Unprofessional Train Conductor

[TheCardinal]

Please delete if this is in the wrong place but I'm just looking for some advice on this matter.

I was issued a penalty fare this week on a matter which I believe was very unfair and even presented evidence on the matter. I won't go into too much detail but I am far more comfortable purchasing tickets from the machine but sadly due to past issues with the touchscreen not working or the machine not even being turned on I have to rely on the online ticket system. I faced an issue with the trainline app where my payment didn't go through even when it said that it said it was succesful. When i went to view my tickets this failed leading me to have to purchase onboard as I unknowingly boarded the train without one. I am autistic and prefer having something printed so I am always uneasy about technology but this is the first issue I've ever faced with Trainline.

I don't wish to go into too much depth here because I am currently appealing this, just wanted to add it as context.

I accept how this looks but the train conductors (specifically one of them) I believe acted very unprofessionally. Long story short, I was approached by the two conductors whilst sat on the train. When asked about my ticket I explained the situation and even provided valid evidence. My partner who I boarded with payment did go through and was purchased on time and I even showed them the evidence. Most ticket conductors are usually aware of the issues with these machines and when I've had no choice but to collect tickets they are usually very understanding and just say to collect when I'm off at my connection. This is an inconvenience anyway but I digress.


These two conductors patronised me even when presenting them with evidence. One of them even connected to the train wifi intentionally missing my point it was clearly a fault in the Trainline app. The two of them stood around and were almost ganging up on me for something that was genuine. His colleague who wasn't even the one who scanned my tickets kept inputting comments which I felt were unneccesary. He kept butting in adding his opinion saying "well you wouldn't exit a shop without paying." Almost telling me off like a school child whilst explaining my situation. They continued to press on something I was clearly genuine on and even denied my requests of speaking to their senior who I know is aware of issues with the machine at the boarding station as this has been mentioned by plenty of people in the past.

At this point I'd had enough of the way I was being treated and retaliated saying if they didn't stop their tone and attitude I would have no choice but to log a complaint. The conductor said "I dont like people that make threats therefore I am definitely now issuing you a penalty" even though this was clearly not a threat as I am more than entitled to log this as a complaint if I do not feel it was handled in a proffessional manor. Given their tone I did not feel it was. This also rubbed me uo the wrong way as was he indicating he wouldn't have done it if I never said that and was considering otherwise?

All of this caused a scene on the train and due to my anxiety caused me to have a panic attack. This was a genuine mistake and it's due to their services it happened in the first place as otherwise I wouldn't have to rely on Trainline, the wifi, etc. It was clear from the evidence I gave them that I was not dodging the fare and they were treating me like a criminal. It almost felt like bullying tactics as they knew I was an easy target.

To make this even worse after this occurs they both sit down near me. One sits opposite, the other sits on the seat next to it on the other section. I do not see how this needed two conductors especially when his colleague was very rude and kept inputting his opinion which I found very patronising.


My parner explains as this attack is happening that I have anxiety and autism so I am clearly a vulnerable customer. He didn't comment further on this but at this point my partner witnessed the colleague not issuing the fine rolling his eyes with a smirk on his face. I quite frankly find this disgusting and even discriminatory. The person issuing me the penalty did explain everything and even begins recording me.

The trouble here is, it wasn't until he was recording me that his colleague who was still loitering and not checking anyone else, doesn't input any comments and suddenly the evidence I am providing is addressed and the questions are answered. I even showed the recording that it was my trainline app as it proceeded to do it again. This was met with a very abrupt "it's a third party app but I do understand Trainline can be unreliable". The trouble here is I brought this up multiple times before and it was ignored so maybe the scene could've been a lot less if they weren't treating myself like a criminal and actually had compassion like he was once the camera was rolling. Clearly this proves they both knew the way they were acting was wrong.

I just wanted to ask, is this a normal way conductors treat their customers? Should i approach customer relations or the rail ombudsman? I've only ever seen when issuing a penalty one conductor goes off only if they're being aggressive maybe they'd need two but I was clearly distressed not aggressive. This also would've never occured if it was one person and they were polite and compassionate. I hate being crowded around and these two were clearly making a more of a scene this way. I would also like to add that even on the recording I asked for customer relations number and they did not give this to me. Surely this is against their duty? I

 

[flashberry43]

What exactly is the issue here? You appear to open up conversation with the inspector in a very hostile way saying you'll make a complaint to them (or about them)... and they respond by giving a penalty fare (which arguably is a better outcome than a travel irregularity report).

Am I right in reading between the lines you boarded a train without a valid ticket? Then bought a ticket when on the train after it had departed?

