Unpaid fare notice help!

[bb121]

Hi guys,

I'd very much appreciate some advice from anyone who has knowledge of unpaid fare notices as I feel I was wrongly issued one, or at the least I was issued one unfairly.

I was travelling on an East Coast train last weekend from Newcastle [[stn]NCL[/stn]] to London Kings Cross [[stn]KGX[/stn]].

I had purchased an advanced single ticket for £24.85 on railcard.
When I got to newcastle station I put my card into the machines and tried to enter my reference number but each time i did it kept giving me an error saying it couldn't process or print my ticket.
It did not say reference number not recognised, specifically that there was an error. I tried this a number of times and was 100% using the correct payment card and reference number as I had the email on my phone at the time reading from it.

I couldnt get the ticket to print and at risk of missing the train I got on with the intention of explaining and showing the email and sorting it out with the ticket guy.

He didn't believe that there were any issues with the ticket machines and said he'd come back.
When he did, he said the best thing for him to do would be to issue me an UFN so that I can ge through the barriers at London and then all I have to do is call up to get it sorted out later on.

I now realise he probably knowingly deceived me, as I cannot sort this out on the phone and this is much more a serious matter than he made out.

I had no intention of avoiding paying a fair. I had a valid ticket and through no fault of my own, couldn't print it out to show on the train.
At easily 50 train journeys a year, I have never dodged a fare and intend not to do so in the future.

This is really annoying me and I'd really appreciate some advice on how to deal with this and dispute this charge. The cost of this one ticket is £121, I made 6 separate journeys around the country for less than this recently!

If anyone can advice, I'd really appreciate it.

Many thanks!

 

[Anon Mouse]

you did not have a valid ticket as you had failed to collect your ticket from the machine. The outcome might have been different if you had of went into the ticket office or made a point of talking to the Guard before you boarded. I don't think you have been decived by the Guard as you can appeal against the issuie of your UFN and the UFN replaced your ticket as a travel document to allow you to complete your journey. The Guard will on a daily basis get passengers coming out with a line similar to "what it is right", "the machine was not working", "The man at the station said". Sadly some of the people who come out with these lines are not always being honest and its difficult for the guard to judge. I'm surprised he did not offer you to buy a new SDS and to claim the money back from EC (which is policy for the TOC I work for) or did he suggest this and you were unable to pay for it hence the UFN? (personally I would have done a TIR if you were unable to pay the full SDS and reported the facts given to myself, in doing a TIR you would have been given a zero fare ticket to get you through the barriers)

 

[transportphoto]

One of the first things I suggest you do is to collect the ticket. Head to your nearest TOD Enabled station and get the ticket, it doesn't matter that the journey has already been made, you can use the fact that the tickets were not being used by another person (by fact that they hadn't yet been issued) to support an appeal, however, in my opinion the UPFN has been correctly issued as you did not have a valid ticket to travel on your person, and you were trying to use a document that most probably says its not valid for travel for travel. How many ticket machines did you try before boarding the train?

TP

 

[bb121]

What should I do with the ticket once printed?

Also, the notice says I have to pay within 10 days and appeal within 10 days. Why do I have to pay even when I'm appealing? I've not heard of this in any other legal dispute, usually charges are held until the dispute is sorted out?

Thankfully I paid on an amex so I'll at least be getting my money back for the ticket they wouldn't let me print. But to be liable for the UFN just seems criminal to me. It gives the consumer no leg to stand on in any situation. It seems win win win win for the trains but lose only for the customer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anon, no he didn't offer me anything else. He went right to the UFN as first option, never spoke to me about any other options.

 

[transportphoto]

If you wish to appeal, the tickets will assist as evidence that another person wasn't using them to travel - they will contain details of exactly when and where they were issued.

TP

 

[bb121]

Ok that makes sense.
If I dont print them though, they'll also be able to see that they were never printed? As someone would need my card before they're able to print the tickets anyway right?

My worry is, that they'll not be able to know, or outright lie about there not being a problem with the machines on the day...

 

[transportphoto]

It could be anything, from dirt on the chip of your card to a communication error between the ticket machine(s -?) and the database. I would obtain the tickets as at least this way you can prove they weren't used, rather than quoting reference numbers. I'd get the tickets and get a photocopy of them before sending them off with the appeal, if this is the route you wish to go down.

