Unidentified single track railway

[D6130]

The signal post looks like an NER wooden slotted arm type. With the fairly steep hillside on the left, it's unlikely to be anywhere in the East Riding or the Vale of York. I'm thinking of the Pateley Bridge, Hawes, Middleton-in-Teesdale or Wearhead branches.

 

[Rescars]

I've stretched the train a bit to compensate for the foreshortening. (Although the forum ensquarifies the miniature version so it looks like I haven't.)

If only the photographer had stood in a slightly different position so the signal arm wasn't behind the tree...

The tree is a real nuisance. If it weren't there we'd be able to see all sorts of things. Not just the signal, but even the shape of the cab spectacles perhaps - Fletcher's were rather distinctive.

I wonder if it is a through coach working to some obscure branch off a mainline train. Hence the newer coaches.

There appears to be some sort of disc attached to the end of the carriage, could this be some sort of destination indicator to mark which portion of the train it is, this might give a clue.

My other thought it the clothing suggests Sunday Best, not everyday clothes, or possibly a school uniform, taken presumably when photos were expensive so got multiple subjects in one shot

The foliage, or rather the lack of it, is interesting. Was the photo taken in early spring perhaps? So the clothing may not just be Sunday Best, but Easter outfits perhaps? Did the family live locally, or was the photo taken on a family outing to the countryside? If the latter, presumably they would have travelled by train. Presumably father is the photographer. So, given the weight of Edwardian photographic equipment, there may be a station not very far away. Sadly, I think many of these questions will remain unanswered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Oct 2024 ==

Not necessarily- they did occasionally fail.

True, but if there was no means of turning the loco at all, then tender-first running in one direction or the other would be guaranteed!

 

[etr221]

The signal post looks like an NER wooden slotted arm type. With the fairly steep hillside on the left, it's unlikely to be anywhere in the East Riding or the Vale of York. I'm thinking of the Pateley Bridge, Hawes, Middleton-in-Teesdale or Wearhead branches.

Middleton-in-Teesdale branch is mentioned in the relevant RCTS loco history as one where 1440 class locos worked.

 

[D6130]

The standard NER four bar wooden fencing looks fairly new. Perhaps the opening dates of the various Durham and Yorkshire Dales branches - tied in with the date of introduction of the 1440 class - may give a further clue?

 

[WesternLancer]

The standard NER four bar wooden fencing looks fairly new. Perhaps the opening dates of the various Durham and Yorkshire Dales branches - tied in with the date of introduction of the 1440 class - may give a further clue?

I did wonder if that was a company specific fencing design or style. Sounds as if it is then.

 

[D6130]

I did wonder if that was a company specific fencing design or style. Sounds as if it is then.

Yes....I should have thought of that earlier in the thread. There's plenty of it still in situ alongside the East Coast Main Line North of York - and on many other ex-NER lines - although often not too well maintained nowadays.

 

[30907]

The standard NER four bar wooden fencing looks fairly new. Perhaps the opening dates of the various Durham and Yorkshire Dales branches - tied in with the date of introduction of the 1440 class - may give a further clue?

Random searching says the Wearhead branch opened 1895.

 

[Pigeon]

Is this a bit better?

Cheers, I shall try and remember that code.

 

[Rescars]

The signal post looks like an NER wooden slotted arm type. With the fairly steep hillside on the left, it's unlikely to be anywhere in the East Riding or the Vale of York. I'm thinking of the Pateley Bridge, Hawes, Middleton-in-Teesdale or Wearhead branches.

From a bit of gentle digging, it would seem that Pateley Bridge had a turntable. The other three locations were not thus equipped, though Middleton-in Teesdale and Wearhead had single road engine sheds. Hawes doesn't appear to have had a turntable either. There was of course a very nice and famous one complete with stockade fencing just up the line at Hawes Junction (aka Garsdale), but to use it would have involved the NER running its branch train loco over Midland metals, which would seem to be a highly unlikely practice!

 

[Edgeley]

If I was to take a wild guess I'd go for somewhere in the USA.

