Undeserved Fare

[HSCHOTTERS]

Hi guys,

I was just wondering what you think about my current appeal process that is ongoing.

I have been told on numerous occasions that first class on Thameslink trains is declassified. I did not know that this was only the rear one. I got on the train and sat in the front first class, which as you know looks exactly like the back, and was approached by a ticket inspector. He said to me that my ticket wasn't valid - I had a 7 day travelcard - and I was surprised. He gave me a penalty fare of around £93 for the fare, which I cannot afford. I said to him that I made a mistake, I did not do this on purpose and it was a genuine mistake. My first appeal has been unsuccessful as they say that there was clear signage and its only declassified if they say it is. I have explained to them that this is my first offence, i always buy a ticket, and never travel without one. I did not willingly sit in first class knowing that it was the official first class, which he seemed to understand. I wanted to know your opinion on this as I think that this is unreasonable and should be focusing on the other people that were caught without a ticket and willingly did so, one of the reasons was to charge their phone.

Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Please upload a copy of your penalty fare notice with your name removed and we can see if they have made a procedural error in issuing it.

 

[SECR 65]

In my opinion you do not have much chance of winning an appeal. 1st Class is clearly signed as so; one has to make the assumption that unless it is declassified, then a premium fare is payable. I can understand where your confusion has come from, but unfortunately, I don't think the railway will listen to any appeal.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Please upload a copy of your penalty fare notice with your name removed and we can see if they have made a procedural error in issuing it.

To pick up on an implicit point here: unless there's a procedural error in the penalty fare notice, it seems to have been issued correctly. The expectation is that passengers will obey the rules as they are, rather than as the passengers think they are: otherwise the railway would see a tide of people taking very favourable (to the passenger) misinterpretations.

 

[HSCHOTTERS]

Please upload a copy of your penalty fare notice with your name removed and we can see if they have made a procedural error in issuing it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2026 ==

To pick up on an implicit point here: unless there's a procedural error in the penalty fare notice, it seems to have been issued correctly. The expectation is that passengers will obey the rules as they are, rather than as the passengers think they are: otherwise the railway would see a tide of people taking very favourable (to the passenger) misinterpretations.

Yeah but they’re saying there is clear signage, my point is there isn’t between the back and the front.

 

[flitwickbeds]

First Class on Thameslink (at least the Bedford to Brighton line) is confusing.

The rear carriage in direction of travel is always declassified, but it's not like someone comes and removes all the antimacassars or the glass partitions at the start of every journey. In addition, the front first class is permanently declassified on some routes (eg Luton/St Alban's to Sutton) but not others (eg Bedford to Brighton, which calls at Luton and St Albans). Finally, it always used to be the case (unsure if still the same) that any train which has "no first class" against it in the timetable (which includes, or at least included, some Bedford to Brighton services) are also declassified everywhere.

Having said all that, the expectation when entering a designated first class section (which is visually different to the rest of the carriages, ie has full tables, and is physically separated by a glass partition) would presumably be that a ticket is needed. Further inspection of the digital signage would, eventually, reveal that it is declassified once ithe train has departed the station, and the display has gone back to its general information about the train rather than the stop, AND has gone round enough looped information screens.

 

[6Gman]

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Yeah but they’re saying there is clear signage, my point is there isn’t between the back and the front.

Where do they say that?

They do say that declassification should only be assumed if there are announcements or clear signage.

 

[AlterEgo]

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Yeah but they’re saying there is clear signage, my point is there isn’t between the back and the front.

Well, the signage that you're in first class is very clear. It's only the presence of a sign in that part of the train otherwise which makes it not so, if this makes sense.

We need to see the *Notice* - that is, what was issued to you on the train.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi guys,

I was just wondering what you think about my current appeal process that is ongoing.

