Unfortunately received a train penalty

[Surfer767]

The line is:

Bradford Forster Sq -> Frizinghall -> Shipley -> Apperley Bridge -> Kirkstall Forge -> Leeds

I got on a train at Frizinghall Station to Leeds Station with a single advanced ticket (that had Bradford Forster Square to Leeds designated). As the train set off, the conductor came to check tickets. He knew I got on at Frizinghall so questioned why I'd got a single advanced from Bradford forster sq. I wasn't sure how to respond.

And this was because, the first time I came across the ticket (a few weeks before), before purchasing it, I asked a Northern railway person in Leeds what single advanced means and if I purchase it then get on a train after the departure station. This would save me £1.50 so why not ask. He said "why not (confidently), you aren't doing a jounery longer than the stations listed, it's inclusive." So I thought no more, I started buying this ticket and was fine on the train, the conductors never questioned it. Even ones who knew I got on at Frizinghall.

So you can imagine as far as I'm concerned everything is fine. I know you will say but why not read the official rules. Look I find all the ticket types confusing so I asked a Northern railway person. I expected them to know. I use the trainline app where it doesn't explicitly say unless you click through.

Back to the story, the conductor explained to me what the ticket type means and I explained to him why I purchased it. I've subsequently looked in to the ticket conditions, and can see you have you get on at Bradford F Sq. But at the time, I was adamant to him that his colleague told me it's fine and that no one had stopped me before, so naturally I thought all is well. At this point, I apologised and offered to pay the full fare or a top up. But he said he will let me off this time due to a misunderstanding. He did however suggest writing an incident report where the Northern Railway will confirm the rules. I was happy with what he said but said OK, if you want. He explicitly said don't worry this is not a fine. On the slip he gave me it also said this is not a fine. As far as I could see it.. He wasn't being difficult nor a pr*ck but politely said let's get it confirmed. He didn't even ask me to pay the full fare or give me the £20 penalty. He clearly reiterated I'm not fining you.

To point out, rules is one thing, but we tend to put the actions over the conductors over it. Frizinghall is a penalty fare line. Plenty of people buy the ticket on board and the conductors are fine with it. Generally friendly and just want to do people right. But if you go by the rules everyone should use the machine or have a promise to pay if they can't get a ticket in time.

Moving on last week, I got a letter in the post highlighting the situation and they asked me for my side. I've never got one of these before. I genuinely thought they wanna hear my opinion and will correct it by saying, "We confirm this is the rule sir."

On Monday, I received £90 penalty plus £4.80 for a single leg of the journey. There is no info on appealing on the letter. If I don't pay within 14 days it will go to court. I'm baffled. I just feel wronged.

I accept that I had the wrong ticket. But should I not have been offered to pay the £20 penalty first? Why also was I advised by staff the journey is permitted? Why did the conductor not issue me with a fine straight away if he knew I'm fare dodging?

This conductor was also telling me how it is but let me off. If I asked him for a new ticket, he would have given one, he was saying let's get it verified. l feel like the incident team has read it as a non fare payer incident so given me £90 fine.

Also FYI on those who think I tried to pay less to save a bit. No! To get to Leeds from Frizinghall, there are direct and indirect trains. I prefer going direct only. So to prevent seeing the trains I don't want, my app is set to Bradford forster Square as my home station. I only see direct trains this way. When buying the ticket you get both prices for a anytime return or a single advanced. The first time I asked someone what the difference was. As far as I was concerned it was only that it is permitted on the times only.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Others will be along to provide specific advice soon, no doubt, but just to give you some background:

A few years ago, following a few high profile news stories, advice was issued to staff not to penalise people for starting long/stopping short on Advances where there was no intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

For example: At the time of writing, an Advance Single on the 12:55 from Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone on 19th October would cost £9.00. An Advance on that same train from Solihull (dep 13:04) to Marylebone would also cost £9.00, so you should have no issue using the Birmingham ticket from Solihull instead.

In your case, Northern seem to have made a commercial decision not to offer Advance tickets between Frizinghall and Leeds despite them being available from both Bradford Forster Square and Shipley to Leeds. As such, the fare they expect passengers travelling from Frizinghall to Leeds to pay is £4.80 Single. or £6.20/£7.30 for a same day return (depending on time of travel.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Paging @yorkie and @Watershed who I’m sure will have something to say about this.

I’m unconvinced this can be disposed of in this way. The “penalty” where one is found starting short where not permitted it an excess to the fare which allows it, and not a threat of prosecution.

 

[yorkie]

I got on a train from Frizinghall to Leeds Station with a single advanced ticket, with designated stations Bradford Forster Square to Leeds.

So as the train set off the conductor came to check tickets. He knew I got on at frizinghall so questioned why I'd got a single advanced from Bradford forster sq. I wasn't sure how to respond.

And this was because before I purchased the ticket (a few weeks before), I asked a Northern railway person in Leeds what single advanced means and if I purchase it then can I get on a train after the departure station. He said why not, you aren't doing a jounery longer that the stations, it's inclusive. So I thought no more, I bought it a few times and was fine on the train, the conductors never questioned it. Even ones who knew I got on at frizinghall.

