Undeserved Fare

[furlong]

Unfortunately over half the locations carrying First Class labelling at any one time are not in fact First Class, and they make it very difficult for people to find out which ones are and which are not. Instead of displaying fixed notices that tell people the rules to follow so they can work out for themselves, they expect people to spot a message that appears for a just a few seconds every few minutes on a changing electronic display. This is woefully inadequate. Even worse, the PF appeals assessor didn't seem to be aware of this so didn't even attempt to defend the situation!

 

[Kilopylae]

Even worse, the PF appeals assessor didn't seem to be aware of this so didn't even attempt to defend the situation!

It's worth OP making sure they spell out the situation very clearly and simply in their next appeal, perhaps with lots of line breaks.

We also really need to know the answer to the question Hadders asked: who told OP that First Class on Thameslink was declassified? Was it a member of railway staff?

 

[HSCHOTTERS]

Hi,

I've seen people have misunderstood. I was told first class is declassified, but didn't know if this was the front or the back. I'm not saying that I thought only the front, I thought that all first class, and there is no distinguishing between the front and the back

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Who told you this? Somebody working for Thameslink or somebody else you know?

somebody that I know

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Well, the signage that you're in first class is very clear. It's only the presence of a sign in that part of the train otherwise which makes it not so, if this makes sense.

We need to see the *Notice* - that is, what was issued to you on the train.

No mate there's no difference between the back and the front

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In fact, the front section also has scrolling notices on the on-board displays explicitly stating it is only for first class ticket holders!

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Unless you provide a copy of your penalty fare to us to look at, we can't help you on any ways to appeal on technicalities.

If you cannot afford to pay the penalty now, I would strongly suggest trying to save some money to pay it, and exhaust all of your appeals even if you know they will be unsuccessful. While your penalty fare is in the appeals process, the countdown to pay the reduced amount is paused until the appeal response is returned to you. This can buy you some more time to find the money to pay the penalty fare.

If you do not pay the penalty fare, the amount will increase. If you still do not pay after this, you will likely be prosecuted instead, which will almost certainly carry a higher court-imposed fine and a criminal record in some form.

Not really the most obvious thing in the world is it?? Unlike southern where it clearly states that it is

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I'm pretty sure this would not apply from Haywards Heath. I travel to / from Haywards Heath on Thameslink regularly and never seen anything to say you can sit in the front 1st class compartment. I always err on side of caution and only use the rear one.

Presume the definitive info is the '1' in a black box on the column heading on the pdf version of the timetables that are no longer printed in hard copy....?

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/service-updates/timetables

Again, it was an act of confusion as I was told first class is declassified, not specifically the rear one

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I've seen people have misunderstood. I was told first class is declassified, but didn't know if this was the front or the back. I'm not saying that I thought only the front, I thought that all first class, and there is no distinguishing between the front and the back

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Understood - but anyone can think what they like, but that does not mean an Appeal will be successful I'm afraid - but that is not a reason not to try

somebody that I know

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So not an official member of staff employed by the railway then?

There's nothing wrong with being advised by people you know who are not official people, / staff authorised to give you permission - but you can't always be sure they know what they are talking about (unfortunately).

No mate there's no difference between the back and the front

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There is - the front and the back compartments have different scrolling information about the validity of First Class tickets in the seating areas concerned. Travel int he back next time and read what it says on the scrolling info panel on the ceiling

Not really the most obvious thing in the world is it??

Agreed - and that might be a good point to make in your Appeal wording

 

[bb21]

Not really the most obvious thing in the world is it?? Unlike southern where it clearly states that it is

Every window in the First Class areas both front and rear have a sticker clearly identifying First Class, and an antimacassar on each seat stating so too, so to claim it isn't obvious is laughable. In the absence of any knowledge on what the scrolling displays say, your default position should be to avoid these areas on a Standard Class ticket. No other action is justifiable.

Your mistake is trusting someone who clearly gave you misleading information, and that unfortunately has consequences.

 

[Haywain]

it was an act of confusion as I was told first class is declassified, not specifically the rear one

Sorry to say, but "someone you know" doesn't carry any authority.

 

[AlterEgo]

No mate there's no difference between the back and the front

There is. One first class section says standard class holders can sit there, and the other doesn't.

As others have said, unfortunately "someone told me" is neither here nor there, and this may be an expensive lesson for you I'm afraid.

If you want assistance appealing the penalty fare we need to see the actual Notice, as they are frequently filled in wrongly which makes them unenforceable.

