Union representation with management for non union members

[officewalla]

Please direct me to the relevant thread if posted elsewhere but a search on the forum and using Google has failed to elicit an answer.

Scenario: non union member gets into a pickle and has a no coffee interview scheduled with a manager. If asked, does a union rep have to support said individual in the same way as they would a union member? In other words, is there a legal obligation to treat every worker the same if and until a financial cost such as legal representation might be required?

 

[AlterEgo]

Scenario: non union member gets into a pickle and has a no coffee interview scheduled with a manager. If asked, does a union rep have to support said individual in the same way as they would a union member?

No.

They have the right to be accompanied at a meeting, usually by a colleague, but it does not have to be and probably will not be a union rep. They aren't a member.

 

[NSE]

If they aren’t in the Union then there is nothing to say they should represent them. That said a few caveats.

- Some Union reps may decide to represent on the basis the situation at hand is of significant interest to the staff they represent in general and may have knock on effects to their members.
- Some Union reps may get on with the non Union member and be happy to do so.
- Some Union reps may not wish to represent but may offer some off the record/general guidance before hand.
- Some Union reps may flat out decide to have no involvement as they aren’t Union members.

So I guess what I’m trying to say it really depends on the situation and who is being challenged by who over what.

 

[dk1]

I have been asked to sit in a meeting with a colleague (different grade) as I was spare and he was not a member. Obviously no Union representative would assist in any way neither would the persons same grade colleagues who were Union members.

 

[officewalla]

No.

They have the right to be accompanied at a meeting, usually by a colleague, but it does not have to be and probably will not be a union rep. They aren't a member.

Thank you but a straight No does not answer the question. I am after some specific guidance or legislation that supports the question one way or the other and no it is not for me or a friend. I am just curious as I have been told by an ex senior retail manager that this is the case but he left the industry some time ago and cannot remember what underpinned his assertion.

 

[Horizon22]

A union rep could still represent the individual (if they agreed) but it would likely not be in their capacity as a union rep but an “employee representative” or similar.

In grievance / disciplinary proceedings, people are always entitled to representation but it doesn’t have the be a union one. Full information would be within the local company policies.

 

[PLY2AYS]

A union rep could still represent the individual (if they agreed) but it would likely not be in their capacity as a union rep but an “employee representative” or similar.

In grievance / disciplinary proceedings, people are always entitled to representation but it doesn’t have the be a union one. Full information would be within the local company policies.

AFAIK: Under UK law every worker has a right to union representation, whether they are in a union or not.

Whether the union choose to assist or represent them in that instance is dependent on circumstances.

You’d have to check locally with your branch and company, what factors come into play both with their rulebook or any local reasons why that would be inappropriate.

 

[NSE]

Thank you but a straight No does not answer the question. I am after some specific guidance or legislation that supports the question one way or the other and no it is not for me or a friend. I am just curious as I have been told by an ex senior retail manager that this is the case but he left the industry some time ago and cannot remember what underpinned his assertion.

I’m only (relatively) knowledgable on the railway, but I wouldn’t be surprised for railway Union rules and operations to be different to those in retail.

The answer is no. Union Reps do not have to assist non Union members. But as I explained in my previous post there may be some circumstances where they may decide to offer some help. But that is purely down to them deciding to do so, not because they have an obligation to.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Hi - recently stood down senior TU rep here (RMT - having a year off!).

Under the Employment Relations Act 1999 all employees have a legal right to formal representation at disciplinary and grievance hearings. As mentioned, this can be either by a TU representative or a workplace colleague. Individuals can decline to have representation, but they cannot be refused if by management in circumstances covered by the law.

If an individual is not a union member an employer cannot compel a union rep to support them - indeed they can’t compel anyone to do so. There is no ‘right’ to be represented by a union if you are not a member even in unionised workplaces. Similarly, even if you are in a union you may prefer to take someone else in with you for whatever reason.