TP

 

[maniacmartin]

I wouldn't advising doing a chargeback on the Amex card and at the same time appealling, as the chargeback could well undermine your appeal.

Also, East Coast don't serve Llandanwg (LDN) as far as I'm aware. I presume this was actually a service to London Kings Cross

 

[BrianTheLion]

One of the first things I suggest you do is to collect the ticket. Head to your nearest TOD Enabled station and get the ticket, it doesn't matter that the journey has already been made, you can use the fact that the tickets were not being used by another person (by fact that they hadn't yet been issued) to support an appeal, however, in my opinion the UPFN has been correctly issued as you did not have a valid ticket to travel on your person, and you were trying to use a document that most probably says its not valid for travel for travel. How many ticket machines did you try before boarding the train?

TP

One of my pals had a similar issue, incidentally at Newcastle also. At the time he just bought new tickets but was advised by a mutual friend along the lines of what transportphoto said.

When the ticket is printed it will say the print date on it, so obviously you can then prove they weren't used by another person thus adding weight to your claim.

The other thing to consider though is you need to understand why the EC staff would be dubious, after all Newcastle has a lot of self service machines and also a lot of manned windows so the argument there is "did you try another machine?", they would probably also not accept that you turned up within a couple of mins before your departure time especially for a train to London, they will probably assume that you had "ample opportunity" to try and retrieve the ticket from another machine or a manned window.

I believe you have a valid explanation but I can also see a little grief on the horizon for you too...

good luck

 

[Anon Mouse]

and again a chat with the Guard before boarding might have halped rather than getting on and waiting for the Guard to come down. A UFN is a correct route to deal with a passenger not having a valid ticket. You said no other options were offered, would you have paid the £121 fare if offered? I suspect this was offered and declined, there is no other reason why a UFN would be issuied from the outset unless the conversation hinted to no funds/invalid card/no means of payment.

 

[Dave1987]

Indeed the guard did you a favour by issuing an UPFN. I would do exactly as transportphoto has suggested and go and get your tickets from the booking office then appeal it by submitting your tickets as evidence and an explanation of what happened. They should rescind the UPFN then and all will be sorted.

 

[bb121]

Hi guys thanks for the advice.

Anon, no, the conversation went "here's the email proof", "sorry that's not a valid ticket", then he said he'd be right back and came back saying "only thing I can do is give you an UFN". So no, £121 was not offered before the UFN.

I'll do as advised and appeal this thing.

 

[W230]

Anon, no, the conversation went "here's the email proof", "sorry that's not a valid ticket", then he said he'd be right back and came back saying "only thing I can do is give you an UFN". So no, £121 was not offered before the UFN.

I'm sure you can see this from EC point of view - an email proves nothing - it can be forwarded on to whoever and could be doctored. I appreciate it can be difficult but imagine the number of excuses they hear on a day to day basis.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Last time I booked a ticket with East Coast the email clearly stated that it was not a valid ticket and without the ticket a new ticket would need to be purchased.

The staff guidelines state:

If a customer has boarded a train without a ticket and claims that he/she attempted to collect a ToD booking for the current journey, then the following steps should be taken unless local instructions apply:

1.Sell the customer a new ticket.

2.Tell the customer that if they wish to claim a refund for the replacement ticket, they should contact the seller from whom they purchased their ToD.

As far as I recall East Coast's UPFNs are handled by Revenue Protection Support Services. The general guidance is:

Whilst you were not issued with a penalty fare, you have been issued with an unpaid fare notice when you travelled because you were unable to produce a valid ticket for inspection when requested. This has nothing to do with any intention you may have had and is not a fine. It is merely a notice to pay the amount due for the journey that you actually made when you could not present a valid ticket in accordance with The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 para 5.1. (see document library for details) The NRCOC explains the validities of tickets and the passenger's rights with regard to refunds on any unused or invalid tickets.

