Unexpectedly short platforms & getting off the train

[Tibbs]

Interesting one last night. Got the 17:30 Euston to Watford Train. I was in the rear 4 cars.

Unusually it stopped on the fast platform at H&W then the same at Bushey. The train stopped for about a minute without opening the doors (on our section at least), after that there was an announcement saying 'please move forward from this part of the train as this station had short platforms'. Cue half the rear train walking through the train to get off. About 30 seconds after the announcement the train was off to Watford. I'd be surprised if any of the people moving forward got off the train as I was in carriage 2 of 4.

Now we've had threads about people being left on the platform, but this is a first for me.

Now, getting back from Watford to Bushey isn't hugely problematic, but given that all the passengers are technically outside the law having (unwillingly) over travelled their ticket, what should they do? I was thinking get the guard to issue them with a return between Bushey and Watford Junction to cover the over distance and the journey back?

I was going to ask about the toc's responsibility to allow people off at their chosen stop, but I don't imagine they have any.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting one last night. Got the 17:30 Euston to Watford Train. I was in the rear 4 cars.

Unusually it stopped on the fast platform at H&W then the same at Bushey. The train stopped for about a minute without opening the doors (on our section at least), after that there was an announcement saying 'please move forward from this part of the train as this station had short platforms'. Cue half the rear train walking through the train to get off. About 30 seconds after the announcement the train was off to Watford. I'd be surprised if any of the people moving forward got off the train as I was in carriage 2 of 4

I have had that happen at Wembley Central when LM makes extra stops due to events at Wembley stadium. The guard made announcements after every station to tell people to move through the train.

 

[matchmaker]

That's not a short platform...

This is a short platform:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/68566-shortest-platform-on-network-rails-network/

Extract from Network Rail's intranet site: -



Small, put perfectly formed



The newly opened Conon Bridge station is the smallest on the network at just 15 metres long

 

[northwichcat]

That's not a short platform...

This is a short platform:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/68566-shortest-platform-on-network-rails-network/

You need some Pacers at Conon Street then, the platform's just about long enough for people in the front or rear carriage to alight.

 

[oversteer]

Last time I was on a 350 that did that (it was booked to stop at Bushey) it got diverted onto the fast and then the guard announced we were unable to stop at Bushey and passengers would have to travel back from Watford Junction..


There was lots of tutting.

 

[Tibbs]

Interestingly (now I think about it) the automated announcement did say after Harrow that the next station was going to be Watford Junction, which I did think was odd at the time.

 

[Poggs]

Interesting one last night. Got the 17:30 Euston to Watford Train. I was in the rear 4 cars.

Unusually it stopped on the fast platform at H&W then the same at Bushey. The train stopped for about a minute without opening the doors (on our section at least), after that there was an announcement saying 'please move forward from this part of the train as this station had short platforms'. Cue half the rear train walking through the train to get off. About 30 seconds after the announcement the train was off to Watford. I'd be surprised if any of the people moving forward got off the train as I was in carriage 2 of 4.

Now we've had threads about people being left on the platform, but this is a first for me.

Now, getting back from Watford to Bushey isn't hugely problematic, but given that all the passengers are technically outside the law having (unwillingly) over travelled their ticket, what should they do? I was thinking get the guard to issue them with a return between Bushey and Watford Junction to cover the over distance and the journey back?

I was going to ask about the toc's responsibility to allow people off at their chosen stop, but I don't imagine they have any.

Platform 10 can only be accessed from the down fast line at Watford at the moment (see http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/WJ/1 for a handy real-time diagram), so the options for those few Euston - Watford services are limited.

Whilst the passengers may be technically outside the law, it's not the sort of thing that anyone will take action against a passenger over. Chances are the guard or driver will have told London Midland control and/or the signaller what's going on and, even if an RPI came across a bunch of people travelling Watford - Bushey without a valid ticket, at least one person would explain the circumstances.

 

[Tibbs]

Platform 10 can only be accessed from the down fast line at Watford at the moment (see http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/WJ/1 for a handy real-time diagram), so the options for those few Euston - Watford services are limited.

Whilst the passengers may be technically outside the law, it's not the sort of thing that anyone will take action against a passenger over. Chances are the guard or driver will have told London Midland control and/or the signaller what's going on and, even if an RPI came across a bunch of people travelling Watford - Bushey without a valid ticket, at least one person would explain the circumstances.

