Undesirably long intermediate dwell times

[LUYMun]

Ascot to Aldershot services wait at Camberley for 4 minutes in both directions, may not seem like a lot but for a 30 minute journey it is.

This is due to the level crossing barrier on High Street, often with heavy road traffic, having to take a long time to come down.

 

[JonathanH]

They can just run it up the RVS though if they need to and have it wait outside East Croydon there.

That didn't used to be an option when the Milton Keynes / Shepherds Bush train used platform 5. I see from yesterday that a number of Uckfield trains ran into platform 5 somewhat early in yesterday's morning peak, given the flexibility now available, without delaying the Reigate train.
eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y01565/2022-03-18/detailed

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

The services terminating at Hayes and Harlington spend longer than necessary at Southall. Only about three minutes, but I guess they wait until the bay at Hayes is clear.

 

[Bevan Price]

The services terminating at Hayes and Harlington spend longer than necessary at Southall. Only about three minutes, but I guess they wait until the bay at Hayes is clear.

Many TPE Liverpool / Newcastle services have long waits in each direction at Manchester Victoria - some as much as 14 minutes.

 

[Horizon22]

The services terminating at Hayes and Harlington spend longer than necessary at Southall. Only about three minutes, but I guess they wait until the bay at Hayes is clear.

They don’t terminate any more and continue onto Heathrow.

As for the topic at hand, there’s a lot of long-distance services that sit at Reading for 5-6 minutes which is much longer than needed. Or the Didcot Parkway services which often sit for even longer, even when they don’t split.

 

[Donny_m]

The Exmouth or Exeter trains to Paignton stop at Newton Abbot platform one for 18 minutes.

Realtime Trains | 2E35 2005 Paignton to Exeter St Davids | 18/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 2E35 2005 departure from Paignton to Exeter St Davids on 18/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Imagine how boring that would be going from say, Teignmouth to Torre, an 8 mile journey!

I can remember way back, it was one of the only stations in that lines timetable that had 2 lines, an arrival and departure, as there was often such a difference.

 

[iainbhx]

The Avanti services from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Blackpool to London via Birmingham have a timetabled dwell of around 9 minutes at Wolverhampton in the up (southbound) direction. This is in addition to the 5 minute dwell at New Street.

During that dwell, they are overtaken by the following XC Reading/Bournemouth service, meaning that journey planners suggest changing for the XC service if you are heading to New Street, International or Coventry - although there is only a saving of around 5 minutes by doing so.

This is of course the legacy of it being a combination of two formerly separate services, from Scotland to Birmingham and Wolverhampton to Euston.

And it's absolutely mad if you do at certain times. The 17:01 ex-Crewe which I get often get home from work is not that full, the XC which overtakes it at Wolves is usually very full even in these Covid times. Whichever way, I'm still on the 18:30 from Moor Street.

 

[davetheguard]

The Exmouth or Exeter trains to Paignton stop at Newton Abbot platform one for 18 minutes.

Some of the Exmouth to Paignton trains have quite lengthy waits at Dawlish Warren in the evening, making use of the four track layout there that permits overtaking.

For example the 17.25 Exmouth - Paignton is booked 15 minutes at the Warren; the 17.54 Exmouth has 10 minutes; & the 20.24 from Exmouth has a massive 13 minutes! Not quite long enough to walk to Dawlish along the sea wall instead.

 

[Peter0124]

Infact, some of the services to Larkhall / Motherwell via the Cathcart Circle have been getting diverted mainline to Newton, arriving in Newton really early and waiting about 15-20 minutes to leave again to goto Blantyre. This isn't scheduled though so I don't particularly know why this is happening.

 

[HST274]

I will often take a small wonder outside the train where the dwell times allow and northbound out of Birmingham on XC, I find the waits at Derby and Sheffield are relatively long. Oxford on the long distance GWR trains seemed to have a long dwell time but this may have changed.

 

[43055]

I will often take a small wonder outside the train where the dwell times allow and northbound out of Birmingham on XC, I find the waits at Derby and Sheffield are relatively long. Oxford on the long distance GWR trains seemed to have a long dwell time but this may have changed.

The wait on the xx45 northbound from Derby is to give a gap between the itself and the Matlock service which leaves at xx33. By Ambergate they are only 3 mins apart.

 

[Starmill]

Many TPE Liverpool / Newcastle services have long waits in each direction at Manchester Victoria - some as much as 14 minutes.

That's because at the moment they're running a quarter hour out of line. That is, the path they should take up between Manchester Victoria and Yorkshire isn't in place currently. It is easily remedied by the return to half-hourly departures from Liverpool Lime Street, if and when TransPennine Express have sufficient crew to do this again. The former wait of between 7 and 9 minutes on eastbound services was frustrating, but luckily that was removed in 2018.