Appeals against unpaid fares must be submitted within the timescales and in writing to the appeals address shown on the front of the Unpaid Fares Notice. Any outstanding payment shown on the notice must be paid within the timescales and in accordance with the instructions on the notice.
...
Unpaid fares notices (UFN) are very different from penalty fares notices and make no extra charge, penalty or fine in the first instance. The amount outstanding shown on the UFN is only the correct fare for the actual journey that has been made. Simply, the passenger has completed their journey and now has a bill to pay because a valid ticket was not available for inspection when they travelled.

There are always mitigating circumstances for not having a valid ticket and while these may be compelling, they tend to be irrelevant to the facts of a UFN strict liabilty matter. Any appeal would therefore need to prove that the ticket shown when travelling was actually valid for the exact journey which was made. Even producing a valid ticket or railcard later does not negate liabilty to pay the UFN bill for not producing a valid ticket when requested at the time of travel.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage set out the conditions for judging any appeal and you will find a link on the Library page.
...
Even if you have appealed, the debt recovery action will continue and administration fees become due if you do not pay the full amount owing within the time specified. If your appeal is successful, then a refund will be made of any fares amount overpaid.
...
Please be aware that making an appeal does not mean that payment of any amount outstanding is suspended. Debt recovery action is separate from any appeal and administration fees may be incurred if full payment is not made within the time specified.

 

[snail]

Based on that instruction it sounds like the best action is to pay the £121 to satisfy the UFN then claim that amount from East Coast as a consequence of the ToD machine failure.

I'm not sure how confident I would be of getting my money back though if it was me. That's why I always try to collect ToD tickets as soon as possible after booking.

 

[bb121]

Thanks for the advice guys.
At the least i'll be charging back my original ticket that didn't print out if this ends in a lost appeal for me.

 

[Dave1987]

Thanks for the advice guys.
At the least i'll be charging back my original ticket that didn't print out if this ends in a lost appeal for me.

Very best of luck to you!!

 

[142094]

Couple of questions:

1) The TOD collection machines are located right next to the ticket office at the station - did you not ask a member of staff for assistance?

2) Were the ticket barriers operating at the time at Newcastle?

3) If the answer to 2) is yes, how did you get through the barrier without either showing a ticket or talking to a member of staff.

 

[island]

Thanks for the advice guys.
At the least i'll be charging back my original ticket that didn't print out if this ends in a lost appeal for me.

I would be surprised if your issuing bank permits you to raise a chargeback.

 

[SussexMan]

Some people have suggested that the OP should have asked the guard before boarding. How would that have helped? I can't see the guard saying "go and ask at the ticket office - I'll hold the train until you get back". Would the guard really have said "that's OK, jump on". If the OP had missed the booked train then that might have created another set of problems. I'm just not sure how asking the guard could have helped.

In future I would strongly advise you to take a photo of the message on the ticket machine. It sounds like you had a smart phone as you were reading your email on the phone so I'm guessing you could have taken a picture. In itself it isn't proof but it could only help.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Some people have suggested that the OP should have asked the guard before boarding. How would that have helped? I can't see the guard saying "go and ask at the ticket office - I'll hold the train until you get back". Would the guard really have said "that's OK, jump on". If the OP had missed the booked train then that might have created another set of problems. I'm just not sure how asking the guard could have helped.

I am a Guard on a TOC and I greatly appreciate passengers who have a problem coming up to me before boarding and telling me whats up. Of course I will not be able to 'hold the train' but I might be able to come up with a solution. I will be much more willing to use my discretion if somebody comes to speak to me rather than just jumping on. Some Guards, upon being told about this Guy's problem might have said "just jump on mate" but if they feel (and I am not saying this is what he has done) that he has just jumped on and hoping for the Guard to be lenient/let him off then the same Guard may very well do a TIR or UFN.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Something that people seem to forget is THAT WE ARE HERE TO HELP. We are also human and do understand that things go wrong, mistakes are made and that some people may be stuck with no money. We are more likely to help someone out and even let them off if they speak to us first. Yes, we may follow ticketing to the letter but there is a chance we will try and help somebody if the make the effort to let us know. I can also confirm that loads of Guards will let people off on this kind of thing and sometimes we may get told to accept passengers unable to pick up tickets if there is a problem with the machines or if the system is down.

