down to passengers having to find their way to a different website to book tickets, and the fact that when the service restarted, the lowest fare was £39. When the
Highland Airways service ended, it was £19. Manx2 now offers £29 one-way tickets on selected off-peak flights from September (fares are £39 or £49 on all flights we can find in August.)

The Welsh Assembly Government has refused to disclose its subsidy for
Manx2 – even to the National Assembly’s finance committee. If current subsidy is the same as when Highland Airways operated the service, June’s subsidy per passenger journey would equate to £121 –
more than twice the maximum fare. Finance committee chair Angela Burns is using Freedom of Information legislation to try to obtain details of the air subsidy, after Transport Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones told her the financial arrangements 'are commercial in confidence.' The subsidy for the flights includes £400,000 a year for Anglesey council to operate Anglesey Airport, the civilian terminal at RAF Valley.

From August 6 to September 6, Manx2 are planning to offer flights between Anglesey and the Isle of Man on Fridays and Mondays. Fares supposedly start at £39 single, but a quick look at their website shows the only fares available in August as £59.50 single.

Source http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

 

[northwichcat]

The fact that peak services remain overcrowded yet the number of empty trains still remains a concern

The problem in the Northern area is the frequencies on different lines don't correspond with off-peak loadings.

Examples:

Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington is a very busy commuter corridor but Northern run half-hourly stoppers at off-peak times which they struggle to even quarter-fill

Manchester to New Mills Central services are very frequent and in the main they are very lightly loaded at off-peak times. The exception being the services that continue to Sheffield, however, they only operate every two hours.

Manchester to Chester via Altrincham isn't a busy commuter corridor but can get overcrowded off-peak services. Manchester to Buxton is a very busy commuter corridor but most off-peak services are lightly loaded, except in school holidays when some off-peak services are over crowded.

 

[Metroland]

Going back to season tickets, I suppose you have to give some sort of discount to get a captive set of customers.....

I don't think there are many that dispute that sentiment but, to my mind, the figures do suggest commuters could be squeezed a little more.




But you can't really get staff just to work the peaks and it's not sensible to dump rolling stock in the sidings during the day, still paying leasing charges, hence the vast numbers of empty units circulating during the day. Changing working patterns will of course help but what are defined as peak hours seem to be steadily growing anyway.

The fact that peak services remain overcrowded yet the number of empty trains still remains a concern could be considered a failure of the yield management models being used, including the peak / off peak pricing.

One other thing that alarmed me recently was an employee stating that within the TOC they worked for, 53% of staff had the word 'manager' in their job title; not sure of the truth of this but if it is correct, surely a case of too many chiefs and not enough indians. Is that a typical situation within the railway industry - if so, there's another easy target for a bit of cost cutting.

There are too many managers in the railway industry, that's without question. And far more were introduced after privatisation. More managers were needed to talk to other managers to make the decision single managers were making beforehand.

Mangers (at least at a low and middle level) for the most part, are administrative staff and are not generally productive, so I'd be for cutting, but what needs to happen is the vast simplification and how the railway operates and doubling or tripling up of roles. The government has introduced a lot of management roles into the railway and other industries through dictating structure, accountancy and health and safety practices.

The industry never needed fragmenting in the first place, there is plenty of competition out there, and what should have been looked at is the most cost effective and customer friendly structure.

Years ago, branch line stations were often operated by people that were managers of that station, signalmen, lamp men, cleaners and other roles. That is extremely rare to non-existent now in the railway industry. But you could imagine a situation where booking office staff double up as managers of the station and so on.

Most surface transport problems are caused by work patterns, and actually the solution to them is intelligent pricing coupling with flexible working of the people that use transport.

 

[jon0844]

People like titles, and it seems the industry allowed this to happen even when a lot of people have no real authority or management skills.

It happens all the time, and looks good for a CV when changing job, but that's about the only benefit.

 

[northwichcat]

People like titles, and it seems the industry allowed this to happen even when a lot of people have no real authority or management skills.

It happens all the time, and looks good for a CV when changing job, but that's about the only benefit.

All LM conductors (at least those from the CT area) are all known as Senior Conductors, unless they're a trainee.

 

[Geezertronic]

All LM conductors (at least those from the CT area) are all known as Senior Conductors, unless they're a trainee.

That's like a Train Manager isn't it?

 

[PR1Berske]

Suddenly all those RUC projections seem.....er.....highly unlikely =<

 

[northwichcat]

That's like a Train Manager isn't it?

Or those working in Head Office known as 'Marketing Executives' when they are 21 year old graduates on less than £14000 a year.

 

[Dennis]

More managers were needed to talk to other managers to make the decision single managers were making beforehand.

And that is possibly another problem the industry faces, its glacially paced response to change.

Now, I'm well aware of the life of the assets and the time it realistically takes to provide new infrastructure but we are now embarking on major projects a decade later than we should have, thinking Thameslink, Crossrail and HS2. Study after study, CBA, GRIP, waiting for consultants reports, reviews.....it seems nobody is capable of making decisions and getting on with the job of providing the rail infrastucture that was needed last year, not in two decades time.

