Unpaid Fare issue

[MIJOHNSON]

So a month or two ago I bought an advance return to London from Leeds.

On my return journey from London, I was delayed on the underground (which of course is irrelevant) however I missed my booked train, naievely I assumed I was still legible to travel but with no seat reservation, so took the next train.

I was informed that this was not the case by a revenue inspector just outside of Newark.

My details were taken and then I was asked for £130+ of course I couldnt pay that up front, (note I didn't get chance to sign the form as we were arriving in newark station and was asked to leave the train, for the record I was completely civil, didnt swear , didnt raise my voice) so I exit the train at newark. I then paid for, and took a different journey on a different train from newark to sheffield.

I have since received a request to pay the full amount for journey London to Leeds (£130+), however I believe I should surely only be liable for London to Newark (roughly £70), which I am of course happy to pay as it was an honest mistake on my part that i accept i am liable for?

 

[lyesbkz]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I presume you were travelling on an East Coast service from King's Cross, where penalty fares are not in operation. Therefore it is my understanding that you should be required to pay full Single fare between your origin and wherever you can next alight the service (since you say you alighted at Newark, it is my understanding that you'd need to pay for a London Terminals - Newark single, at £70.00).

There's no need for you to pay for the remainder of the journey from Newark to Leeds if you didn't travel on it, so they shouldn't be asking for the full cost (£119.50), as long as you made it clear on any paperwork that your journey was London Kings Cross to Newark. I'm not sure where you've taken the £130+ fare from, as an Anytime Single London-LDS is £119.50.

However I'm guessing that if you filled the form in and said you were travelling London - Leeds then they have automatically calculated that fare and there's probably not a great deal you could do about it.

 

[MIJOHNSON]

hi lyesbkz, thanks for your response.

As you have correctly guessed the information was noted down as London - Leeds, due to me showing my original ticket. However I never signed to agree this was the case (if that counts for anything).

I can also prove i was not on the train after newark, having purchased a ticket within newark station at least 15 minutes after the train left the station.

from my bank statement

14 Mar 2011 POS 1049 13MAR11 , EC MAINLINE CO T/O, NEWARK 6499 GB

Would that be valid enough?

 

[LexyBoy]

- Do you still have the ticket you bought for the Newark-Leeds journey?

- What caused your Underground delay? If it was due to significant disruption on the part of the Underground, then it definitely isn't irrelevant and you would normally be allowed to travel on the next available train (though in this case it's always best to have your ticket endorsed at the station - it may be necessary for staff to check with TfL that your delay was their fault and not just you being late).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....What caused your Underground delay? If it was due to significant disruption on the part of the Underground, then it definitely isn't irrelevant and you would normally be allowed to travel on the next available train (though in this case it's always best to have your ticket endorsed at the station - it may be necessary for staff to check with TfL that your delay was their fault and not just you being late).

If the ticket had London Terminals as the origin, the Underground journey is irrelevant. It is not the concern of EC how the Op got to Kings Cross on that ticket (and the conditions of the ticket are specific on that matter). If the ticket has Zone U1 as the origin, or it was valid for cross London transfer, then that is a different matter.

 

[MIJOHNSON]

Hi Lexy, I never actually travelled to Leeds from Newark at all, I went to from Newark to Sheffield.

Unfortunately I didnt foresee the need to keep the ticket and was about to say i did not have it.

However....

on closer inspection of my monthly pass ticket wallet it appears by divine providence I stuck it in with all my month passes and DO have the ticket. hurray(!?)

 

[penaltyfines]

They can only make you pay for a journey you have made, so ultimately you could refuse to pay and they would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt etc etc.

If you just write to them explaining, providing a copy of the ticket etc, I'm sure they will see sense. But whatever you do, don't pay the higher fare as they have no way of forcing you to do so.