I think we've established that expecting (or hoping for) leniency from an RPI can be risky at best. I'm interested to know what the 'covers all bases' proper official CYA way of sorting out the journey would be. Not having a valid ticket is an strict liability offence remember.

Especially when the return journey is likely to be on another TOC (LO) - we know that conversations that start with 'but the man on the platform said...' gets viewed with the same seriousness as 'the voices in my head told me...'

 

[TDK]

Interesting one last night. Got the 17:30 Euston to Watford Train. I was in the rear 4 cars.

Unusually it stopped on the fast platform at H&W then the same at Bushey. The train stopped for about a minute without opening the doors (on our section at least), after that there was an announcement saying 'please move forward from this part of the train as this station had short platforms'. Cue half the rear train walking through the train to get off. About 30 seconds after the announcement the train was off to Watford. I'd be surprised if any of the people moving forward got off the train as I was in carriage 2 of 4.

Now we've had threads about people being left on the platform, but this is a first for me.

Now, getting back from Watford to Bushey isn't hugely problematic, but given that all the passengers are technically outside the law having (unwillingly) over travelled their ticket, what should they do? I was thinking get the guard to issue them with a return between Bushey and Watford Junction to cover the over distance and the journey back?

I was going to ask about the toc's responsibility to allow people off at their chosen stop, but I don't imagine they have any.

I thought the 350's had SDO? Maybe not

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the 350's had SDO? Maybe not

350s do. 185s don't.

 

[MCR247]

350s do. 185s don't.

I thought 350s just had unit deselect?

 

[jopsuk]

2002 I travelled to Westport, Ireland by train. At the terminus, I opened the door- and noticed there was no platform before I stepped out. No SDO, no announcement that the train was longer than the platform...

 

[jb]

Now we've had threads about people being left on the platform, but this is a first for me.

Happens on pretty much every SWT 10-car 444 or 12-car 450 that stops at Clapham Junction Platform 7, every day. This is despite what seems like non-stop announcements from Woking.

 

[northwichcat]

2002 I travelled to Westport, Ireland by train. At the terminus, I opened the door- and noticed there was no platform before I stepped out. No SDO, no announcement that the train was longer than the platform...

When I did Munich-Salzburg on a DB Regio train one station the train called at eastbound had no platform at all adjoining the track the train was on. The passengers waiting to board were on a short platform next to the station building and had to walk across another track to get to the train. I seem to recall the same station had a car park with no fencing between it and the track.

 

[Pumbaa]

350s do. 185s don't.

No, all Desiros have unit deselect (UDS).

 

[Tibbs]

But to get back onto the main question, what is the official line if someone can't get off the train in time through no fault of their own, as in this situation?

Should they be issued a ticket to cover the unintended portion of the journey, and is there a risk (however slight) of them being prosecuted for overtravelling their ticket?

 

[reb0118]

But to get back onto the main question, what is the official line if someone can't get off the train in time through no fault of their own, as in this situation

The guard would (if approached in time) endorse their ticket with "Pax overcarried on <insert headcode> please convey back as per attached itinerary" ~ the guard would then print out an itinerary from their avantix to show the passenger what trains to catch back.

If there are lots of tickets to endorse I volunteer one person to be the "lead passenger" endorse their ticket with full details of the situation and then simply write "see ticket no. xxxxx" or "see xxxxx" on the rest. The lead passenger is advised to proactively seek out the guard on their "rescue" train.

 

[paul1609]

If 350s are the same as 444/450s they sort of have SDO but it's not guaranteed it will work!
Ive had fiascos 2 nights running when doors in rear units wont switch in again at Havant after a short platform stop. After about 5 mins passengers operate the emergency lever and the whole west coast way timetable goes down the pan.
People criticise bombardier products but they are saints compared to the Desiros in this respect. At one stage it was so bad I did really wonder who had authorised SWTS safety case for these units.

 

[Crossover]

If 350s are the same as 444/450s they sort of have SDO but it's not guaranteed it will work!
Ive had fiascos 2 nights running when doors in rear units wont switch in again at Havant after a short platform stop. After about 5 mins passengers operate the emergency lever and the whole west coast way timetable goes down the pan.
People criticise bombardier products but they are saints compared to the Desiros in this respect. At one stage it was so bad I did really wonder who had authorised SWTS safety case for these units.