What I don't understand is that if the tramline app failed in your original purchase, how did you get on the platform, and through the barriers in the first place?

Is it not simple common sense after you purchase train tickets to open them up - not least to get through the barriers? If the purchase never went through you couldn't have possibly opened up the tickets after purchase in the first place.

 

[akaMcMonagle]

As far as I’m aware, it is the passengers responsibility to make sure they have access to tickets before they board and whilst they are on board any service. It would be advisable to check all tickets are present and working before you do board a train.
As for the behaviour I can’t comment on that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Were you actually penalty fared? If so, when was this? How long after the purchase of the ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They go around in twos because people like to assault them. If you came across as angry, whether that was caused by your autism or otherwise, they will have feared the possibility of this.

I don't understand why anyone wouldn't check the transaction had completed before boarding the train. Personally I always put them on the Apple Wallet after I purchase, that way that acts as confirmation, but you could do something as simple as look for the confirmation email which proves the transaction worked.

Meanwhile you'll probably have to pay this Penalty Fare (and it's far better than they could have done), but if you want to post all the documentation with all personal details/reference numbers redacted we can have a look to see if there are any errors in its issue that might lead to a successful appeal on a technicality.

 

[TheCardinal]

The station I boarded at has no barriers. It was only when I boarded the train and went to open up the ticket it loaded as an error and said payment failed. I purchased a ticket where I boarded from as I unknowingly boarded without the ticket going through. As i say this is why I am much more comfortable with paper tickets but the machine doesn't work and there is no booth to purchase it from.

Also I wasn't hostile at all, it was actually them who acted hostile first. I was veey polite and explaining my situation in a civilised manor. I've worked in customer service for 10 years and if at any job I approached someone as standoffish or patronising as they did I'd most likely be sacked. I have also seen on this train service people purchasing tickets from them whilst on board so this caught me by surprise they acted this way in the first place.

 

[methecooldude]

I was issued a penalty fare this week on a matter which I believe was very unfair and even presented evidence on the matter. I won't go into too much detail but I am far more comfortable purchasing tickets from the machine but sadly due to past issues with the touchscreen not working or the machine not even being turned on I have to rely on the online ticket system. I faced an issue with the trainline app where my payment didn't go through even when it said that it said it was succesful. When i went to view my tickets this failed leading me to have to purchase onboard as I unknowingly boarded the train without one. I am autistic and prefer having something printed so I am always uneasy about technology but this is the first issue I've ever faced with Trainline.

If you could upload a suitability redacted copy of the Penalty Fare notice, we can check it. That being said, it is your responsibility to make sure you have a valid ticket before boarding.

I accept how this looks but the train conductors (specifically one of them) I believe acted very unprofessionally. Long story short, I was approached by the two conductors whilst sat on the train. When asked about my ticket I explained the situation and even provided valid evidence. My partner who I boarded with payment did go through and was purchased on time and I even showed them the evidence. Most ticket conductors are usually aware of the issues with these machines and when I've had no choice but to collect tickets they are usually very understanding and just say to collect when I'm off at my connection. This is an inconvenience anyway but I digress.

I assume by conductors, you refer to Revenue Protection inspectors.

These two conductors patronised me even when presenting them with evidence. One of them even connected to the train wifi intentionally missing my point it was clearly a fault in the Trainline app. The two of them stood around and were almost ganging up on me for something that was genuine. His colleague who wasn't even the one who scanned my tickets kept inputting comments which I felt were unneccesary. He kept butting in adding his opinion saying "well you wouldn't exit a shop without paying." Almost telling me off like a school child whilst explaining my situation. They continued to press on something I was clearly genuine on and even denied my requests of speaking to their senior who I know is aware of issues with the machine at the boarding station as this has been mentioned by plenty of people in the past.

Unfortunately, there is a fine line between a 'genuine mistake' and someone who knows what they are doing. The Trainline app is not the responsibility of the railway, and you should complain to Trainline if you feel the app has let you down.

At this point I'd had enough of the way I was being treated and retaliated saying if they didn't stop their tone and attitude I would have no choice but to log a complaint. The conductor said "I dont like people that make threats therefore I am definitely now issuing you a penalty" even though this was clearly not a threat as I am more than entitled to log this as a complaint if I do not feel it was handled in a proffessional manor. Given their tone I did not feel it was. This also rubbed me uo the wrong way as was he indicating he wouldn't have done it if I never said that and was considering otherwise?