 

[bakerstreet]

I’m not sure if this helps the OP or not but hopefully clarifies the position






Some more information here:

First Class | Thameslink Railway

Upgrade to First Class on Southern for your season ticket, day ticket or Travelcard.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

 

[Palaceboy]

I’m not sure if this helps the OP or not but hopefully clarifies the position

View attachment 205261

View attachment 205262


Some more information here:

First Class | Thameslink Railway

Upgrade to First Class on Southern for your season ticket, day ticket or Travelcard.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

That’s interesting. There are a few trains in the evening from Three Bridges to Luton. I presume these would be fully declassified

 

[bakerstreet]

That’s interesting. There are a few trains in the evening from Three Bridges to Luton. I presume these would be fully declassified

According to the words, yes, but not the map!

 

[WesternLancer]

That’s interesting. There are a few trains in the evening from Three Bridges to Luton. I presume these would be fully declassified

Then probably compare that against the pdf timetable with annotations against each train to see what that says.

 

[gray1404]

Are we able to clarify exactly which train the original poster was on?

 

[furlong]

So they've got diagrams to explain this! Why are there not copies of that at the entrance to every first class area on every train? Until they do something like that they should be giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and not be imposing any of these penalties on anyone!

 

[NeakPed]

So they've got diagrams to explain this! Why are there not copies of that at the entrance to every first class area on every train? Until they do something like that they should be giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and not be imposing any of these penalties on anyone!

Perhaps because at other TOCS, 1st class applies on all services that have 1st Class seating. (Yes, I know that there are some exceptions to that).
Thameslink is unique in that 1st only applies in the leading vehicle on certain routes / for certain destinations so maybe it needs to be explained.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Perhaps because at other TOCS, 1st class applies on all services that have 1st Class seating. (Yes, I know that there are some exceptions to that).
Thameslink is unique in that 1st only applies in the leading vehicle on certain routes / for certain destinations so maybe it needs to be explained.

But it is explained on a scrolling message. The railway clearly think this is adequate. Many people here don't. But will grumbling about it here resolve the point?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Hi,

I've seen people have misunderstood. I was told first class is declassified, but didn't know if this was the front or the back. I'm not saying that I thought only the front, I thought that all first class, and there is no distinguishing between the front and the back

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somebody that I know

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No mate there's no difference between the back and the front

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Not really the most obvious thing in the world is it?? Unlike southern where it clearly states that it is

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Again, it was an act of confusion as I was told first class is declassified, not specifically the rear one

You're conflating a lot of arguments and grievances here.

Your argument to GTR isn't that First Class isn't obvious, because it clearly is. The signs and antimacassars are very clear, the seats and facilities are totally different (unlike on many Southern trains) there's a yellow stripe above the door, there's a separating door.

It's very obvious which part of the train is at the back, because it is behind the rest of the train. The PIS shows whether you're in coach 1 or 8/12 regularly. Anyway, your argument is not that you thought you were in the rear first class specifically.

An argument that the signage isn't clear as to what is declassified is also not helpful to you because the PIS only briefly shows that standard tickets are valid to sit there, not that it is First Class tickets only. So if in doubt or unaware, you'd sit in standard. Most people do because they don't know any different or just don't care.

You knew it was a First Class compartment, only that you believed it was declassified. That's at best, a reflection of honest intent and an honest mistake to GTR, but it doesn't change your liability or defence.

It's fine to vent and yes it's all a bit silly and a clumsy compromise, and we'll help. The only way to fight this successfully would be via an irregularity in the issue of the PF, and would be on the third appeal with a very crisp, clear, unemotional and without indignation at the policy and signage.

To find out if it was issued incorrectly, you need to upload an image of the orange and white thermal paper slip you received on the train, as previously requested by @AlterEgo.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

That’s interesting. There are a few trains in the evening from Three Bridges to Luton. I presume these would be fully declassified

Also trains that terminate at West Hampstead Thameslink during weekend engineering work .

