PeterGriffin
New Member
- Joined
- 15 Oct 2016
- Messages
- 1
I regularly travel with Great Western Railway, usually between Reading and London Paddington. Until now I have always found the on-train staff to be polite and helpful, but recently I had a rather unpleasant encounter with a Train Manager, and I would appreciate people's advice.
I was travelling from Reading to Paddington on a HST with one of the "old-style" buffet cars (with the larger buffet, and First Class seating making up the rest of the car). The train was in the usual formation, with First Class at the front of the train. I had a Standard Class ticket and was seated in the last-but-one carriage before the buffet car. Around 10 minutes before we arrived at Paddington, the Train Manager came through my carriage (walking towards the front of the train) and inspected everyone's ticket. When he inspected my ticket, things were as normal, and perfectly cordial: we thanked each other, and he stamped my ticket with one of those clipper tools which "indents" the current date and time onto the ticket.
Once we were within a few minutes of Paddington, I decided that I wanted to stand by a door and get as far forward on the train as possible, as I was in something of a hurry and wanted to be able to get onto the Bakerloo Line as quickly as possible once the train had arrived. I took my bag and went into the last carriage before the buffet car. The Train Manager was now inspecting tickets in that carriage, again moving forward, and was about halfway along when I got to where he was.
I was more-or-less expecting him just to let me past as soon as he was able to (there were plenty of free seats wbere he could have done this), but was not in any way insistent with my body language, and did not say anything to him until he turned round and asked me, rather pointedly, what I was doing. I said, as politely as it's possible to do, that I'd like to get onto the Underground quickly, and asked him if he'd be so kind as to allow me to wait at the front of the First Class area in the vestibule, even though I had a Standard Ticket. (Some Train Managers are nice enough to let you do this; others say no, and they are of course perfectly within their rights to do so.)
He said that no, it was for First Class ticket holders only, so I said (again as politely as you please) that not to worry, I'd just wait "there" (gesturing clearly towards the front of the carriage we were in, i.e. the vestibule just before the buffet car). At this point I was surprised to be told that I wasn't allowed to do this because the buffet was closed, and I would have to go back and wait in the previous vestibule or sit down. I was still polite, but pointed out that it was still a Standard Class area there, and that there were people already standing there (not so many that there was any kind of safety issue that would have been exacerbated by one more person).
At this point, he accused me of being rude, which I emphatically had not been even remotely, and again told me to sit down in a manner that was borderline aggressive and entirely unncessary. I asked him why I could not wait there when everyone else was allowed to, and I had used that door on hundreds of previous occasions with no issue, and he would not give a reason. Perhaps I should simply have done what he said at this point, but I am not accustomed to being spoken to in that manner and being told that I can't do things that my ticket entitles me to do, that everyone else is allowed to do, and that I have always been allowed to do previously.
So I said (still politely) that if he would not let me past then I would simply follow him to the vestibule as he was inspecting tickets, and did so, at a distance and not in a way that could in any way be described as intimidating. Nonetheless, this did not go down well. I did not intend to speak to him again unless he spoke to me, but he kept turning round and telling me to sit down, and I kept politely refusing, and he eventually demanded to see my ticket. I pointed out that he had just stamped it, but he denied all knowledge of this, and insisted on seeing it again. I produced it, but by this point his manner was such that I was worried that he would confiscate it on some pretext and I would not be able to get through the barriers, so I held it so that he could see it but was reluctant to let him actually take it.
I was not in any way aggressive about this, but he snatched it with such force that it became scrunched up. He then realised (if he hadn't already) that he had indeed stamped it, so instead of stamping it again, he drew a line on it with a pen, and gave it back to me as if that constituted some kind of victory for him (I don't know whether a stamp and a drawn line normally means that your ticket has been inspected twice on different journeys, and whether this could have potentially caused me problems further on; it was a Day Travelcard if that makes a difference).
At this point, taken aback but still in no way intimidating, I said (truthfully in my view) that he was the most officious jobsworth that I had ever come across (that is the only thing I said throughout the encounter that could be deemed to be in any way forceful), to which he said he'd heard all the insults (yes, I'm sure he has, but I didn't say that). I asked for his name and said I would be making a complaint, and he gave it to me (I never actually took it down, but I have recorded the train time).
