Unintentional invalid ticket

[Sanahoxo]

On the 29th December I had plans to go Manchester Via train for new years. I had accidentally purchased the right ticket for the wrong date. I had gone to my railway station (Bradford) and when I scanned my ticket which the gate did not open so the worker had checked my ticket and passed me through. When I sat on the train another worker passes by and checks my ticket. Still, unnoticed by me and him. When I got to Manchester I tried to scan my ticket to go through again, again did not pass me through so I confidently showed my ticket and the worker had made me aware that I had purchased the 31 st of January instead of 31 at December. He then guides me to another man who explained he would sort my ticket out for me but not explaining he was going to issue me a penalty fare. He then begins to take my details which I confidently give as I thought I was buying a new ticket to get back as that what he said. I then realised when he printed out the fare of £116. He explained that if I contact them and explain you wouldn’t have to pay. When I came home I began my appeal to explain my mistake. I explained I had accidentally purchased the wrong date but right time, right route and destination I had also explained I had paid for my ticket and it would be no use for me to use it a month earlier. My first and second appeal has been unsuccessful and I’m currently in process to give my third and final. It’s been over 21 days and unable to pay even half and I am stressed due to my financial situation. Please can I have some advice.

 

[John R]

Was the £116 a penalty fare? Can you upload the ticket, with any personal details obscured.

In terms of finances, you may be able to refund the original ticket, unless it was an advance ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

You have no defences with a reasonable chance of success available to you other than technical ones around signage and the format of the notice I'm afraid.

Could you upload a copy of the notice with your personal details blanked out?

 

[ikcdab]

The first and second appeals rarely succeed. The third appeal is seen by an independent panel and is the one to focus on. It is your final chance.
On the surface it sounds like you have not tried to evade any fares, you made a mistake with the date. Though presumably you came back so you would have had to select February for the return date.
There is a method of fare evasion where people do exactly what you did and if the ticket isn't checked they can then claim a refund. So you need to be clear that it was a mistake and not attempted evasion.
You need to upload all of the details, tickets, letters, appeals etc (with personal details blacked out) so that people here can offer the right advice.

 

[robbeech]

Though presumably you came back so you would have had to select February for the return date.

Not necessarily. If they purchased an “open return” as some retailers call it then they won’t have been asked about their return journey at all.
Likewise if they purchased things separately it may not have been noticed.

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s been over 21 days and unable to pay even half and I am stressed due to my financial situation. Please can I have some advice.

If this was a genuine Penalty Fare and you have / are going through the formal Appeal process then the 'clock is stopped' on the 21 day ability to pay the 50% discounted Penalty Fare (£50 + new ticket) during the appeal process as I understand it - so you are not penalised for appealing in financial terms. If you upload paperwork with personal details / refs as suggested people can check this for you.

 

[fandroid]

I don't want to raise a red herring but isn't there a defence here that the OP was effectively allowed to travel by a "authorised person"? Several in fact, but the important one was the gateline attendant at the starting station. They undoubtedly had the explicit authority to accept or reject the ticket, and they accepted it. It helps a lot that it was a gated station.

It's often stated here that actions are proof of intent and there's no more explicit action than opening a gate after inspecting a ticket.

Others can help with the exact features of the byelaws, regulations and NRCoT that cover authorised travel.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't want to raise a red herring but isn't there a defence here that the OP was effectively allowed to travel by a "authorised person"? Several in fact, but the important one was the gateline attendant at the starting station. They undoubtedly had the explicit authority to accept or reject the ticket, and they accepted it. It helps a lot that it was a gated station.

It's often stated here that actions are proof of intent and there's no more explicit action than opening a gate after inspecting a ticket.

Others can help with the exact features of the byelaws, regulations and NRCoT that cover authorised travel.

I think this is a relatively thin argument. It relies on the OP being able to prove, themselves, that they were given authority to travel, and then for a magistrate to consider whether someone lazily opening a gate while not having processed the date on the ticket is doing just that.

I don't think the omissions of rail staff amount to giving authority to travel; this seems to be something which is done by commission and not by omission. That is, opening a gate because you weren't paying attention is unlikely to be enough in my view, but actually endorsing the ticket or having a conversation with the customer about it probably would be.