As mentioned, whether a TU rep would support a ‘non’ is ultimately a personal decision and will differ from rep to rep. I always took a fairly holistic view and gave everyone a chance in the hope that they would then join up, and it generally worked out that way.

For the sake of completeness, a local level TU rep can also decline to offer representation to a member, but the specifics of this are generally covered by the relevant TU’s rule book. The higher up the tree you get the harder it is to do that - but you should also (in theory) have more time available to do so.

The law around TU representation applies irrespective of workforce and employer. There may be some employer specific additions, but they cannot overrule the law. Your contact is misinformed, and has misinformed you.

 

[GordonT]

On occasion, a non-union member finding himself/herself in a "pickle" can recognise it as an opportune time to decide to join the union.

 

[FR510]

If a union rep represents a non union member, all those paid up members could question why they bother paying their union membership and decide to quit the union. That does the union no favours at all.

 

[dk1]

On occasion, a non-union member finding himself/herself in a "pickle" can be an opportune time to decide to join the union.

Yes but only when the current issue is concluded.

 

[GordonT]

Yes but only when the current issue is concluded.

Ok - but presumably "showing willing" could potentially make the difference between the union rep steering clear and being amenable to assist depending on the circs as highlighted above.

 

[Dieseldriver]

If a union rep represents a non union member, all those paid up members could question why they bother paying their union membership and decide to quit the union. That does the union no favours at all.

I would view it as for the ‘greater good’. It’s not a closed shop, it’s up to individuals to make their personal choice to join a union, personally I would strongly recommend joining a union however, that’s just my opinion.
If a non member is in hot water, the situation is relevant to all in that grade and for the sake of everyone (union member or not) I would prefer they got the representation as the outcome could have negative ramifications for everyone else.
As has been said before, you’d probably find in most cases that the person concerned would join the union after seeing first hand the benefits of union representation.

 

[dk1]

Ok - but presumably "showing willing" could potentially make the difference between the union rep steering clear and being amenable to assist depending on the circs as highlighted above.

No, that’s not how it works. A union representative would shrug their shoulders at a non-member wanting help. Nobody would pay their subscriptions if they could wait until they are facing disciplinary action before joining.

 

[officewalla]

I have been asked to sit in a meeting with a colleague (different grade) as I was spare and he was not a member. Obviously no Union representative would assist in any way neither would the persons same grade colleagues who were Union member

Hi - recently stood down senior TU rep here (RMT - having a year off!).

Under the Employment Relations Act 1999 all employees have a legal right to formal representation at disciplinary and grievance hearings. As mentioned, this can be either by a TU representative or a workplace colleague. Individuals can decline to have representation, but they cannot be refused if by management in circumstances covered by the law.

If an individual is not a union member an employer cannot compel a union rep to support them - indeed they can’t compel anyone to do so. There is no ‘right’ to be represented by a union if you are not a member even in unionised workplaces. Similarly, even if you are in a union you may prefer to take someone else in with you for whatever reason.

As mentioned, whether a TU rep would support a ‘non’ is ultimately a personal decision and will differ from rep to rep. I always took a fairly holistic view and gave everyone a chance in the hope that they would then join up, and it generally worked out that way.

For the sake of completeness, a local level TU rep can also decline to offer representation to a member, but the specifics of this are generally covered by the relevant TU’s rule book. The higher up the tree you get the harder it is to do that - but you should also (in theory) have more time available to do so.

The law around TU representation applies irrespective of workforce and employer. There may be some employer specific additions, but they cannot overrule the law. Your contact is misinformed, and has misinformed you.

Thank you for the explanation. Much obliged to you for he detail.

 

[father_jack]

No, that’s not how it works. A union representative would shrug their shoulders at a non-member wanting help. Nobody would pay their subscriptions if they could wait until they are facing disciplinary action before joining.

Reps have wrongly allowed people to "join" the union after an issue has happened much to the disgust of fellow reps (me included).......