I have been told on numerous occasions that first class on Thameslink trains is declassified. I did not know that this was only the rear one. I got on the train and sat in the front first class, which as you know looks exactly like the back, and was approached by a ticket inspector. He said to me that my ticket wasn't valid - I had a 7 day travelcard - and I was surprised. He gave me a penalty fare of around £93 for the fare, which I cannot afford. I said to him that I made a mistake, I did not do this on purpose and it was a genuine mistake. My first appeal has been unsuccessful as they say that there was clear signage and its only declassified if they say it is. I have explained to them that this is my first offence, i always buy a ticket, and never travel without one. I did not willingly sit in first class knowing that it was the official first class, which he seemed to understand. I wanted to know your opinion on this as I think that this is unreasonable and should be focusing on the other people that were caught without a ticket and willingly did so, one of the reasons was to charge their phone.

Thanks

The scrolling info board on the ceiling in the rear compartment tells you it’s declassified. There is no such info given in the front compartment.
So the front compartment has just the first class signage which in the absence of any other information it would be best to comply with.

You say you have been told on numerous occasions the first class is open to standard class ticket holders.

Who has told you that? Friends and acquaintances or railway staff?
If the former maybe best to tell them that’s not true.

I agree it’s confusing, but I think the actual state of affairs is stated on the Thameslink website (at least it was once I’ve not checked recently). With hindsight it would have been best to check.

Theres no harm in submitting an appeal but I don’t think it will be successful.

 

[MrJeeves]

The scrolling info board on the ceiling in the rear compartment tells you it’s declassified. There is no such info given in the front compartment.
So the front compartment has just the first class signage which in the absence of any other information it would be best to comply with.

In fact, the front section also has scrolling notices on the on-board displays explicitly stating it is only for first class ticket holders!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2026 ==

He gave me a penalty fare of around £93 for the fare, which I cannot afford. I said to him that I made a mistake, I did not do this on purpose and it was a genuine mistake. My first appeal has been unsuccessful as they say that there was clear signage and its only declassified if they say it is.

Unless you provide a copy of your penalty fare to us to look at, we can't help you on any ways to appeal on technicalities.

If you cannot afford to pay the penalty now, I would strongly suggest trying to save some money to pay it, and exhaust all of your appeals even if you know they will be unsuccessful. While your penalty fare is in the appeals process, the countdown to pay the reduced amount is paused until the appeal response is returned to you. This can buy you some more time to find the money to pay the penalty fare.

If you do not pay the penalty fare, the amount will increase. If you still do not pay after this, you will likely be prosecuted instead, which will almost certainly carry a higher court-imposed fine and a criminal record in some form.

 

[furlong]

Quick points.

Firstly, clearly the person who assessed that appeal doesn't understand the situation either as, despite all the other verbiage they included, they make no reference to the special circumstances on these trains!

As such you should certainly continue to appeal.

Secondly, note that on the balance of probabilities, if you see a 'First Class' sign on these trains, the area is NOT in fact First Class! It is more likely than not to be standard class as, at any one time, more than half of the labelled First Class sections are in fact declassified! (On some trains half are declassified, on other trains all are declassified.) As such, the current signage is woefully unsatisfactory as, with over half of it wrong, and in the absence of a clear explanation of the rationale, it leads people, quite reasonably, to believe that it can be ignored.

There is no reason why the fixed signs on all the trains couldn't be corrected to state the current policy, namely the front/back distinction and the route distinction. It would not take many words. And it should add that if you are unsure, check by watching the scrolling display continuously for at least five minutes (or whatever the correct maximum time you have to wait for the message is).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2026 ==

So you could try to argue that, since the same "First Class" notice is displayed in both Standard Class and First Class, and more than half of the notices convey false information, it is unreasonable for the company to impose any penalty on a passenger by relying solely upon a notice that, (as viewed by a passenger unaware of the underlying policy) on the balance of probabilities was incorrect.

 

[Hadders]

I have been told on numerous occasions that first class on Thameslink trains is declassified.

Who told you this? Somebody working for Thameslink or somebody else you know?

 

[WesternLancer]

In fact, the front section also has scrolling notices on the on-board displays explicitly stating it is only for first class ticket holders!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2026 ==

Thanks - never having bought a 1st class ticket for a journey on Thameslink I'd never been in the front compartment to have seen that.
It's logical that it should display it there.