I continued to follow him down the carriage (again without violating his personal space), with him continuing to turn round and tell me to sit down, and me simply saying "no", and that I was going to wait by the door ahead. When we got almost to the end of the carriage, he asked what I thought was a member of the pubilc to intervene, saying that I was "stalking" him, and this new gentleman did so, telling me that the Train Manager was "just doing his job". I explained the situation to him, asking him whether he planned to use the door by the buffet to exit the train ("Yes"), and whether he thought it was reasonable that the Train Manager was telling me that I couldn't when my ticket entitled me to ("I wasn't there at the beginning of the conversation").
Once he realised that I wasn't some thug who didn't have a ticket or whatever, he disclosed that he was an off-duty police officer (known to the Train Manager because he often used that train). Presumably he had not at first told me that he was a police officer to see if I would kick off, which of course I didn't. By this time, the Train Manager had moved on to the next carriage, and I was standing by the door before the buffet, which is all I had ever wanted to do. The officer and I had a nice chat for the remaining couple of minutes of the journey, and then both of us and a load of other people left by the Forbidden Door.
At no point did I swear. At no point did I raise my voice. At no point was I aggressive or intimidating. I started out as polite as you could be, as I always am with railway staff, and stayed about as polite as I would expect a reasonable person to remain in the circumstances. I was not drunk.
What I have given you is an entirely factual account, with nothing left out. I do not expect you to believe some random guy on the Internet, and if someone else had posted an account like this then I may well have been sceptical and wondered if there had been more to it. All I can really do is promise that there wasn't, and ask that anyone who is kind enough to advise me on this does so on the assumption that what I am saying is the truth and nothing but the truth.
I have tried to stick to just the facts, and I will not comment on why I think the Train Manager behaved in the way he did, or what I think he was trying to prove, etc. All I will say is that I do not feel that this Train Manager acted appropriately towards me. I am a tall, healthy, not particularly sensitive man in his 30s and I can take this kind of nonsense without undue trauma, but I feel that if this Train Manager can engineer this kind of confrontation with me (I have never had anything like this happen before), then he can do it with anyone, and I do not like the thought of him treating more vulnerable members of society in a similar way.
That is why I am posting on here and am minded to make a complaint to Great Western Railway about his conduct. But first, I would be grateful if anyone who has read this far (thanks, and sorry about the length!) could answer the following.
1) Was the Train Manager entitled to tell me to go back to the previous vestibule or take a seat without giving me any reason, when I had been nothing but polite to him? In your view, should I have complied? Would you have done so in the same situation, and would you have been happy to have been singled out and told you couldn't do something that everyone else was being allowed to do? Was he entitled to forcefully snatch my ticket from me, when I was already displaying it to him and he could already clearly see that it had been stamped by him?
2) Is there any point in complaining when it's the Train Manager's word against mine? If he has numerous other complaints against him for similar behaviour (and I wouldn't be at all surprised), can discipline be taken against him even if all the complaints are his word against that of the passenger(s)? In many ways I would be content if he was merely notified that I had complained about him, even if it was then binned: would that be likely to happen in this instance, or would it not even get to that stage? Would the police officer be asked about what had happened?
3) I am a bit worried about how a complaint would affect my chances, should I be caught travelling without the correct ticket for my journey one day. Obviously I intend to always have the right ticket, but if for whatever reason I am caught without that one day, then is it possible that this complaint would somehow cause me to be looked upon less favourably? I can imagine that this Train Manager may be quite vindictive; if he finds out that I have complained about him, is it possible for him to somehow get a note put on the system against my details to the effect of "throw the book at him if you catch him"? Obviously this shouldn't happen, but I am asking whether in practice it is possible. As I say, I do not intend to evade any fares, but it is possible that I will make a mistake at some point, because we all do.
4) Would you make a complaint if you were in my situation? Anyone who thinks the Train Manager was in the wrong: do you think I should nonetheless just put it down to experience and move on, or do you agree with me that this kind of person needs to be dealt with, and that I should persevere?