 

[KNN]

This happened to a colleague of mine, shortly after joining a TOC, they asked for help, the union represented them, they became a grateful member after.

As others have said, you can't count on it, but many reps do it for the principles of fair treatment of workers so will do what they can.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you but a straight No does not answer the question.

It does answer the question you asked, namely:

If asked, does a union rep have to support said individual in the same way as they would a union member?

(my emphasis)

The answer to this is a straight no. They do not have to.

@bluegoblin7 expands on this by explaining some circumstances in which a union rep may decide to represent someone out of political expediency, but no, they don't have to.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

I'm a union rep in a non rail-related industry. We don't represent non-members and new members only get representation after a month, and not at all with any incidents that arose before they joined.

Joining a union after an incident and expecting help is like insuring your car after a crash and expecting a payout.

Another point is that I only get facility time from my employer to represent members. If helping anyone else I'd have to use leave or lose pay.

 

[KNN]

I'm a union rep in a non rail-related industry. We don't represent non-members and new members only get representation after a month, and not at all with any incidents that arose before they joined.

Joining a union after an incident and expecting help is like insuring your car after a crash and expecting a payout.

Another point is that I only get facility time from my employer to represent members. If helping anyone else I'd have to use leave or lose pay.

How would your employer know if the person being represented is a member or not?

Union members acting like it's a cabal never sits well with me.

 

[AlterEgo]

How would your employer know if the person being represented is a member or not?

Why would that make any difference?

 

[PLY2AYS]

Why would that make any difference?

Because employers don’t have access to union membership names.

 

[AlterEgo]

Because employers don’t have access to union membership names.

Not what I asked.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

How would your employer know if the person being represented is a member or not?

Union members acting like it's a cabal never sits well with me.

I was about to ask that very question! An employer has no right, and should not have any reasonable way, of knowing who is a union member and who is not.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Not what I asked.

Sorry, allow me to be more specific.

Employers shouldn’t have access to union membership names. Therefore it shouldn’t matter who you represent to the employer, because any employee is entitled to union representation.

Hope this constitutes an acceptable answer.

EDIT* upon rereading your question, this is exactly what you’d asked but I hope that this helps piecing information together in more joined up thinking.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Why would that make any difference?

Because they said that they only get time to attend if the person if a member of the union, which the employer cannot know so how would they not allow a rep time off to attend meetings?

 

[mmh]

I'm a union rep in a non rail-related industry. We don't represent non-members and new members only get representation after a month

Blimey, which union is that? I wouldn't have joined any where I knew there was a time limit on them representing me for a new grievance.

I've been a union member most of my working life, while working for both unionised and non-unionised employers, and to discover that of any of them would have been an instant reason to change union for me.

I think (but may misremember the order) that this is my union membership history. MSF, Amicus, Unite, PCS, Unison, GMB. You didn't say which union you're a rep for, but are you willing to say if it's one of those in their current or previous form?

 

[NSEWonderer]

It depends on the issue requiring representation and if its something the Union has been actually trying to understand or deal with, of which a certain result may set a unwanted precedent for union members of the same grade.

As others have said a union doesn't have to represent a non union member, most times they won't, but in specfic cases it may be done for the greater good of dealing with an unwanted start or trend by an employer.

 

[Horizon22]

How would your employer know if the person being represented is a member or not?

Union members acting like it's a cabal never sits well with me.

They don't, but I can see - whilst I may not personally agree - why the rep may not want / be able to represent you. Whilst it may often help the non-union member join up, I'm sure there are some (albeit a small minority of) individuals who feel like they can gain all the benefit at the time when they do need it, instead of paying their subs like everyone else. So this is more how the specific union / union management morally wants to approach it, rather than anything the employer does or doesn't know.

It's sort of like buying insurance, after the issue you want to claim for.

As an aside, can I please ask everyone to remain civil and professional and please not make personal insults on people with fair and valid opinions to which you may disagree.