 

[Sultan]

I don't want to raise a red herring but isn't there a defence here that the OP was effectively allowed to travel by a "authorised person"? Several in fact, but the important one was the gateline attendant at the starting station. They undoubtedly had the explicit authority to accept or reject the ticket, and they accepted it. It helps a lot that it was a gated station.

It's often stated here that actions are proof of intent and there's no more explicit action than opening a gate after inspecting a ticket.

Others can help with the exact features of the byelaws, regulations and NRCoT that cover authorised travel.

Indeed. If the starting point is barriered, requiring a valid ticket to enter, then having the barriers opened by staff infers authority to travel.

What ticket type did you purchase? Not an advance I hope.

 

[fandroid]

I don't think the omissions of rail staff amount to giving authority to travel; this seems to be something which is done by commission and not by omission. That is, opening a gate because you weren't paying attention is unlikely to be enough in my view, but actually endorsing the ticket or having a conversation with the customer about it probably would be.

I don't want to prolong this decade too much, but I think there was plenty of "commission" here. The "omission" part was the failure to check the ticket properly. The OP had a ticket rejected by the gate. They then requested entry from the attendant. The attendant gave explicit authority by opening the gate. Perhaps no words were exchanged, but all the actions comprised a request and acceptance of the validity of that request.

 

[Haywain]

I don't want to prolong this decade too much,

I don't think you have a choice - it's 10 years whether you like it or not!!

 

[furlong]

The ticket was presented to the train company at Bradford through its automated equipment. The equipment detected it was not valid and responded accordingly. At this point the train company was aware that the ticket was not valid for the journey. The train company then permitted travel using this ticket by way of an employee opening a gate. Whether or not the employee was in fact fully informed isn't really relevant - the capability certainly existed for the employee to have been informed of the ticket gate's reason for rejection or to have interpreted the ticket directly and so I think it's reasonable to conclude that authority to travel was in place. (Of course there might be other factors missing from the account we've been given that would change that conclusion.) The company certainly knew the ticket was invalid prior to the company permitting the passenger to travel using it. There's no question that the company had the awareness of the issue and the ability to prevent travel but chose not to do so. Or in other words, mistakes on both sides, so a penalty would be inappropriate. Appeal under the "compelling reasons" clause.

 

[Sultan]

The ticket was presented to the train company at Bradford through its automated equipment. The equipment detected it was not valid and responded accordingly. At this point the train company was aware that the ticket was not valid for the journey. The train company then permitted travel using this ticket by way of an employee opening a gate. Whether or not the employee was in fact fully informed isn't really relevant - the capability certainly existed for the employee to have been informed of the ticket gate's reason for rejection or to have interpreted the ticket directly and so I think it's reasonable to conclude that authority to travel was in place. (Of course there might be other factors missing from the account we've been given that would change that conclusion.) The company certainly knew the ticket was invalid prior to the company permitting the passenger to travel using it. There's no question that the company had the awareness of the issue and the ability to prevent travel but chose not to do so. Or in other words, mistakes on both sides, so a penalty would be inappropriate. Appeal under the "compelling reasons" clause.

And perhaps the important point here is that the ticket was put through the barriers and rejected - a clear indication to the person on the gate that there was something wrong with the ticket and was re-checked and rejection over-ruled, thus permitting travel.

It might be a different story had the ticket not been rejected by the barrier - ie no attempt to gain entry by using it (although it shouldn't be).

 

[MotCO]

The ticket was also ok'ed by an on train inspector (see post#1), so effectively two railway employees gave permission to travel. Proving it may be a different matter, but presumably the train company know if there was an inspector on the train, and given that there was no train irregularity report issued on the train, this would give credence to the assumption the ticket was cleared.

 

[Sanahoxo]

Hi all, thanks for your response. This ticket was purchased online on the train line app and not at the train station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2024 ==

Indeed. If the starting point is barriered, requiring a valid ticket to enter, then having the barriers opened by staff infers authority to travel.