5) Please could those who have previously complained to GWR advise me on which email address(es) they have had the most success with? On other sites, I have seen advice which suggests emailing fgwfeedback@firstgroup.com (presumably that has changed now), which apparently is unlikely to get a decent response, but does at least create a case number. Then, supposedly, it's a case of escalating (if necessary) to Jason.Ness@firstgroup.com, copied to MarkHopwood.FGW-MD@firstgroup.com, and then (if still not resolved satisfactorily) advice@passengerfocus.org.uk. I don't mind going round the houses in this way (though of course it shouldn't be necessary), but it would be useful to know which houses are likely to be the most effective.
I would be grateful for any advice, even if it's "You were being an idiot, do as you're told in future" (though I suppose I would like anyone who says such a thing to point out just how unreasonable a Train Manager's demands must be before they consider it acceptable to "disobey" them). I am really not someone who goes round trying to cause these sorts of situations, nor am I in any way a serial complainer. I know that Train Managers have a difficult job, and I detest the sort of thug who gives them abuse when it is them who has done something wrong by not having the right ticket or being rowdy.
But every now and then with these professions which involve some kind of authority over the public, you get these bad apples who are bullies, have the wrong attitude, and abuse their position. If this Train Manager normally behaves in the kind of way that he did today, then I do not believe that he should be in a job like that, and I intend to do what I can to protect others from him.
Perhaps that sounds excessive given the relative triviality of tonight's incident, but I probably haven't adequately communicated the needless unpleasantness of his demeanour throughout the encounter, and the eagerness with which he told me I couldn't do something, apparently just for the heck of it (which I find disturbing). I believe that he is an example of an impossible person, and while we have to live with people like that in our society, and (as with others) it's a good thing if they're employed, I do not feel that they should be doing jobs where they are trusted to interact with the public in a fair and reasonable way.
Thanks for reading, and any advice people can give me.
TLDR: A GWR Train Manager recently told me that I was not allowed to stand by a door that was in a Standard Class area, and that other passengers were being allowed to stand by. He didn't give a reason and was needlessly combative. I had the right ticket and was not in any way rude to him. He got an off-duty police officer involved, despite there obviously being no danger to his safety and no law being broken. I do not like the thought of this Train Manager treating other members of the public in this way; would I be wasting my time if I complained about him? Thanks!
I was travelling from Reading to Paddington on a HST with one of the "old-style" buffet cars (with the larger buffet, and First Class seating making up the rest of the car). The train was in the usual formation, with First Class at the front of the train. I had a Standard Class ticket and was seated in the last-but-one carriage before the buffet car. Around 10 minutes before we arrived at Paddington, the Train Manager came through my carriage (walking towards the front of the train) and inspected everyone's ticket. When he inspected my ticket, things were as normal, and perfectly cordial: we thanked each other, and he stamped my ticket with one of those clipper tools which "indents" the current date and time onto the ticket.
Once we were within a few minutes of Paddington, I decided that I wanted to stand by a door and get as far forward on the train as possible, as I was in something of a hurry and wanted to be able to get onto the Bakerloo Line as quickly as possible once the train had arrived. I took my bag and went into the last carriage before the buffet car. The Train Manager was now inspecting tickets in that carriage, again moving forward, and was about halfway along when I got to where he was.
I was more-or-less expecting him just to let me past as soon as he was able to (there were plenty of free seats wbere he could have done this), but was not in any way insistent with my body language, and did not say anything to him until he turned round and asked me, rather pointedly, what I was doing. I said, as politely as it's possible to do, that I'd like to get onto the Underground quickly, and asked him if he'd be so kind as to allow me to wait at the front of the First Class area in the vestibule, even though I had a Standard Ticket. (Some Train Managers are nice enough to let you do this; others say no, and they are of course perfectly within their rights to do so.)
He said that no, it was for First Class ticket holders only, so I said (again as politely as you please) that not to worry, I'd just wait "there" (gesturing clearly towards the front of the carriage we were in, i.e. the vestibule just before the buffet car). At this point I was surprised to be told that I wasn't allowed to do this because the buffet was closed, and I would have to go back and wait in the previous vestibule or sit down. I was still polite, but pointed out that it was still a Standard Class area there, and that there were people already standing there (not so many that there was any kind of safety issue that would have been exacerbated by one more person).
