Unlikely we will see a return to full XC timetable?

[Starmill]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bristol-to-manchester.208420/

No, it's with one change at Birmingham. Times are hard, difficult choices have to be made.

If the 'difficult choice' is to make permanent an extension of journey time from three hours (which was on a par with driving) to nearly four and also withdraw all through services (without even a token few retained), the market share will suffer significantly. Bristol and Manchester are only 170 miles apart, and are two among the largest cities in England. It is not as if we're talking about the Bentham line or Rose Hill Marple here, the reductions to which have generated enormous traction on here despite being economically irrelevant.

Notably, a decent connection is on offer for Manchester to Bristol. Not that it would be very appealing to most people to travel by rail in only one direction.

 

[Camden]

I assume the TOC and government know what they are doing. Perhaps the economics and flows aren't as significant as you believe, especially when the link still exists albeit with a change. There is precedent for major cities having cross country services removed, for far less serious reasons.

I don't think we can honestly say what is going to be permanent right now. The government seems to hope things will eventually revert to how they used to be. My own opinion is that it's unlikely, and how/where people choose to travel about in the coming years may have little resemblance to 2019.

 

[Starmill]

I assume the TOC and government know what they are doing.

I think it has been proven time and again that is is about as far from the truth as it gets.

You're entitled to your views. The issue is however significant, and I've raised it because it appears not to have been mentioned here yet. Of course, there are endless pages of chatter about services from the village of Whitwell or on the Settle & Carlisle. It's also worth noting because the other city pairs previously well served by through CrossCountry services haven't suffered anything like as much. Journeys from Sheffield and Derby towards Oxford are the next most negatively affected with a 40 minute wait in Birmingham replacing a through train, and no feasible alternatives, but even that isn't as bad as 61 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==

There is precedent for major cities having cross country services removed, for far less serious reasons.

Really? Which journey pairs are you thinking of? Only Liverpool and Brighton stand out as having ever lost any, and given the real issue is making timely connections rather than having through services, Brighton is still very well connected. Places like Poole and Carlisle scarcely count as major cities.

 

[XC victim]

Really? Which journey pairs are you thinking of? Only Liverpool and Brighton stand out as having ever lost any, and given the real issue is making timely connections rather than having through services, Brighton is still very well connected. Places like Poole and Carlisle scarcely count as major cities.

I really don’t want to go over old arguments again but I would point out that for many passengers a trip to Brighton used to be a direct service But now involves having to get across London, which is not ideal especially if you have got a lot of luggage (apparently Brighton is known as something of a holiday destination)

And whilst Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle may not be “major” cities they do act as interchange stations for connecting services

 

[Camden]

I've raised it because it appears not to have been mentioned here yet. Of course, there are endless pages of chatter about services from the village of Whitwell ...

Really? Which journey pairs are you thinking of? Only Liverpool...

Yes, I was going to say Liverpool. "Journey pairs" doesn't really cover it, as it was taken off the cross country network entirely (as I recall, that was to improve the robustness of the VHF timetable operating out of Manchester...)

You also mentioned before a few other places that have generated chatter (rose hill marple etc). While I'm sure that some personal favourites (settle Carlisle) might figure in chatter, I would suggest the reason that "lesser" places figure more is because those are the services that affect people day to day. Making sure those are ok would seem to me to be a higher priority.

I don't think anyone is going to suffer a huge hardship in having to change trains in Birmingham, for a journey they make once in a blue moon. Given the distance, passengers from each are much more likely to be going to Birmingham anyway.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, I was going to say Liverpool. "Journey pairs" doesn't really cover it, as it was taken off the cross country network entirely (as I recall, that was to improve the robustness of the VHF timetable operating out of Manchester...)

You also mentioned before a few other places that have generated chatter (rose hill marple etc). While I'm sure that some personal favourites (settle Carlisle) might figure in chatter, I would suggest the reason that "lesser" places figure more is because those are the services that affect people day to day. Making sure those are ok would seem to me to be a higher priority.

I don't think anyone is going to suffer a huge hardship in having to change trains in Birmingham, for a journey they make once in a blue moon. Given the distance, passengers from each are much more likely to be going to Birmingham anyway.

They won't because they'll be driving instead, as the train is unattractive and expensive.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think anyone is going to suffer a huge hardship in having to change trains in Birmingham, for a journey they make once in a blue moon. Given the distance, passengers from each are much more likely to be going to Birmingham anyway.

The OP isn't complaining about changing in Birmingham as such. They are lamenting the fact that the connection between services run by the same operator is effectively a whole hour in one direction which is an unfortunate consequence of only half the service being run.

 

[irish_rail]

The OP isn't complaining about changing in Birmingham as such. They are lamenting the fact that the connection between services run by the same operator is effectively a whole hour in one direction which is an unfortunate consequence of only half the service being run.

Although let's face it changing at Birmingbham is a real rigmarole nowadays with the daft routes between platforms, making what should take 2 minutes take 15.