So you can imagine as far as I'm concerned everything is fine. I know you will say but why not read the official rules. I find all the variant ticket types confusing so guess what I asked a Northern railway person. I expected them to know.

So anyway explained to me what the ticket means and I explained my story. I use the train line app where it didn't explicitly say. Later when I looked in to it further I can see what the conditions are of the ticket. And accept that its invalid to use.

But at the time I was adamant his colleague told me it's fine and no one had stopped me so you can understand my negligence. I said I was happy to pay the full fare or top up. He said I'll send an incident report, I won't fine you. But they will confirm the rules to you. I said I appreciate that. He gave me an incident report too, little receipt, which also mentioned this is not a fine. As far as I could see it.. He wasn't being difficult nor a pr*ck but politely said let's get it confirmed. He also said it's fine this time but next time just make sure. He didn't even offer me to pay the full fare or 20 quid fine. He clearly reiterated I'm not fining you.

So recently I got a letter in the post asking me to highlight what happened. I explained as above. Now I have got a 90 pound fine. No info on appeal and if I don't pay it will go to court. I'm baffled.

I accept that the rules of the ticket show that I had the wrong ticket. But should I not have first been offered to pay a fine?

I feel like saying OK I had the wrong ticket. But firstly why did your guy say to me don't worry we aren't fining you. Now you have. If he told me he will fine me.. I'd do something earlier. Also although our station is fine paying line, plenty of times they happily offer tickets. I know if I said sorry no ticket he would have issued me with one. I feel like he intended good but the incident team has read it as a non fare payer incident so given me £90 fine.

Also FYI on those who think I tried to pay less to save a bit. No! To get to Leeds there are direct and indirect trains. I prefer going direct only. So to prevent seeing the trains I don't want, my app is set to Bradford forster Square as my home station. I only see direct trains this way.

Were you on the correct timed train at the correct date, but merely starting short?

Regarding the £90, is this an out of court settlement fee, to avoid the matter going to court? This may be dressed up with some alternative language but unless a court has found you guilty, the word "fine" shouldn't be used.

Take a good read of @Marshmallow4's thread:

Starting Short - Advanced (Northern)

Good Morning, I had an issue with my train journey yesterday and was wondering what will likely be the outcome. After being told by a ticket inspector earlier this year that it would be cheaper for me to get a ticket from Leeds to York and het on at Micklefield, I have recently been doing...

www.railforums.co.uk

In particular:

I have the following in an email from Northern in 2017, which I keep in case of issues:

However, you will be able to purchase an advance ticket from Crewe to Manchester and get on at <Your station without advances>.

Firstly I wouldn't agree to pay a fine as this means you have been found guilty of a criminal act.

Secondly the correct action when someone breaks their journey, when not permitted to do so, is only to charge an excess fare, priced as the difference between the fare paid and the lowest priced fare that would have enabled the actual journey made; in practice virtually no such excess fares are issued in reality.

Thirdly Northern have previously stated this is permitted; the letter received by @Puffing Devil is relevant regardless of the fact it's a different journey.

There is also the matter raised by @Bletchleyite

If Northern attempt to prosecute you, I would advise not replying until you have sought advice from us. The matter should be fought in my opinion.

 

[Surfer767]

Were you on the correct timed train at the correct date, but merely starting short?

Yes to both.

Regarding the £90, is this an out of court settlement fee, to avoid the matter going to court? This may be dressed up with some alternative language but unless a court has found you guilty, the word "fine" shouldn't be used.

That's right too.. It's the £90 out of court settlement.

Seems like my situation is the same as Marshmallows except that I showed the conductor the name of the ticket 'Advance Single', he advised me on seeing this.

 

[XAM2175]

At this point, I apologised and offered to pay the full fare or a top up. But he said he will let me off this time due to a misunderstanding. He did however suggest writing an incident report where the Northern Railway will confirm the rules. I was happy with what he said but said OK, if you want. He explicitly said don't worry this is not a fine. On the slip he gave me it also said this is not a fine. As far as I could see it.. He wasn't being difficult nor a pr*ck but politely said let's get it confirmed. He didn't even ask me to pay the full fare or give me the £20 penalty. He clearly reiterated I'm not fining you.

What he actually did was lie to you so that he could get your details without your becoming suspicious.

 

[Huntergreed]

What he actually did was lie to you so that he could get your details without your becoming suspicious.

Is that lawful (dishonesty for the purposes of data gathering)?

 

[Titfield]

One of the issues here is that he may not have "lied" (in the strict sense of the word) but was disingenuous:

1) A penalty fare is NOT a fine. (As has been said many times)
2) A Travel Irregularity Report does not always lead to a request for an explanation from the passenger or a request for the payment of an out of court settlement fee otherwise the matter would go to Court.