What ticket type did you purchase? Not an advance I

If this was a genuine Penalty Fare and you have / are going through the formal Appeal process then the 'clock is stopped' on the 21 day ability to pay the 50% discounted Penalty Fare (£50 + new ticket) during the appeal process as I understand it - so you are not penalised for appealing in financial terms. If you upload paperwork with personal details / refs as suggested people can check this for you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2024 ==

Was the £116 a penalty fare? Can you upload the ticket, with any personal details obscured.

In terms of finances, you may be able to refund the original ticket, unless it was an advance ticket.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

deleted on re reading

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Concur with @Y Ddraig Coch.

The PF issued suggests/states that the ticket used was a month late. Is that correct?

If that's not the case, would this be technical grounds for successful appeal?

 

[Sanahoxo]

The first and second appeals rarely succeed. The third appeal is seen by an independent panel and is the one to focus on. It is your final chance.
On the surface it sounds like you have not tried to evade any fares, you made a mistake with the date. Though presumably you came back so you would have had to select February for the return date.
There is a method of fare evasion where people do exactly what you did and if the ticket isn't checked they can then claim a refund. So you need to be clear that it was a mistake and not attempted evasion.
You need to upload all of the details, tickets, letters, appeals etc (with personal details blacked out) so that people here can offer the right advice.

The PF issued suggests/states that the ticket used was a month late. Is that correct?

I never noticed that !!!! Thank you. That’s correct I used it earlier

 

[fandroid]

I think we should help the OP to construct an appeal on the legalistic basis that's been recommended before, carefully quoting the various Penalty Fare regulation clauses and other clauses from NRCoT and possibly railway byelaws too, as well as the full circumstances of how they were authorised to travel. These have, in the right circumstances, been successful previously. I'm unsure how much time there is left before the appeal must be submitted.

The "month late" issue needs to be addressed too. Belt and braces here, but that's beyond most passengers expertise to spell out, so we'd need to dig out all the quotations and the correct terminology.

 

[John R]

It says “ for a month a later”.

Ignoring the stray a, I think it is clear that the ticket was valid a month later, which is correct.

 

[Sanahoxo]

I think we should help the OP to construct an appeal on the legalistic basis that's been recommended before, carefully quoting the various Penalty Fare regulation clauses and other clauses from NRCoT and possibly railway byelaws too, as well as the full circumstances of how they were authorised to travel. These have, in the right circumstances, been successful previously. I'm unsure how much time there is left before the appeal must be submitted.

The "month late" issue needs to be addressed too. Belt and braces here, but that's beyond most passengers expertise to spell out, so we'd need to dig out all the quotations and the correct terminology.

Thank you so much

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I think we should help the OP to construct an appeal on the legalistic basis that's been recommended before, carefully quoting the various Penalty Fare regulation clauses and other clauses from NRCoT and possibly railway byelaws too, as well as the full circumstances of how they were authorised to travel. These have, in the right circumstances, been successful previously. I'm unsure how much time there is left before the appeal must be submitted.

The "month late" issue needs to be addressed too. Belt and braces here, but that's beyond most passengers expertise to spell out, so we'd need to dig out all the quotations and the correct terminology.

The "r" on the end of Month "later" is actually there, its just dropped onto the next line and is all by itself but is there.

 

[Sultan]

It says “ for a month a later”.

Ignoring the stray a, I think it is clear that the ticket was valid a month later, which is correct.

I agree here. To me it reads 'Passenger using invalid ticket at Manchester Victoria barriers, (which was dated) for a month a(?) later." Don't see how you can appeal on these grounds.

Did you have a physical ticket or eticket (apologies if you've already told us)? If you still have it then can they not tell that an attempt was made to use it at a physical barrier? That would add credence to your story and how the person on the gate should have checked your ticket more thoroughly before allowing you to continue (which by its very nature, is an authority to travel).

 

[Sanahoxo]

Hi everyone,
Thank you all for your responses. I have written out an appeal. Please let me know if this is okay as it’s a rough letter. Please advise anything I may add or remove. And thank you to the person who let me know the penalty fare is on standby whilst appealing so if it was unsuccessful I still eligible for paying half the price.