 

[D6130]

If I was to take a wild guess I'd go for somewhere in the USA.

Really? Why? I'm not aware that bull-head rail was ever used in the USA....or that rural railroads were fenced!

Or did you forget to put the smiley or winky at the end of your comment?

 

[Ben Rhydding]

There was of course a very nice and famous one complete with stockade fencing just up the line at Hawes Junction (aka Garsdale), but to use it would have involved the NER running its branch train loco over Midland metals, which would seem to be a highly unlikely practice!

The majority of passenger trains between Hawes and Hawes Junction were NER through from Northallerton. The NER had a shed at Hawes Junction. For most of the line`s existence, the Midland only ran one passenger train a day to Hawes. This was through from Hellifield but only advertised as such on the return journey. Outbound, having reached Hawes Junction, it had to draw forward and set back into the bay platform over unlocked points. There was no facing junction on to the branch. During this manoeuvre, the loco would detach and turn on the turntable then run tender/ bunker first to Hawes, ready to be facing forwards back to Hellifield. NER tender engines arriving from Northallerton would be turned at Hawes Junction, tank engines possibly not. The turntable was also used by pilot engines coming off at Hawes Junction (later Garsdale) before returning to Carlisle or Hellifield. It is now at Keighley.

 

[John Webb]

Photos of Hawes station I've seen show the very different Midland Railway style diagonal fencing was used on at least one platform. Not entirely surprising seeing that it was the MR who built the station.
Could the photo be to the east of Hawes, perhaps?

 

[WesternLancer]

Photos of Hawes station I've seen show the very different Midland Railway style diagonal fencing was used on at least one platform. Not entirely surprising seeing that it was the MR who built the station.
Could the photo be to the east of Hawes, perhaps?

But did they use that fencing style lineside? The MR I mean. Definitely very common at stations as you say.

 

[John Webb]

But did they use that fencing style lineside? The MR I mean. Definitely very common at stations as you say.

I can't be certain on that point, my copy of 'Midland Style' has been mislaid. In Yorkshire at least the MR seems to have used traditional stone walls along their lines.
May perhaps point to the line in question being in an area where stone walls were not known, hence the need for timber fencing?

 

[WesternLancer]

I can't be certain on that point, my copy of 'Midland Style' has been mislaid. In Yorkshire at least the MR seems to have used traditional stone walls along their lines.
May perhaps point to the line in question being in an area where stone walls were not known, hence the need for timber fencing?

Thanks. That’s interesting. Stone walls would suggest no expense spared! Tho maybe costs would be different then.

 

[Rescars]

The majority of passenger trains between Hawes and Hawes Junction were NER through from Northallerton. The NER had a shed at Hawes Junction. For most of the line`s existence, the Midland only ran one passenger train a day to Hawes. This was through from Hellifield but only advertised as such on the return journey. Outbound, having reached Hawes Junction, it had to draw forward and set back into the bay platform over unlocked points. There was no facing junction on to the branch. During this manoeuvre, the loco would detach and turn on the turntable then run tender/ bunker first to Hawes, ready to be facing forwards back to Hellifield. NER tender engines arriving from Northallerton would be turned at Hawes Junction, tank engines possibly not. The turntable was also used by pilot engines coming off at Hawes Junction (later Garsdale) before returning to Carlisle or Hellifield. It is now at Keighley.

Thank you. Your explanation is much better than my assumptions about this. I bet the NER had to pay a princely sum for the use of the Midland's facilities though! Reverting to my earlier point, if the turntable was available, then this suggests the OP's photo of a tender-first loco depicts somewhere other than the Hawes branch.

 

[The exile]

Thanks. That’s interesting. Stone walls would suggest no expense spared! Tho maybe costs would be different then.

Presumably dry-stone, as used for centuries in areas where wood was at a premium and poorly suited anyway to stand up to what the weather had to offer. Plenty of skilled local labour available to do it and plenty of local material to do it with.