A concern expressed by many on this forum is this course of action is followed by staff because it diffuses what could be a confrontational situation but, crucially this is not explained to the passenger, could (some will say almost certainly) lead to the passenger being asked to pay a sum of money which in the eyes of the passenger is a "fine" (but not legally so) or face having to go to court and all that entails. The passenger is not informed of the real likely consequences of a Travel Irregularity Report being completed.

We have heard of staff using the phrase "let you off this time" (or similar) which is misleading. It could be argued that this is a lie but using that to persuade the TOC or their agent to discontinue or reduce the action they are taking is highly unlikely.

Unless a passenger knows the rules to a high degree they are unlikely to know when a Penalty fare should be applied. TOC staff use this naivety to their advantage.

 

[Haywain]

This conductor was also telling me how it is but let me off.

Did he say ‘I’m letting you off’, or was it ‘I’m not going to issue you a penalty fare’? The two are quite different.

 

[jamiearmley]

If he was a conductor, he wouldn't be able to issue a penalty fare. It's not within a Northern conductors gift to do so. (Im not aware of any Conductor grades which can, but i could be wrong on that. I am certain that Northern conductors cannot, however. ).

 

[Surfer767]

Did he say ‘I’m letting you off’, or was it ‘I’m not going to issue you a penalty fare’? The two are quite different.

He said I'll let you off this time and also said I won't fine you. Looks like he meant won't issue a penalty fare. Legally they may be different but colloquially the same I guess.

 

[30907]

Also FYI on those who think I tried to pay less to save a bit. No! To get to Leeds from Frizinghall, there are direct and indirect trains. I prefer going direct only. So to prevent seeing the trains I don't want, my app is set to Bradford forster Square as my home station. I only see direct trains this way. When buying the ticket you get both prices for a anytime return or a single advanced. The first time I asked someone what the difference was. As far as I was concerned it was only that it is permitted on the times only.

If you set Forster Square as your departure station, as well as trains from Frizinghall, it will show:
routes involving a walk across Bradford
trains that do not stop and Frizinghall (a couple only)
journeys with a change at Shipley (not very many)

I am a bit puzzled by your reasoning, and it may have contributed to an unfortunate choice.

 

[Surfer767]

If you set Forster Square as your departure station, as well as trains from Frizinghall, it will show:
routes involving a walk across Bradford
trains that do not stop and Frizinghall (a couple only)
journeys with a change at Shipley (not very many)

I am a bit puzzled by your reasoning, and it may have contributed to an unfortunate choice.

My app must be configured to show direct trains only. Anyhow I have decided to pay the fine as it's just not worth the battle. The case will be based on a matter of law and not dishonesty of people. The lay magistrates are also clueless to the reality of using trains.

Lesson learnt is read and re-read the conditions and if you need clarification take the person's name!

Funny thing is over the weekend, I asked the conductor if I could have a discount as I'm travelling with my partner. I'm not sure what the ticket is called. She said do you mean duo. In checking to see if other discounts were available. She realised duo is only available off peak. She then resorted to saying, oh I didn't know that, I've been issuing duo at peak times.

So there you go another example of how they teach them to use a ticket machine and the rest is homework for themselves.

 

[30907]

My app must be configured to show direct trains only.

That explains it .

Funny thing is over the weekend, I asked the conductor if I could have a discount as I'm travelling with my partner. I'm not sure what the ticket is called. She said do you mean duo. In checking to see if other discounts were available. She realised duo is only available off peak. She then resorted to saying, oh I didn't know that, I've been issuing duo at peak times.

I am surprised the machines allow this - online systems certainly don't.

 

[Snow1964]

He said I'll let you off this time and also said I won't fine you. Looks like he meant won't issue a penalty fare. Legally they may be different but colloquially the same I guess.

There is a world of difference between the Inspector saying I won’t fine you and You won’t get a fine. Although a passenger is unlikely to know the legal difference, and think they are same.

It is subtle, but it is the named person on the penalty letter is different to the Inspector, so not I will not, but my company might…

In the second, they are effectively removing the court option (the court is not likely to use prison or community service, so fine is all that is realistically left if court is chosen), but passenger could still get the out of court option with the about £90 fee

 

[Doubleplus]

There is a world of difference between the Inspector saying I won’t fine you and You won’t get a fine. Although a passenger is unlikely to know the legal difference, and think they are same.

It is subtle, but it is the named person on the penalty letter is different to the Inspector, so not I will not, but my company might…

It doesn’t seem like too much to ask that staff be forbidden from making intentionally deceptive and misleading statements like that, surely. Or that the import of a statement like “I won’t fine you” be legally binding on the company who they represent.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The lay magistrates are also clueless to the reality of using trains.

Quite the sweeping statement there. You would be surprised by the number of JPs who actually use the rail network and understand the issues and associated laws.

 

[Titfield]

Quite the sweeping statement there. You would be surprised by the number of JPs who actually use the rail network and understand the issues and associated laws.

Yes and there are JPs who have worked (past tense) in the travel and transport industries and take a keen interest in all matters travel and transport related.