At this point, he accused me of being rude, which I emphatically had not been even remotely, and again told me to sit down in a manner that was borderline aggressive and entirely unncessary. I asked him why I could not wait there when everyone else was allowed to, and I had used that door on hundreds of previous occasions with no issue, and he would not give a reason. Perhaps I should simply have done what he said at this point, but I am not accustomed to being spoken to in that manner and being told that I can't do things that my ticket entitles me to do, that everyone else is allowed to do, and that I have always been allowed to do previously.
So I said (still politely) that if he would not let me past then I would simply follow him to the vestibule as he was inspecting tickets, and did so, at a distance and not in a way that could in any way be described as intimidating. Nonetheless, this did not go down well. I did not intend to speak to him again unless he spoke to me, but he kept turning round and telling me to sit down, and I kept politely refusing, and he eventually demanded to see my ticket. I pointed out that he had just stamped it, but he denied all knowledge of this, and insisted on seeing it again. I produced it, but by this point his manner was such that I was worried that he would confiscate it on some pretext and I would not be able to get through the barriers, so I held it so that he could see it but was reluctant to let him actually take it.
I was not in any way aggressive about this, but he snatched it with such force that it became scrunched up. He then realised (if he hadn't already) that he had indeed stamped it, so instead of stamping it again, he drew a line on it with a pen, and gave it back to me as if that constituted some kind of victory for him (I don't know whether a stamp and a drawn line normally means that your ticket has been inspected twice on different journeys, and whether this could have potentially caused me problems further on; it was a Day Travelcard if that makes a difference).
At this point, taken aback but still in no way intimidating, I said (truthfully in my view) that he was the most officious jobsworth that I had ever come across (that is the only thing I said throughout the encounter that could be deemed to be in any way forceful), to which he said he'd heard all the insults (yes, I'm sure he has, but I didn't say that). I asked for his name and said I would be making a complaint, and he gave it to me (I never actually took it down, but I have recorded the train time).
I continued to follow him down the carriage (again without violating his personal space), with him continuing to turn round and tell me to sit down, and me simply saying "no", and that I was going to wait by the door ahead. When we got almost to the end of the carriage, he asked what I thought was a member of the pubilc to intervene, saying that I was "stalking" him, and this new gentleman did so, telling me that the Train Manager was "just doing his job". I explained the situation to him, asking him whether he planned to use the door by the buffet to exit the train ("Yes"), and whether he thought it was reasonable that the Train Manager was telling me that I couldn't when my ticket entitled me to ("I wasn't there at the beginning of the conversation").
Once he realised that I wasn't some thug who didn't have a ticket or whatever, he disclosed that he was an off-duty police officer (known to the Train Manager because he often used that train). Presumably he had not at first told me that he was a police officer to see if I would kick off, which of course I didn't. By this time, the Train Manager had moved on to the next carriage, and I was standing by the door before the buffet, which is all I had ever wanted to do. The officer and I had a nice chat for the remaining couple of minutes of the journey, and then both of us and a load of other people left by the Forbidden Door.
At no point did I swear. At no point did I raise my voice. At no point was I aggressive or intimidating. I started out as polite as you could be, as I always am with railway staff, and stayed about as polite as I would expect a reasonable person to remain in the circumstances. I was not drunk.
What I have given you is an entirely factual account, with nothing left out. I do not expect you to believe some random guy on the Internet, and if someone else had posted an account like this then I may well have been sceptical and wondered if there had been more to it. All I can really do is promise that there wasn't, and ask that anyone who is kind enough to advise me on this does so on the assumption that what I am saying is the truth and nothing but the truth.
I have tried to stick to just the facts, and I will not comment on why I think the Train Manager behaved in the way he did, or what I think he was trying to prove, etc. All I will say is that I do not feel that this Train Manager acted appropriately towards me. I am a tall, healthy, not particularly sensitive man in his 30s and I can take this kind of nonsense without undue trauma, but I feel that if this Train Manager can engineer this kind of confrontation with me (I have never had anything like this happen before), then he can do it with anyone, and I do not like the thought of him treating more vulnerable members of society in a similar way.