 

[Sultan]

Your name is visible. Best to not include that. Also, you might want to remove it entirely and type it into this thread. Else the train company may link the physical letter (assuming you send it) to this thread and this could affect their appeal decision (based on the contents of this thread).

Personally I think it is far too long, and doesn't concentrate on the main reason for your appeal - namely that you believe you were given authority to travel (on two occasions?). They will then consider the appeal on this alone and whether it could influence any future decision should it be rejected and you decide to proceed to court rather than pay the (reduced?) penalty.

Possibly hold off for now until others have commented. How many days again do you have left to lodge the final appeal?

 

[Sanahoxo]

Hi this was my ticket to Manchester, I travelled at the right time and route and right Trainline. I was also looking at the train times to arrive back and unfortunately because of New Year’s Eve the trains for cancelled so I had to catch the Uber which cost me around £85. I know it’s a mistake made my me but I feel like I have already paid enough for the mistake and it was a genuine human error. I don’t travel much on train. But £116 or even half is a lot to me that would get me by my food shop and to pay for that it’s stressing me out as I’m not financially stable to pay such amount and I wouldn’t ever want to put myself in this situation again

 

[MotCO]

Three immediate points.

Firstly, you may wish to redact (hide) the signature on the letter.
Secondly, the letter seems to imply that both you and your sister travelled at the same time. Did you both have the same type of ticket, and if so, was she also stopped?
Thirdly, the letter seems too long - I've not even finished reading it!

 

[Sanahoxo]

Your name is visible. Best to not include that. Also, you might want to remove it entirely and type it into this thread. Else the train company may link the physical letter (assuming you send it) to this thread and this could affect their appeal decision (based on the contents of this thread).

Personally I think it is far too long, and doesn't concentrate on the main reason for your appeal - namely that you believe you were given authority to travel (on two occasions?). They will then consider the appeal on this alone and whether it could influence any future decision should it be rejected and you decide to proceed to court rather than pay the (reduced?) penalty.

Possibly hold off for now until others have commented. How many days again do you have left to lodge the final appeal?

Hi thanks for your response. I have written my name but my name is also on this account. No other personal information such as my address or dob has been shared

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2024 ==

Three immediate points.

Firstly, you may wish to redact (hide) the signature on the letter.
Secondly, the letter seems to imply that both you and your sister travelled at the same time. Did you both have the same type of ticket, and if so, was she also stopped?
Thirdly, the letter seems too long - I've not even finished reading it!

Yes I had purchased the ticket for myself and my sister

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2024 ==

Your name is visible. Best to not include that. Also, you might want to remove it entirely and type it into this thread. Else the train company may link the physical letter (assuming you send it) to this thread and this could affect their appeal decision (based on the contents of this thread).

Personally I think it is far too long, and doesn't concentrate on the main reason for your appeal - namely that you believe you were given authority to travel (on two occasions?). They will then consider the appeal on this alone and whether it could influence any future decision should it be rejected and you decide to proceed to court rather than pay the (reduced?) penalty.

Possibly hold off for now until others have commented. How many days again do you have left to lodge the final appeal?

My last appeal reply was sent to me yesterday which was unsuccessful. I have 13 days

 

[Sultan]

So you have exhausted your 3 appeals? If this is the case, then you have to weigh up the best option going forward:

1) Pay the penalty fare - I hope you still have time to pay the reduced amount should you decide on this option.
2) Don't pay the penalty fare - this risks them initiating debt recovery procedures which could increase the amount well in excess of £116.

I don't believe they have any redress to take you to criminal court - happy to be corrected on this one though.

 

[Sanahoxo]

So you have exhausted your 3 appeals? If this is the case, then you have to weigh up the best option going forward:

1) Pay the penalty fare - I hope you still have time to pay the reduced amount should you decide on this option.
2) Don't pay the penalty fare - this risks them initiating debt recovery procedures which could increase the amount well in excess of £116.

I don't believe they have any redress to take you to criminal court - happy to be corrected on this one though.

No sorry I meant the last reply I got from my 2nd appeal was yesterday. I have my last appeal to submit via post