 

[Flamingo]

To echo Anon Mouse, as I have said many times before, if somebody comes up to me, I'll try to help, if I find them, they have to persuade me they're not a fare evader ( and I've heard them all before).

 

[SussexMan]

Flamingo and Anon Mouse - thank you for your replies. As a traveller and not a guard I know I would be thinking, do I get on the train and try and resolve it or do I miss the train and try and resolve it. To the passenger it's going to feel a little catch 22. Board the train knowing you "have" a valid ticket (but it isn't on you and it is stuck in a machine) or miss the train knowing your ticket then won't be valid (assuming it is an Advance).

Guards have certain duties at stations and I would have thought that you probably don't want a queue of people coming to you with queries in the 1 minute you've got at the station. Unless you are suggesting that people board and then come and find you?

I guess the moral of the story is if at all possible leave loads of time to pick up your ticket (or pick it up the previous day etc).

 

[michael769]

I would be surprised if your issuing bank permits you to raise a chargeback.

It is not their choice to make. They are jointly liable for the failure to fulfill the contract. I'm sure the Financial Ombudsman will be happy to remind them of that if they fail to assist.

 

[Flamingo]

Flamingo and Anon Mouse - thank you for your replies. As a traveller and not a guard I know I would be thinking, do I get on the train and try and resolve it or do I miss the train and try and resolve it. To the passenger it's going to feel a little catch 22. Board the train knowing you "have" a valid ticket (but it isn't on you and it is stuck in a machine) or miss the train knowing your ticket then won't be valid (assuming it is an Advance).

Guards have certain duties at stations and I would have thought that you probably don't want a queue of people coming to you with queries in the 1 minute you've got at the station. Unless you are suggesting that people board and then come and find you?

I guess the moral of the story is if at all possible leave loads of time to pick up your ticket (or pick it up the previous day etc).

If people board and then find the guard immediately they have finished their station duties, that's fine in my book. (Worst case scenario is a ticket to the next station). Obviously, if it is the start of the journey there should be more time to sort it out before boarding.

You are right though, the number of people who produce a phone or random number on a scrap of paper and say "I didn't have time, you can look it up for me now" is very high. Our instructions are to issue a UFN and tell them to sort it out with customer services, as we have no way of knowing what the hell this number on a scrap of paper is (and it was turning into a favourite fare-dodgers scam).

 

[island]

It is not their choice to make. They are jointly liable for the failure to fulfill the contract. I'm sure the Financial Ombudsman will be happy to remind them of that if they fail to assist.

That's incorrect. The price of the ticket was £24.85. Joint liability applies to purchases between £100 and £30,000 on credit cards. Assistance for debit and charge cards and amounts outside the above parameters is entirely at the bank's discretion.

 

[michael769]

That's incorrect. The price of the ticket was £24.85. Joint liability applies to purchases between £100 and £30,000 on credit cards. Assistance for debit and charge cards and amounts outside the above parameters is entirely at the bank's discretion.

Those limits are only applicable to statutory claims under Sect. 75 of the Consumer Credit Act.

Claims under Chargeback are not subject to the same limits: information from Visa but Mastercard and Amex also operate similar schemes. Although Chargeback is a voluntary scheme in the sense that it is not backed by statute, it is subject to binding agreements with the Financial Ombudsman who has powers to enforce payment. Note that claims must be logged with the card issuer no later than 120 days after the contract was agreed.

 

[island]

Do you have a source for that please?

 

[michael769]

Do you have a source for that please?

See the information sheet from Visa linked in the post.

Additional information from the Consumers Society

The main differences from S.75 are:

* The S.75 lower and upper limits do not apply
* The scheme applies to both debit and credit cars
* Chargeback cannot be used to recover money if the vendor goes bust.

 

[island]

I mean for the suggestion that this agreement between Visa and card issuers will be enforced by the FOS as against a financial services firm. I know about chargebacks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
"You can take it to the FOS" is vacuously true. I've looked through the FOS's own website and it has plenty about section 75 claims and zero about chargebacks. Indeed, it specifically refused a claim by a consumer for a purchase that was eligible for chargeback but outside the monetary limits for s75.

Additionally, if the passenger voluntarily pays the UPFN, it muddies the waters further.