And they are more than entitled to give you a penalty fare for not being able to show a valid ticket. They also can let you off, or report you for prosecution... "The [customer] doth protest too much, methinks" comes to mind, which is potentially why they made the decision they did

All of this caused a scene on the train and due to my anxiety caused me to have a panic attack. This was a genuine mistake and it's due to their services it happened in the first place as otherwise I wouldn't have to rely on Trainline, the wifi, etc. It was clear from the evidence I gave them that I was not dodging the fare and they were treating me like a criminal. It almost felt like bullying tactics as they knew I was an easy target.

You already knew that the touchscreen at your station plays up, and potentially a complaint to customer service will get this fixed, however is there a ticket office at the station you could have used? Could you have purchased the tickets at home before heading to the station on a known good connection?

To make this even worse after this occurs they both sit down near me. One sits opposite, the other sits on the seat next to it on the other section. I do not see how this needed two conductors especially when his colleague was very rude and kept inputting his opinion which I found very patronising.

Revenue Protection staff tend to work in pairs as they are the bearers of bad news and are regularly abused/attacked. Safety in numbers and all that.

My parner explains as this attack is happening that I have anxiety and autism so I am clearly a vulnerable customer. He didn't comment further on this but at this point my partner witnessed the colleague not issuing the fine rolling his eyes with a smirk on his face. I quite frankly find this disgusting and even discriminatory. The person issuing me the penalty did explain everything and even begins recording me.

And until that point, they did not know this, railway staff are not mind readers. The recording was to link to the PF to make sure you can't use the 'it wasn't me' excuse.

What I don't understand is that if the tramline app failed in your original purchase, how did you get on the platform, and through the barriers in the first place?

Not every station has barriers

 

[TheCardinal]

Were you actually penalty fared?

I was penalty fared on this occasion.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was penalty fared on this occasion.

Please upload a copy of it with your details redacted. Also, what time did you purchase your ticket exactly?

You have come across revenue protection inspectors, not conductors; that is why you've been penalty fared.

 

[akaMcMonagle]

It was only when I boarded the train and went to open up the ticket it loaded as an error and said payment failed. I purchased a ticket where I boarded from as I unknowingly boarded without the ticket going through.

Unfortunately, you should have checked the ticket you purchased before you boarded to make sure that it was active and working.

 

[TheCardinal]

Please upload a copy of it with your details redacted. Also, what time did you purchase your ticket exactly?

You have come across revenue protection inspectors, not conductors; that is why you've been penalty fared.

This is what I was issued at the time. My ticket was purchased about 15 minutes into the journey when I realised but I was going to a station with barriers so I couldn't evade the fare anyway. I'll attach the image of what I was issued.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also I wasn't hostile at all, it was actually them who acted hostile first. I was veey polite and explaining my situation in a civilised manor. I've worked in customer service for 10 years and if at any job I approached someone as standoffish or patronising as they did I'd most likely be sacked. I have also seen on this train service people purchasing tickets from them whilst on board so this caught me by surprise they acted this way in the first place.

RPIs aren't customer service staff, they are more a form of security guard dealing mostly with transgressors, which whether intentional or not you are. If you were issued with a Penalty Fare the person you met was not the "regular" guard as guards do not issue Penalty Fares.

Usually if "it's a fair cop", which it is, being polite, compliant and apologetic gets the best outcomes.

It's best to get in the habit of checking your ticket has downloaded correctly before boarding a train. As I said, I do this by always adding to the Apple wallet immediately after purchase - if it hadn't gone through that wouldn't be possible, and it's easier to show it there than faffing about with an app.

 

[TheCardinal]

RPIs aren't customer service staff, they are more a form of security guard dealing mostly with transgressors, which whether intentional or not you are. If you were issued with a Penalty Fare the person you met was not the "regular" guard as guards do not issue Penalty Fares.

Usually if "it's a fair cop", which it is, being polite, compliant and apologetic gets the best outcomes.

It's best to get in the habit of checking your ticket has downloaded correctly before boarding a train. As I said, I do this by always adding to the Apple wallet immediately after purchase - if it hadn't gone through that wouldn't be possible, and it's easier to show it there than faffing about with an app.

You see, I wasn't aware of this and definitely will in the future. I know it was a slipup on my part but I just don't think it's fair having to rely on apps which clearly have unrealiability than just going to a machine. I'll definitely raise this though as a concern because it should be fixed.

 

[island]

I have also seen on this train service people purchasing tickets from them whilst on board so this caught me by surprise they acted this way in the first place.

A number of stations on that line have no, or card-only ticketing facilities so those paying on board may be entitled to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You see, I wasn't aware of this and definitely will in the future. I know it was a slipup on my part but I just don't think it's fair having to rely on apps which clearly have unrealiability than just going to a machine. I'll definitely raise this though as a concern because it should be fixed.