By the time the unprofitable services (but, importantly, generally still with growing passenger numbers) are actually cut, we will possibly be into better times with a restructured franchise arrangement which may not allow for rapid growth. Yes, I'm going around in circles, but so is the industry - cut costs, maximise revenue and grow, that surely is the challenge that must be met. Retrenchment is not the answer.

 

[Metroland]

A lot of it is tied up with politics, who is going to fund things, government policies and so on.

You only have to read the comments pages on the web, where one person thinks something is a great idea, someone else doesn't. I dare say a lot of politicians are fairly clueless when it comes to transport, with a few notable exceptions, some are even ideologically against rail, like Tory John Redwood.

I was reading about the Nottingham Tram extension tonight, The Tory led county council has withdrawn support for the Tram, whereas the city council still supports it. The county council owns the land, and refuses to hand it over to the city council, it's all ended up on court, which has cost £200,000 straight into the pockets of the lawyers.

Anyway, the hold up caused by the bickering politicians is going to add another £5 million to the project and more delay.

Cross rail is another case in point, this was costed at £1.5 billion in the 90s, and cancelled by the Tory government to save money. It's now costing £16 billion, and bits may be cut back again.

In an effort to save money, and improve things, these people actually cost us money. they either hold things up through planning, or won't fund things pretending they are delivering value. So rail mangers are constantly working on projects that may never see the light of day, which uses up considerable resources, because of outside politics.

Another example is East-West rail, and incredibly useful link between Oxford and Milton Keynes, which has been on the drawing board for decades. But there are so many councils involved, and so many sources of funding, it seems forever to get anything done. Meanwhile costs are rising, and a mockery of the private railway, if you mess private investors around, costs tend to soar even more, which is exactly why things are costing far more now, than under BR, when the treasury controlled the strings.

Yet another example, non rail related, is the forthcoming energy crunch in the privatised electricity industry. A lot of the coal fired power stations are shutting down (some of which is due to climate obligations), but with not much to fill the gap. We were having more nuclear, but as this needs subsidy, the austerity government has refused to fund it, and we're going to get very tight on capacity leaving only wind to fill the gap. Hopefully the lights won't go out, but the present government will be out of power by then.

The point is, despite all these sell-offs, these private companies in various utilities are involved with government at all levels.

I actually think BR was more responsive to some of the challenges. For example, we needed a low cost signalling system for lightly used single line routes, so RETB was born. BR could usually speak in a united voice and was in for the long haul, whereas a lot of the private franchises really aren't bothered what happens in just a few years, and aren't seeing the cost and innovation challenges in many cases, at least to the extent BR did, because they know they can go cap in hand to government anyway.

 

[scotsman]

IT is worth noting that if any English electrification schemes are cancelled/delayed, the Scottish Government is still going 'full speed ahead' on the Glasgow-Edinburgh
electrication.

Very sensible too.

One rule for Scotland and another for England. Ah well !

Ahem, transport is a devolved power.

 

[Helvellyn]

Why do so many seem to assume that cutting poorly used services means branch lines and rural areas seeing huge service cuts? The DfT has prescribed franchises so tightly that the vast majority of services are a franchise commitment. An example of this I can give is that we were told that two trains per hour Waterloo-Weymouth is a franchise commitment. During parts of the day one train per hour would suffice, and in the past NSE would have trimmed such a service off-peak. SWT can't. Similarly, two trains an hour Waterloo-Alton seems excessive during parts of the day (indeed it is half-hourly from start to finish, bar one service missing mid-morning to create a path for the Holybourne tanks). Some of those off-peak Alton services could be cut back to Farnham, providing an hourly Waterloo-Alton and an hourly Waterloo-Farnham.

Clockface timetables bring many advantages, but they can also result (especially with the way DfT prescribed franchises) with a very rigid service pattern, that at times of the day is not justified, especially with costs being watched so much.

 

[Metroland]

That's the whole point, that system is going. It's going to be based purely on supply and demand, and if people don't use services they will go, and ones where services are oversubscribed will be strengthened.

In fairness this is more economically efficient, but will result in cuts to some lines.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/open/2010-28/consultation.pdf

The Government believes that enacting the right reforms to the franchising system should result in train services that are more responsive to passenger demand. We believe that passengers could benefit if operators are given more freedom to implement or propose changes to services to adjust supply (in terms of service levels, length of trains etc) to reflect changes in demand. This would give a greater say to the professionals whose business it is to run services and will often have a greater insight into passenger demands and travel patterns than central Government.

I'm not against the idea of giving operators more freedom in any way, but they must deliver value and a better service overall.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Some of those off-peak Alton services could be cut back to Farnham, providing an hourly Waterloo-Alton and an hourly Waterloo-Farnham.

Indeed, that is what used to be the case, isn it not?