 

[Kumquat]

I read this thread and then boarded a Southern train at Victoria (to Streatham Common). I recalled that First was always declassified on that route except for one train a day, but nowadays there aren't the timetable posters to look for the absence of the little 1 marker. So I started looking online on my phone for confirmation, before sitting in the First compartment. There was no signage nor scrolling message to suggest declassification, but I did find confirmation that indeed it is declassified, from posts on X(ex-Twitter)

"Hi, On Southern, First Class is declassified on the following routes : - London Victoria / London Bridge to London Bridge / London Victoria / Beckenham Junction / West Croydon / Sutton / Epsom / Epsom Downs / Dorking / Horsham (via Sutton) / Caterham / Tattenham Corner - Brighton to Seaford / Littlehampton / Portsmouth & Southsea / Portsmouth Harbour - Portsmouth & Southsea / Portsmouth Harbour to Littlehampton - Ashford International to Eastbourne ^Wiktor"

A few days ago, at Streatham, I boarded a Thameslink train. A scrolling message mentioned First was declassified - the first time I've ever seen such a message. I've definitely been told by station staff previously, gesturing at a train in the platform, "oh, don't worry, First is declassified". So given Southern and Thameslink are the same company, and lack of info to the contrary, there's certainly a widespread belief among locals that First compartments are always declassified.

Online research confirms that the back First compartment is always declassified - but the front one is still First Class. I don't think it's reasonable to expect passengers to have to Google policies that only apply to a small percentage of trains in their area - not to mention it's often hard to know which is the front or back of a train in a platform.

Given the complexity, I'd expect ticket checkers to be lenient, at least the first time they meet a passenger. Not that I've ever seen a ticket check on Thameslink in the last 20 years...

 

[sabanda]

Perhaps not relevant here, and my apologies if so, but could Thameslink not easily solve this on most services by halving the amount of first class accommodation and permanently re-designating the rest as standard?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Perhaps not relevant here, and my apologies if so, but could Thameslink not easily solve this on most services by halving the amount of first class accommodation and permanently re-designating the rest as standard?

But then first class passengers wouldn't know which end of the train 1st is.

 

[sabanda]

But then first class passengers wouldn't know which end of the train 1st is.

I was thinking something more along the lines of SWR's Class 450s, with a small first class section behind the cab at both ends. It shouldn't pose an issue with clear enough signage.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps not relevant here, and my apologies if so, but could Thameslink not easily solve this on most services by halving the amount of first class accommodation and permanently re-designating the rest as standard?

How would you like to have a first class ticket and not know which end of a 12 coach train the first accommodation will be at?

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I was thinking something more along the lines of SWR's Class 450s, with a small first class section behind the cab at both ends. It shouldn't pose an issue with clear enough signage.

They aren't 12 coaches long.

 

[sabanda]

They aren't 12 coaches long.

I accept this would pose an issue in the event of one first class area being full, but that would not exactly be a new or unique problem - I've had to walk the entire length of a 10-coach train in order to find an available first class seat on more than one occasion.

 

[Sussex Ben]

But then first class passengers wouldn't know which end of the train 1st is.

How would you like to have a first class ticket and not know which end of a 12 coach train the first accommodation will be at?

Easily solved by putting it on the CIS. Other TOCs manage this, and I’m sure previous thameslink operators used to when the 319s were still running.

 

[Haywain]

Easily solved by putting it on the CIS. Other TOCs manage this, and I’m sure previous thameslink operators used to when the 319s were still running.

Because CIS is always 100% reliable. And class 319s were not 12 coaches long.

 

[sabanda]

Because CIS is always 100% reliable.

It is 100% reliable at my local station this week - at getting the first class locations completely wrong on 'Up' trains. Those running in the opposite direction seem to have the correct data pretty much all of the time.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is 100% reliable at my local station this week - at getting the first class locations completely wrong on 'Up' trains. Those running in the opposite direction seem to have the correct data pretty much all of the time.

This also works fine with TOCs like Avanti who have first class at the same one end of the train nearly all of the time.

 

[SECR 65]

This also works fine with TOCs like Avanti who have first class at the same one end of the train nearly all of the time.

However, on Avanti, people make pre-planned, often reserved, long distance journeys. You can check advanced information and will be at the station well before departure.

On TL, you hurtle down the steps to the platform and hop onto whatever shows up, often for one or two stops.

Or are you saying on Avanti 1st is always at the same geographical end?

 

[AlterEgo]

However, on Avanti, people make pre-planned, often reserved, long distance journeys. You can check advanced information and will be at the station well before departure.

On TL, you hurtle down the steps to the platform and hop onto whatever shows up, often for one or two stops.

Or are you saying on Avanti 1st is always at the same geographical end?

It's always in the same place, at the South.

 

[SECR 65]

It's always in the same place, at the South.

Fair enough. On TL the Sutton loop would cause issues. Even if first is declass on the loop, those units will then get swapped around and be different for other routes.