I have never had a problem of that nature with the Trainline app, but nothing on a mobile phone is 100%, the signal could drop out or your card could decline (as it sometimes might randomly do at a TVM).

It is simply the case that you should have checked that the transaction completed before you boarded the train and not assumed it did. That is your responsibility and nobody else's. If there was then no way to buy a ticket there (the TVM was broken, ticket office closed AND online wasn't working at all or you didn't want to use it) you could simply board and would not have been penalised.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

A number of stations on that line have no, or card-only ticketing facilities so those paying on board may be entitled to do so.

And note you can pay on board if your chosen method of payment isn't accepted at the station (aside from AmEx which I think some TOCs don't accept at all), but you can never pay on board via an app because you could have done it before boarding if you wanted to pay that way.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I am far more comfortable purchasing tickets from the machine but sadly due to past issues with the touchscreen not working or the machine not even being turned on I have to rely on the online ticket system

I am much more comfortable with paper tickets but the machine doesn't work and there is no booth to purchase it from.

Did you actually check the machine was working on the day?

 

[TheCardinal]

Did you actually check the machine was working on the day?

Not on this particular day due to being unaware I hadn't got a ticket. I usually do check them and regularly have to pickup tickets from the machine if going beyond London. I have proof that multiple times I have had to collect at the crossover station due to their unreliability.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have proof that multiple times I have had to collect at the crossover station due to their unreliability.

What proof do you have of this?

This is what I was issued at the time. My ticket was purchased about 15 minutes into the journey

What time exactly? And which train were you on?

It's important to any potential appeal.

when I realised but I was going to a station with barriers so I couldn't evade the fare anyway.

Yes you can. You can either not purchase any ticket at all until the last moment, and then buy a short fare, or you can do the Oyster/contactless trick at Stratford to tap in to the TfL network and "disappear" having never bought a ticket for your journey on Greater Anglia. That's why the RPIs are on this route.

And note you can pay on board if your chosen method of payment isn't accepted at the station (aside from AmEx which I think some TOCs don't accept at all), but you can never pay on board via an app because you could have done it before boarding if you wanted to pay that way.

That isn't true. It's not an offence to buy on board using an app.

The relevant offence is Bylaw 18 (1):

in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

if any of the following (reasonably common) defences apply, you can board without a ticket. In these circumstances it's fine to buy using an app:

no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

1. there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
2. there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
3. an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

 

[TheCardinal]

What proof do you have of this?


What time exactly? And which train were you on?

It's important to any potential appeal.


Yes you can. You can either not purchase any ticket at all until the last moment, and then buy a short fare, or you can do the Oyster/contactless trick at Stratford to tap in to the TfL network and "disappear" having never bought a ticket for your journey on Greater Anglia. That's why the RPIs are on this route.


That isn't true. It's not an offence to buy on board using an app.

The relevant offence is Bylaw 18 (1):

in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

if any of the following (reasonably common) defences apply, you can board without a ticket. In these circumstances it's fine to buy using an app:

no person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

1. there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
2. there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
3. an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

The proof i have for collecting at the crossover is the ticket references. I'm pretty sure they can trace where/when they are collected unless I am mistaken.

The train I was on was the 09:04 and I got a ticket a bit later than I thought it was at 09:28.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The proof i have for collecting at the crossover is the ticket references. I'm pretty sure they can trace where/when they are collected unless I am mistaken.

The train I was on was the 09:04 and I got a ticket a bit later than I thought it was at 09:28.

What time was the penalty fares issued? It's obscured in the image you've posted.

 

[TheCardinal]

What time was the penalty fares issued? It's obscured in the image you've posted.

It was issued at 09:47.

 

[AdamWW]

And note you can pay on board if your chosen method of payment isn't accepted at the station (aside from AmEx which I think some TOCs don't accept at all), but you can never pay on board via an app because you could have done it before boarding if you wanted to pay that way.

I think that is incorrect advice. If I board a train at a station with no ticket purchasing facilities and then buy one on the train on-line, what offence have I committed?

And there is in any case the possibility that due to lack of mobile signal and wifi it may not have been possible to purchase on-line at the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that is incorrect advice. If I board a train at a station with no ticket purchasing facilities and then buy one on the train on-line, what offence have I committed?

I don't know if it's been tested in Court to be honest. However it is still ill-advised to buy an e-ticket after departure as it's clear from previous threads on here that that is often pursued as fraudulent by TOCs. If you are on a station and want to pay on your phone, pay there and then before boarding and make it muscle memory to check that the ticket was downloaded. It is likely you will at least have to fend off a prosecution if caught doing it on board, and nobody wants the hassle of a Court case even if they would win it.