 

[MikeWh]

If the ticket had London Terminals as the origin, the Underground journey is irrelevant. It is not the concern of EC how the Op got to Kings Cross on that ticket (and the conditions of the ticket are specific on that matter). If the ticket has Zone U1 as the origin, or it was valid for cross London transfer, then that is a different matter.

This is absolutely right, of course. However, if it happens again it would be worth asking at the EC ticket office at Kings Cross whether they would be prepared to endorse your ticket for later travel. If the Underground disruption is significant and is known about, or can be verified, then they might be prepared to do so as a gesture of goodwill. The guard/TM on the train later on will have no idea about disruption in London and won't easily be able to check.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Perhaps you missed hairyhandedfool's post while you were typing? It draws out an important distinction.

If you were given a time limit in which to pay or appeal, and are still within that time period, then I would suggest writing a courteous letter explaining a) you accept the basic facts that you were the person travelling on that train, b) the cause(s) of your delay with other transport in London, c) the shorter distance you actually travelled (and why you had said 'Leeds' but only travelled to Newark) and ask if the Company would re-consider their claim in light of those facts (enclosing copies of the evidence).

If you have let the time limit expire, then an apology with your request would be more appropriate. That request should take into account hairyhandedfool's distinction where, if a London element was not included in your Leeds ticket, then simply ask them to re-issue a the charge for the London-Newark juorney (enclosing copies of the evidence).

I'm sorry that I cannot agree with penaltyfare's advice that there is no means of enforcing payment. Exactly that happens regularly when people delay or ignore requests for payment and they are confirmed by the Courts (in cases where Criminal prosecutions are issued, non-payment can become quite a serious burden which I'm sure you will not wish to bear).

 

[LexyBoy]

I'd second DaveNewcastle's advice. Include a photocopy of your ticket (and possibly of your bank statement for good measure, to show that it was indeed you who bought the ticket). Make it clear from the outset that you are happy to pay for the London-Newark ticket.

The fact that you bought a ticket to Sheffield rather than Leeds may complicate things slightly, but an explanation of your journey (e.g. that you were going to get a ticket from Leeds to Sheffield anyway) should suffice.

You definitely don't want to take things to the courts (unless you have a very, very good lawyer who knows about railway law).

If the ticket had London Terminals as the origin, the Underground journey is irrelevant. It is not the concern of EC how the Op got to Kings Cross on that ticket (and the conditions of the ticket are specific on that matter). If the ticket has Zone U1 as the origin, or it was valid for cross London transfer, then that is a different matter.

I stand corrected - I always find the relationship between LUL and NR a bit confusing, as they seem to work together more closely than other parts of the network, but not on all things. I did say "you would normally be allowed on the next train" rather than "you should be" - this is my experience, but I realise it will vary by TOC/station/the mood of the staff concerned.

PS - I didn't even know it was possible to get an Advance ticket with U1 as the origin! Wonder if LU staff would complain that the ticket says "Route: Virgin Trains Only"

 

[MIJOHNSON]

PS - I didn't even know it was possible to get an Advance ticket with U1 as the origin! Wonder if LU staff would complain that the ticket says "Route: Virgin Trains Only"

I dont think you can.

Anyway in my case my advance ticket was purchased alongside a underground day travelcard and they all came as seperate tickets.

Thanks to everyone for they're input and help I shall write in and see what happens....

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Zone U1 part is effectively an add-on to the London Terminals fare, and has been possible for many years. Some out-boundary Travelcards are routed 'London Midland Only', 'FCC Only' and 'Virgin Trains Only', so I don't think LUL staff would have a problem with it, although it should work the barriers anyway.

 

[LexyBoy]

Thanks to everyone for they're input and help I shall write in and see what happens....

Good luck! And let us know what happens!

I dont think you can.

Some booking sites may not be able to do it, but it is possible - though at £3 on top of the same ticket from the London Terminal it's cheaper to use Oyster... but you do get peace of mind with an inclusive rail ticket.

(I was only kidding about LU staff querying the routeing - I'd love for them to say "you'll have to wait on the platform for the Virgin service" )