 

[voyagerdude220]

And it's absolutely mad if you do at certain times. The 17:01 ex-Crewe which I get often get home from work is not that full, the XC which overtakes it at Wolves is usually very full even in these Covid times. Whichever way, I'm still on the 18:30 from Moor Street.

You also have the problem of passengers travelling between say Preston/Wigan/Warrington/Crewe and Cheltenham/Bristol etc. needing to change at Wolverhampton onto the Cross Country service to give themselves enough time changing trains at Birmingham New Street.

 

[Starmill]

The Avanti services from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Blackpool to London via Birmingham have a timetabled dwell of around 9 minutes at Wolverhampton in the up (southbound) direction. This is in addition to the 5 minute dwell at New Street.

During that dwell, they are overtaken by the following XC Reading/Bournemouth service, meaning that journey planners suggest changing for the XC service if you are heading to New Street, International or Coventry - although there is only a saving of around 5 minutes by doing so.

This is of course the legacy of it being a combination of two formerly separate services, from Scotland to Birmingham and Wolverhampton to Euston.

It's very unfortunate indeed because the xx05 arrival in Birmingham means that the connection to the xx12 departure for the South West is missed, despite that 7 minutes being achievable for someone who is quick on their feet and not encumbered by heavy luggage. This means that anyone who is going that way must change at Wolverhampton to catch the often far busier service in the Reading direction as this arrival in Birmingham does meet the connection for Bristol and beyond.

 

[HST274]

The wait on the xx45 northbound from Derby is to give a gap between the itself and the Matlock service which leaves at xx33. By Ambergate they are only 3 mins apart.

That's interesting. Too be honest, it wasn't a complaint but quite the opposite. A breath of fresh air and a stretch of the legs are nice on longer jouneys.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Oxford on the long distance GWR trains seemed to have a long dwell time but this may have changed.

It's currently about four minutes on the up trains from the Cotswolds (though sometimes a little longer), three on the downs.

 

[Taunton]

One of the top railway hierarchy, can't remember quite who, complained not long ago that when Philip Hammond was Sec of State for Transport around 2010, he had suggested a loco hauled approach to the IEP project, which was just starting. Hammond cut him off and said that changing locos at the electrification/diesel boundary took the railway for ever, and would not proceed. In evidence he cited a journey he regularly made from Chester to Euston when at university, when the 47/electric changeover at Crewe took over 20 minutes.

Now our Top Man said he later got the timetables of the period out, and none of the Crewe changes was more than 12 minutes, so Hammond did not know what he was talking about.

However, at that period, on Sunday evenings, the service from Chester (actually starting from Holyhead) had the best part of 10 minutes recovery time on Sundays approaching Crewe, plus was rather slackly timed. And it was indeed the way that you would find the train standing each Sunday at Crewe for 20 minutes, maybe more. Which does rather point that our Top Man should have been a little more precise.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ever since it started running, the Selby/Leeds/Bradford to Huddersfield services had a long dwell at Halifax- sometimes the best part of 10 minutes. Some of this was swallowed up by Low Moor opening, with the rest remaining due to (a) the paths at Bradley Junction being fairly set-in-stone without a massive recast of the Trans-Pennine timetable; and (b) the possibility of Elland station finally opening.

 

[43074]

The wait on the xx45 northbound from Derby is to give a gap between the itself and the Matlock service which leaves at xx33. By Ambergate they are only 3 mins apart.

That wait has been there since at least December 2008 though, it was only from May last year when the Matlock proceeded it to Ambergate. Whether or not the long dwells in XC services are undesirable as per the OP depends I suppose though, they wouldn't achieve 90+% PPM* without it.

* - Public Performance Measure, not used so widely these days but measures arrivals within 10 mins of booked time at the train's destination on Intercity services and 5 mins for everything else.

 

[CentralTrainer]

I’m currently in a real world example of this with the route from Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street.

Left Droitwich Spa at 2030 - and the journey into Foregate normally takes some 9 minutes on average.

Tonight it seems to have been booked to wait at the Tunnel Junction (outside Shrub Hill) for around 10 minutes - and then a further wait on platform at Shrub Hill for 15 minutes before the 2 minute journey into Foregate.

So what should be a 9 minute journey will tonight take 31 minutes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==

Realtime Trains | 1V30 2000 Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street | 20/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 1V30 2000 departure from Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street on 20/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Link to the journey tonight on RTT

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==

And to cap it all - the front part of the leading carriage was out of action with plastic tape for what I could see to be for no good reason (similar to the locking out of doors on a GWR service I’ve mentioned before).

 

[HST274]

I’m currently in a real world example of this with the route from Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street.