 

[Camden]

I can also think of one advantage to having a decent break in the middle of a journey like that: being able to get some fresh air. Or at least air through the mouth, rather than nose, and breathed directly rather than through a mask!

 

[Starmill]

Yes, I was going to say Liverpool. "Journey pairs" doesn't really cover it, as it was taken off the cross country network entirely (as I recall, that was to improve the robustness of the VHF timetable operating out of Manchester...)

What it's called is not as important as the actual journey. If you wish to discuss Liverpool's historical services that were branded Cross Country I recommend starting a new thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2020 ==

I can also think of one advantage to having a decent break in the middle of a journey like that: being able to get some fresh air. Or at least air through the mouth, rather than nose, and breathed directly rather than through a mask!

I think this is fairly delusional if you're asking for timetables to be designed taking this into account.

You insisted there was a journey in 3h 15 earlier with one change, but still haven't told us when in is?

 

[sjoh]

Am I losing the plot here, or are you suggesting that XC and DfT are planning on making this a permanent change? If so, do you have any evidence to back this up? I thought it quite clear that this was simply a covid timetable measure?

 

[mmh]

I don't think anyone is going to suffer a huge hardship in having to change trains in Birmingham

Is that the Birmingham which is so attractive to change at that the TOC under discussion has for many years advertised how to avoid it and published maps and lists of where else to change, or a different one?

 

[Ianno87]

Is that the Birmingham which is so attractive to change at that the TOC under discussion has for many years advertised how to avoid it and published maps and lists of where else to change, or a different one?

I don't recall XC having done that for years now, especially since the rebuild of New Street.

It was just a response to the journeys where the recast of XC in 2007/8 (e.g. removing northern WCML trains) enforced a change for the first time (which passengers have now got used to anyway)

 

[EllieAquitrain]

You also mentioned before a few other places that have generated chatter (rose hill marple etc). While I'm sure that some personal favourites (settle Carlisle) might figure in chatter, I would suggest the reason that "lesser" places figure more is because those are the services that affect people day to day. Making sure those are ok would seem to me to be a higher priority.

Surely a bigger city would affect more people day to day? I think the point isn't that Marple, Carlisle aren't deserving issues - rather that if those are, then Bristol absolutely must be!

 

[NorthOxonian]

As a regular user of their NE - SE service, I hope that the change isn't permanent - I find the ability to use one through train from Newcastle right through to Oxford very handy indeed. I'm not usually opposed to changing train, but when I have a lot of luggage it's less appealing, especially in the dungeon that is Birmingham New Street (even post renovation it's still a bit dark)!

The slight oddity at the moment is the Newcastle to Banbury service, which is running at the moment Monday - Friday. I wonder why that exists, is it just that a unit has a lot of time at Birmingham New Street and they want to run it as far south as possible down towards Reading rather than having it dwell in Brum? I'm not complaining because if it's still around in October I'll quite possibly be wanting to use it!

 

[158756]

I don't recall XC having done that for years now, especially since the rebuild of New Street.

It was just a response to the journeys where the recast of XC in 2007/8 (e.g. removing northern WCML trains) enforced a change for the first time (which passengers have now got used to anyway)

It's still on their website: https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.u...nections/making-your-train-connections-easier

The following table shows our recommended location for you to change for the CrossCountry journeys indicated when a direct train isn't available.

 

[Ianno87]

It's still on their website: https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.u...nections/making-your-train-connections-easier

The following table shows our recommended location for you to change for the CrossCountry journeys indicated when a direct train isn't available.

Good spot.

Though in practice most passengers will just change where the journey planner tells them to change!

A bit odd to have spent many millions of pounds rebuilding New Street but still promote not changing there (given that, complexity notwithstanding, it has by far the best station facilities compared to Wolves, Leamington, Derby and Cheltenham)

 

[London Trains]

Could a simple fix to this problem be to shift the path of the South West to North East to the opposite half hour (so using the paths of the Bristol to Manchester and Reading to Newcastle services) and then the connections for people travelling from the SW to NW, and SE to NE would be reduced to 30 minutes instead of 60

I do see a couple of problems, one that the Reading to Newcastle goes via Doncaster (so would the path to switch it to going via Leeds be available since XC wouldnt want to drop serving Leeds) and also the fact that different paths would need to exist south of Bristol and north of Newcastle.

 

[Ianno87]

Could a simple fix to this problem be to shift the path of the South West to North East to the opposite half hour (so using the paths of the Bristol to Manchester and Reading to Newcastle services) and then the connections for people travelling from the SW to NW, and SE to NE would be reduced to 30 minutes instead of 60

I do see a couple of problems, one that the Reading to Newcastle goes via Doncaster (so would the path to switch it to going via Leeds be available since XC wouldnt want to drop serving Leeds) and also the fact that different paths would need to exist south of Bristol and north of Newcastle.

You almost certainly wouldn't be able to get an opposite half-hour path through Leeds, for starters.