I am sure I have heard somewhere that the SWT stuff has been retrofitted with something half decent (i.e. SDO)

As Pumbaa rightly points out, 185's and 350's only have UDS which could mean the absurd position of all bar one set of doors of the rear set being on the platform and the entire unit would be locked out doors wise!

 

[swt_passenger]

I am sure I have heard somewhere that the SWT stuff has been retrofitted with something half decent (i.e. SDO)

We discussed it here a few months ago. Carriage level Auto SDO using sleeper mounted balises for location identification is currently being fitted to the 444, 450 and 458 fleets but is not in use yet, May 2014 is the target:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1267461&postcount=10

 

[martybabes]

... and is there a risk (however slight) of them being prosecuted for overtravelling their ticket?

If the fault for the overtravelling lies with the TOC, and it is the TOC that brings criminal proceedings, I would quite enjoy being instructed for the defence.

However, and to be serious for just a minute, the prosecutor will have regard to the Code for Crown Prosecutors before bringing proceedings. In simple terms, a proposed prosecution needs to satisfy a two-fold test before it can be commenced. The first test is evidential - ie, is there sufficient evidence to give a realistic prospect of a conviction? The second hurdle includes a "public interest" test, and this addresses lots of things including intent, the harm done and any other mitigating factors.

I would respectfully submit, as they say in tv courtroom dramas, that if the only reason for persons to be travelling without a valid ticket is because the train took them beyond where the advertised service and they were expecting to be able to alight, then criminal proceedings are not just unlikely to be brought but would be foolish and embarrassing to the prosecuting party if they were to be brought. Indeed, if ever there was a case for an abuse of process, this would be it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . but given that all the passengers are technically outside the law having (unwillingly) over travelled their ticket, what should they do?

. . . .

I was going to ask about the toc's responsibility to allow people off at their chosen stop, but I don't imagine they have any.

The passengers are not "outside the law" (or to use more technical language, are not captured by any Act, nor have they erred, nor have they violated any local Byelaws). They are in a Contract with a Railway Company to be conveyed between 2 places and the Company has apparenetly failed to honour its Contract.


Perhaps the error is successfully remedied to nullify any claim for breach of Contract, but the breach would appear to have arisen and the passengers are at liberty to pursue a claim. Whatever offence you are imagining that the passengers have committed will find little support at even the most junior of a law firm's desks.

 

[Tibbs]

Interesting - so if the TOC is in breach of contract, the byelaws don't apply?

 

[transmanche]

Interesting - so if the TOC is in breach of contract, the byelaws don't apply?

I wouldn't put it as blunt as that. In essence it's the TOC that has caused the passenger to be in breach of the bylaw. So it would be unjust and an abuse of process for them to prosecute a passenger in those circumstances.

 

[deltic1989]

If a prosecution were to occur in these circumstances, would the passenger be able to claim entrapment? Because the TOC has caused them to commit an offence that they wouldn't have otherwise committed.

 

[martybabes]

If a prosecution were to occur in these circumstances, would the passenger be able to claim entrapment? Because the TOC has caused them to commit an offence that they wouldn't have otherwise committed.

No - entrapment doesn't exist as a defence. You've been watching too many American films!

 

[Starmill]

No - entrapment doesn't exist as a defence. You've been watching too many American films!

I was gonna say...

However, if you were threatened with prosecution in this circumstance, I'm sure you could have a good go at them...

 

[Tibbs]

Got the same train today (the 17:34) and we got an announcement (and an explanation why) at Harrow, then again just before Bushey. Extended stop at Bushey too.

I was in front 4 this time so no idea if people were left on board, but no angry people at Watford tonight!

 

[noddingdonkey]

If the circumstances are as described (eg passengers were only advised of the short platform arrangements after the train had stopped and didn't give sufficient time for passengers at the back of the train to reach an open door) I'm amazed somebody didn't pull the passcom when it started moving.

 

[dysonsphere]

If the circumstances are as described (eg passengers were only advised of the short platform arrangements after the train had stopped and didn't give sufficient time for passengers at the back of the train to reach an open door) I'm amazed somebody didn't pull the passcom when it started moving.

Guess they didn't fancy the fine, that the train is leaving without you getting of is no excuse whatever the reason.