Left Droitwich Spa at 2030 - and the journey into Foregate normally takes some 9 minutes on average.

Tonight it seems to have been booked to wait at the Tunnel Junction (outside Shrub Hill) for around 10 minutes - and then a further wait on platform at Shrub Hill for 15 minutes before the 2 minute journey into Foregate.

So what should be a 9 minute journey will tonight take 31 minutes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==

Realtime Trains | 1V30 2000 Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street | 20/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 1V30 2000 departure from Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street on 20/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Link to the journey tonight on RTT

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Mar 2022 ==

And to cap it all - the front part of the leading carriage was out of action with plastic tape for what I could see to be for no good reason (similar to the locking out of doors on a GWR service I’ve mentioned before).

Another example is found below where there is a 14 minute wait at shrub hill (alleviated today it seems by a delay). It does seem that often- because of the bottleneck at platform one of Foregate- trains will have long waiting times at Shrub Hill. Your situation is worse though becase of the long wait at Tunnel Junction!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L64750/2022-03-20/detailed#allox_id=0

Even on the example below there is a 6 minute wait to switch crew. It all adds up to a longer journey on all ready slow routes.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G09162/2022-03-20/detailed

 

[Starmill]

Another example is found below where there is a 14 minute wait at shrub hill (alleviated today it seems by a delay). It does seem that often- because of the bottleneck at platform one of Foregate- trains will have long waiting times at Shrub Hill. Your situation is worse though becase of the long wait at Tunnel Junction!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L64750/2022-03-20/detailed#allox_id=0

The layout at Worcester Foregate Street really isn't fit for the currently desired levels of service. That wait is caused by two trains between London and Hereford passing one another - of course, they cannot do so at Worcester Foregate Street, so one or the other has to wait for some time.

 

[The Planner]

That wait has been there since at least December 2008 though, it was only from May last year when the Matlock proceeded it to Ambergate. Whether or not the long dwells in XC services are undesirable as per the OP depends I suppose though, they wouldn't achieve 90+% PPM* without it.

* - Public Performance Measure, not used so widely these days but measures arrivals within 10 mins of booked time at the train's destination on Intercity services and 5 mins for everything else.

PPM is dead, XC design those types of dwell due the belief that a longer stop is seen as better that being pathed out/running slowly as that points to a problem or delay.

 

[30907]

The Exmouth or Exeter trains to Paignton stop at Newton Abbot platform one for 18 minutes.

Well, that particular one does

Imagine how boring that would be going from say, Teignmouth to Torre, an 8 mile journey!

OTOH from Totnes to Teignmouth or Torre to Taunton you might find a convenient connection rather less boring than sitting on NTA platform for ages.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

1B27 1748 SX Paddington to Carmarthen waits 32 minutes at Swansea. Once it leaves, it's virtually empty! There are other trains with long waits there too.

32 minutes??? That's a long wait!

 

[Marton]

The new Middlesbrough to Kings Cross sits in York from 0806 to 0813, but actually from about 0801.

The announcement was “if you have an open ticket wait on the platform for the next train at 0822. It arrives before this one”.

Add to that 5 minutes at the platform in Thirsk (not a stop) and a meander from Stoke to Peterborough on the slow line makes me wonder if it’s set to fail.

If driving to the station quicker to use Darlington instead andthe 0730. Not only in London earlier but plenty more trains home.

 

[mm333]

The 0543 XC from Leeds to Edinburgh sits at York for 22 minutes. There is a 0547 path from Leeds-York for an ECS originating at Neville Hill for whatever forms the 0645 York-Plymouth but that appears to often come into York directly from Crofton depot.

 

[greyman42]

The new Middlesbrough to Kings Cross sits in York from 0806 to 0813, but actually from about 0801.

The announcement was “if you have an open ticket wait on the platform for the next train at 0822. It arrives before this one”.

Add to that 5 minutes at the platform in Thirsk (not a stop) and a meander from Stoke to Peterborough on the slow line makes me wonder if it’s set to fail.

Which trains overtake it between Middlesbrough and London and does it change from diesel to electric on the move?

 

[class 9]

Yep, and many of the trains omit a Chesterfield stop and arrive in Sheffield early as a result!

Very, very rare to arrive into Sheffield early, the northbound XC follows the Nott - Lds, cleethorpes TPE and Hope valley stopper into Sheffield.

 

[The exile]

I ran to catch a Weymouth service at Bristol Temple Meads this week. Need not have bothered, as it stops at Bristol for 20 minutes before continuing the journey

If you’re heading from Filton / ParkwAy to Bath and the xx.15ish makes the non-connection onto the xx.30 at Temple Meads, you can be at Bath before the train you’ve left has even departed from Bristol.