 

[LYradial]

I can't be certain on that point, my copy of 'Midland Style' has been mislaid. In Yorkshire at least the MR seems to have used traditional stone walls along their lines.
May perhaps point to the line in question being in an area where stone walls were not known, hence the need for timber fencing?

Midland style has post and five rail fence in its drawings of five standard fences.

a look through Casserly and Dorman midland album has a few scenes of its use, diagonal fencing as far as I can see only at or very near stations.

Some more remote areas have post and wire or scrubby hedges.

this likely doesn’t help much

 

[ThirteenArches]

I asked Sheerluck Holmes, and all he added was:

It's spring or autumn, from the trees. Probably spring as the vegetation doesn't look lank and damp.

It's morning or evening, and facing west or east, with the sun behind the photographer. Probably morning, because the girls' smocks are spotless.

Probably 1895 - 1910 from the dress.

The small girl on the fence has been sitting there some time from her fed- up expression, so the train is probably late, or Daddy's watch is fast (again).

The loco would appear to have a front outside axlebox, so a 2-4-0.

There is a small mound of cigar ash in the right background, which is of a type specially produced for Lord Huntingtower by Carlin's of Regent Street. You may remember his rôle in the Mystery of the Dancing Badger.

Hence the scene is somewhere in the Lincolnshire Alps. The eldest of the girls is probably Marjory Bigglescastle, who you will remember as the young lady who was so scandalously traduced by Bunny Carruthers, emerging with full honour intact and resulting in his leaving for Darkest Africa, where he was eaten by missionaries.

So still not a lot to go on.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I asked Sheerluck Holmes, and all he added was:

It's spring or autumn, from the trees. Probably spring as the vegetation doesn't look lank and damp.

It's morning or evening, and facing west or east, with the sun behind the photographer. Probably morning, because the girls' smocks are spotless.

Probably 1895 - 1910 from the dress.

The small girl on the fence has been sitting there some time from her fed- up expression, so the train is probably late, or Daddy's watch is fast (again).

The loco would appear to have a front outside axlebox, so a 2-4-0.

There is a small mound of cigar ash in the right background, which is of a type specially produced for Lord Huntingtower by Carlin's of Regent Street. You may remember his rôle in the Mystery of the Dancing Badger.

Hence the scene is somewhere in the Lincolnshire Alps. The eldest of the girls is probably Marjory Bigglescastle, who you will remember as the young lady who was so scandalously traduced by Bunny Carruthers, emerging with full honour intact and resulting in his leaving for Darkest Africa, where he was eaten by missionaries.

So still not a lot to go on.

Thanks for a good laugh!

 

[lazonbytunnel]

Thanks for all the replies on this one, much appreciated. Glad it sparked a bit of interest!

 

[WesternLancer]

Is there a location consensus?

 

[30907]

Is there a location consensus?

NER, probably towards the Pennine not the coast. Middleton-in Teesdale and Wearhead both possibilities because they lacked turntables.

EDIT: I have dug out an old (inherited) RCH map and noted Allenheads and Masham as other NER inland branches - however both had turntables so are eliminated.

 

[D6130]

NER, probably towards the Pennine not the coast. Middleton-in Teesdale and Wearhead both possibilities because they lacked turntables.

EDIT: I have dug out an old (inherited) RCH map and noted Allenheads and Masham as other NER inland branches - however both had turntables so are eliminated.

What about Alston? I don't think we've mentioned that possibility yet?

 

[Rescars]

What about Alston? I don't think we've mentioned that possibility yet?

I appreciate this might be a tender topic (sorry! ), but did Alston have a turntable?

 

[Harvester]

I appreciate this might be a tender topic (sorry! ), but did Alston have a turntable?

Yes and so did Haltwhistle. What about the Allendale branch as a possibility!

 

[30907]

Yes and so did Haltwhistle. What about the Allendale branch as a possibility!

Turntable at end of platform from photos. See #44.

 

[Zamracene749]

Deerness valley perhaps? Think that was single line, no idea about turntables.

 

[NER1621]

And Wearhead also had a turntable.