That is why I am posting on here and am minded to make a complaint to Great Western Railway about his conduct. But first, I would be grateful if anyone who has read this far (thanks, and sorry about the length!) could answer the following.
1) Was the Train Manager entitled to tell me to go back to the previous vestibule or take a seat without giving me any reason, when I had been nothing but polite to him? In your view, should I have complied? Would you have done so in the same situation, and would you have been happy to have been singled out and told you couldn't do something that everyone else was being allowed to do? Was he entitled to forcefully snatch my ticket from me, when I was already displaying it to him and he could already clearly see that it had been stamped by him?
2) Is there any point in complaining when it's the Train Manager's word against mine? If he has numerous other complaints against him for similar behaviour (and I wouldn't be at all surprised), can discipline be taken against him even if all the complaints are his word against that of the passenger(s)? In many ways I would be content if he was merely notified that I had complained about him, even if it was then binned: would that be likely to happen in this instance, or would it not even get to that stage? Would the police officer be asked about what had happened?
3) I am a bit worried about how a complaint would affect my chances, should I be caught travelling without the correct ticket for my journey one day. Obviously I intend to always have the right ticket, but if for whatever reason I am caught without that one day, then is it possible that this complaint would somehow cause me to be looked upon less favourably? I can imagine that this Train Manager may be quite vindictive; if he finds out that I have complained about him, is it possible for him to somehow get a note put on the system against my details to the effect of "throw the book at him if you catch him"? Obviously this shouldn't happen, but I am asking whether in practice it is possible. As I say, I do not intend to evade any fares, but it is possible that I will make a mistake at some point, because we all do.
4) Would you make a complaint if you were in my situation? Anyone who thinks the Train Manager was in the wrong: do you think I should nonetheless just put it down to experience and move on, or do you agree with me that this kind of person needs to be dealt with, and that I should persevere?
5) Please could those who have previously complained to GWR advise me on which email address(es) they have had the most success with? On other sites, I have seen advice which suggests emailing fgwfeedback@firstgroup.com (presumably that has changed now), which apparently is unlikely to get a decent response, but does at least create a case number. Then, supposedly, it's a case of escalating (if necessary) to Jason.Ness@firstgroup.com, copied to MarkHopwood.FGW-MD@firstgroup.com, and then (if still not resolved satisfactorily) advice@passengerfocus.org.uk. I don't mind going round the houses in this way (though of course it shouldn't be necessary), but it would be useful to know which houses are likely to be the most effective.
I would be grateful for any advice, even if it's "You were being an idiot, do as you're told in future" (though I suppose I would like anyone who says such a thing to point out just how unreasonable a Train Manager's demands must be before they consider it acceptable to "disobey" them). I am really not someone who goes round trying to cause these sorts of situations, nor am I in any way a serial complainer. I know that Train Managers have a difficult job, and I detest the sort of thug who gives them abuse when it is them who has done something wrong by not having the right ticket or being rowdy.
But every now and then with these professions which involve some kind of authority over the public, you get these bad apples who are bullies, have the wrong attitude, and abuse their position. If this Train Manager normally behaves in the kind of way that he did today, then I do not believe that he should be in a job like that, and I intend to do what I can to protect others from him.
Perhaps that sounds excessive given the relative triviality of tonight's incident, but I probably haven't adequately communicated the needless unpleasantness of his demeanour throughout the encounter, and the eagerness with which he told me I couldn't do something, apparently just for the heck of it (which I find disturbing). I believe that he is an example of an impossible person, and while we have to live with people like that in our society, and (as with others) it's a good thing if they're employed, I do not feel that they should be doing jobs where they are trusted to interact with the public in a fair and reasonable way.
Thanks for reading, and any advice people can give me.
TLDR: A GWR Train Manager recently told me that I was not allowed to stand by a door that was in a Standard Class area, and that other passengers were being allowed to stand by. He didn't give a reason and was needlessly combative. I had the right ticket and was not in any way rude to him. He got an off-duty police officer involved, despite there obviously being no danger to his safety and no law being broken. I do not like the thought of this Train Manager treating other members of the public in this way; would I be wasting my time if I complained about him? Thanks!