Although the long connection times for some passengers are a nuisance, it affects relatively few passengers in the grand scheme of things.

In fact, shifting the path likely makes a whole heap of currently good connections elsewhere much worse instead!

 

[Purple Orange]

Am I losing the plot here, or are you suggesting that XC and DfT are planning on making this a permanent change? If so, do you have any evidence to back this up? I thought it quite clear that this was simply a covid timetable measure?

Yes this doesn’t appear to make sense in the long term, but on the other side of the coin, could this be a precursor to rail travel post HS2?

I have often had need to travel between Manchester & Bristol, but when it boils down to it (even if direct trains were still in operation) if the journey via HS2 and a change in Brum is a shorter journey time than the direct service, I’ll be making the change in Brum every time.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Plus the change in Birmingham can often put you on a proper train - especially important if going the extra two hours to Plymouth

 

[Wychwood93]

As a regular user of their NE - SE service, I hope that the change isn't permanent - I find the ability to use one through train from Newcastle right through to Oxford very handy indeed. I'm not usually opposed to changing train, but when I have a lot of luggage it's less appealing, especially in the dungeon that is Birmingham New Street (even post renovation it's still a bit dark)!

The slight oddity at the moment is the Newcastle to Banbury service, which is running at the moment Monday - Friday. I wonder why that exists, is it just that a unit has a lot of time at Birmingham New Street and they want to run it as far south as possible down towards Reading rather than having it dwell in Brum? I'm not complaining because if it's still around in October I'll quite possibly be wanting to use it!

The two train pairs which cover Brum/Banbury (which includes the Newcastle) go via Solihull - the Bournemouth/Manchester services are via Coventry. Route retention for the former?

 

[Starmill]

Am I losing the plot here, or are you suggesting that XC and DfT are planning on making this a permanent change? If so, do you have any evidence to back this up? I thought it quite clear that this was simply a covid timetable measure?

Whom are you addressing, if anyone in particular, given you didn't quote anything?

The decision was made to split the threads, if you return to the original first post you will note that this is precisely the question that has been posited? If it is intended to be a temporary change, which I think it's plain I was banking on it being, why are there pages of people arguing it's actually an improvement?

As for your assertion that the status of the change as temporary is 'quite clear', I would argue that nothing whatsoever is 'quite clear' about the post-December timetable, and that only best guesses are available. Cutting the service at Alsager by 50%, probably permanently, came entirely out of the blue, for example. The idea wasn't floated pre-pandemic.

It's arguable that the new thread title is a little off, but I can't think of anything better that could be used and I'm not sure exactly what topic is intended for discussion here vs in the other thread.

 

[tbtc]

IIRC there was no Bristol - Manchester service for around five years (between "Princess" and the end of VTXC), but I appreciate that there are some people who do such a journey (and for whom the "Covid" timetable is certainly not an improvement).

The problem is how XC try to maintain through services (or reasonable connections) whilst running fewer services - they can't rip the timetable up and start again - they are tied to various bottlenecks.

Taking tomorrow lunchtime as a benchmark, the New Street dwells are:

• xx:48-xx:57 - Bournemouth to Manchester
• xx:58-xx:03 - Plymouth/Bristol to Edinburgh/Glasgow
• xx:59-xx:04 - Manchester to Bournemouth
• xx:04-xx:12 - Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Bristol/ Plymouth

...so you couldn't run a bi-hourly combination of services (e.g. hourly from New Street to each destination but with a service every two hours between each "northern" and "southern" leg) since the Scottish service will be arriving into Birmingham as the Bournemouth service departs.

Since the Scottish service is tied to an hourly path through Leeds (which is a fixed point in time and space), the only thing I'd suggest would be making the Manchester service run in the "opposite" path (i.e. the path of the "old" Manchester - Bristol service as far as Birmingham and then the path of the "old" Newcastle - Reading service south of there), which would mean Birmingham connections of around thirty minutes for any through passengers (e.g. Manchester to Bristol) and that may mean not being able to serve Coventry (there's not been a path for the Newcastle service to do so, hence the Solihull route) or run all the way to Bournemouth (I don't know if there's paths beyond Reading/ Southampton for an extension of the current ex-Newcastle paths?).

I agree that it's a bigger "problem" than some of the branch lines that the Forum likes to fixate on, but I don't know how it can be solved, until XC start running two trains per hour on at least some of their routes out of Birmingham.

 

[JonathanH]

I agree that it's a bigger "problem" than some of the branch lines that the Forum likes to fixate on, but I don't know how it can be solved, until XC start running two trains per hour on at least some of their routes out of Birmingham.

'Starmill' came up with a solution - running one diagram from Bristol Temple Meads to Birmingham New Street in the existing path - Bristol TM dep xx00, Birmingham New Street arr x125, dep x142, Bristol TM arr x309 - repeat each four hours.

It doesn't solve the NE - SC issue mind.