The best advice is therefore this - if, by your chosen method of purchase (i.e. phone vs. paper ticket) and payment, the ticket can be purchased before boarding, then you should do so, and furthermore if there's a TVM or booking office you must use that if your phone isn't working even if you wanted to use your phone. (You are not obliged to use your phone even if you have it and it is working, though).

Legal technicalities do not change how sensible this advice is.

Edit: If the OP could prove the TVM was broken on the day of travel, then I guess this means the PF may be appealable if they proactively repurchased after boarding, though?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

And there is in any case the possibility that due to lack of mobile signal and wifi it may not have been possible to purchase on-line at the station.

In that case if a TVM/booking office is present and working then you must use that. If there isn't one, then you can purchase at the first opportunity, but given how TOCs are interpreting phone purchases on board it's probably best to buy a paper ticket at the first opportunity if that happens. Regardless of legalities you don't want the hassle of fending off a potential prosecution or Penalty Fare.

 

[sheff1]

I won't go into too much detail but I am far more comfortable purchasing tickets from the machine but sadly due to past issues with the touchscreen not working or the machine not even being turned on I have to rely on the online ticket system.

You do not need to rely on the online ticket system. If the ticket machine at the station is not working, and there is no ticket office, you are entitled to buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity, which could be from the guard on the train (if there is one and they come round) or at your destination station.

People recommend you take a photo/video of the non-working machine but there is no absolute requirement to do so.

 

[Hadders]

There are two issues at play here:

1. The failed ticket purchase. Legally speaking you are required to possess a ticket for you journey before you board the train (there are some caveats as noted above, but we cannot be certain that the TVM wasn't working on this occasion as @TheCardinal did not check). However unintentional it is your requirement to make sure you possess the correct ticket and a Penalty Fare is an appsopriate remedy for this situation and my recommendation is to pay the penalty fare to prevent the matter from escalating.
2. The behaviour of the RPI. This is a separate issue and I would encourage you to make a complaint to customer services once the Penalty Fare has been dealt with.

There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare might be invalid. I will let other forum members advise on this but any appeal on a technicality would need to be written using a very precise legalistic form of wording and is unlikely to succeed until a stage 3 appeal.

 

[island]

(aside from AmEx which I think some TOCs don't accept at all)

All TOCs are meant to accept Amex. There were localised issues with it being accepted via contactless, or at all, in places, but I think they're settled now.

However it is still ill-advised to buy an e-ticket after departure as it's clear from previous threads on here that that is often pursued as fraudulent by TOCs.

Indeed. Whilst a byelaw offence cannot be committed if there are no ticketing facilities at one's starting station, the act of buying a ticket shortly before an inspection may tend to suggest an intent to "pay only when challenged" which can result in being investigated for a Regulation of Railways Act offence.

People recommend you take a photo/video of the non-working machine but there is no absolute requirement to do so.

If a byelaw 18 case gets to court, it is the passenger who bears the burden of proving the ticketing facilities were not in working order.

 

[TheCardinal]

Thank you for the advice from everyone on here, it's actually been very helpful. This entire situation has been very stressful for me and definitely a position I never thought I'd be given that I've always followed the rules.

This debt keeps replaying on my mind, I just wanted to ask if I repay it now would it have an affect on the validity of the appeal or stop me from appealing again?

 

[Hadders]

There isn't a debt as things currently stand.

You've been issued with a Penalty Fare which costs £126. If it is paid within 21-days then you pay a reduced amount of £76.

You are entitled to appeal, up to three times if you want. If you submit an appeal the clock stops on the 21-days you have to pay at the reduced rate and starts again once the appeal is determined.

Clearly, if you don't pay the Penalty Fare then the train company could take action to recover the money from you via the courts.

 

[Pushpit]

Another reason for appealing the Penalty Fare is that the rail company is then statute barred from prosecuting you, and therefore prevents a criminal record. You can pay the £76 reduced amount at the end of the appeal process, or any time before then, it will be refunded if your appeal is successful. However it's important to stick to the deadlines for appeals, and mostly the first appeal always fails regardless of the merits.

I think I would encourage you to do that, though unfortunately the poor experience you had is separate from the ticketing issue, not least the very long gap between boarding the train and purchase. So I would be surprised if the appeal works. However it is a mechanism for recording your unhappiness with the staff member concerned, which you can then follow up separately to the appeal process. It is perfectly possible to have a professional approach to fare evasion, it's almost certainly more efficient use of staff time too, if they avoid a confrontation. Given you have an autism diagnosis, one of the features of that diagnosis is knowing how to avoid triggers - and clearly having the correct ticket before travel should be on your radar now, as I'm sure it is.