 

[flitwickbeds]

In fact, the front section also has scrolling notices on the on-board displays explicitly stating it is only for first class ticket holders!

Who told you this? Somebody working for Thameslink or somebody else you know?

Thanks - never having bought a 1st class ticket for a journey on Thameslink I'd never been in the front compartment to have seen that.
It's logical that it should display it there.

But, on some trains, the entire train is permanently declassified. And there's no real logic as to which are and which aren't.

For someone boarding at Elstree heading into London and back, for example, the phrase "first class is always declassified" is always true.

 

[snail]

So you could try to argue that, since the same "First Class" notice is displayed in both Standard Class and First Class, and more than half of the notices convey false information, it is unreasonable for the company to impose any penalty on a passenger by relying solely upon a notice that, (as viewed by a passenger unaware of the underlying policy) on the balance of probabilities was incorrect.

But it is still First Class. It only becomes valid for Standard Class ticket holders once declassified. The signage may be misleading but is not wrong. If in doubt, stay out!

 

[jumble]

Quick points.

Firstly, clearly the person who assessed that appeal doesn't understand the situation either as, despite all the other verbiage they included, they make no reference to the special circumstances on these trains!

As such you should certainly continue to appeal.

Secondly, note that on the balance of probabilities, if you see a 'First Class' sign on these trains, the area is NOT in fact First Class! It is more likely than not to be standard class as, at any one time, more than half of the labelled First Class sections are in fact declassified! (On some trains half are declassified, on other trains all are declassified.) As such, the current signage is woefully unsatisfactory as, with over half of it wrong, and in the absence of a clear explanation of the rationale, it leads people, quite reasonably, to believe that it can be ignored.

There is no reason why the fixed signs on all the trains couldn't be corrected to state the current policy, namely the front/back distinction and the route distinction. It would not take many words. And it should add that if you are unsure, check by watching the scrolling display continuously for at least five minutes (or whatever the correct maximum time you have to wait for the message is).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 May 2026 ==

So you could try to argue that, since the same "First Class" notice is displayed in both Standard Class and First Class, and more than half of the notices convey false information, it is unreasonable for the company to impose any penalty on a passenger by relying solely upon a notice that, (as viewed by a passenger unaware of the underlying policy) on the balance of probabilities was incorrect.

I would be astonished if the appeal panel agree with your view.
Mind you this is nothing new

Boston student fined £130 over first class rail 'confusion'

Theo Griffiths says he thought he could use the first class carriage during his journey to London.

www.bbc.co.uk

I cannot see if poor confused Theo was let off

 

[Mattplans]

It's a bit confusing to be honest, and I wouldn't expect someone not 'in the know' to be able to figure out whether first class is declassified. I would, however, expect someone unsure of whether they're allowed in first class to err on the side of caution and just sit in the regular seats. It's a shame OP was misinformed by a friend? but I doubt an appeal would be successful, because first class is clearly signposted. As GTR say, No-one would think they were not in a first class compartment.

Generally if the train is 12 coaches first class is not declassified. But 8 coaches can be subbed on, so this isn't always the case. But we know for sure that the rear first class is always declassified.

Since OP travels from haywards heath, the trains they will be catching never have a declassified first class (at the front). I wonder if they were misinformed by a staff member? Or perhaps they misunderstood

** But there's nothing to lose from attempting to appeal

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For someone boarding at Elstree heading into London and back, for example, the phrase "first class is always declassified" is always true.

But not if a fast train were to be making an additional call there! It's far too confusing for the average passenger to figure out.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Since OP travels from haywards heath, the trains they will be catching never have a declassified first class (at the front). I wonder if they were misinformed by a staff member? Or perhaps they misunderstood

I'm not convinced that is the case either. While I'm not familiar with the southern side of Thameslink, the 12 carriage 0628 from Flitwick (using the normal stopping pattern from here, ie all stops to St Albans then fast to St Pancras) was, before the recent timetable change, fully declassified. With signs on the platform displays saying so. I'm guessing there were others too. Since last Sunday, according to the timetable online, this now stops at West Hampstead but also has first class listed on the timetable. It's probably the same situation from Haywards Heath.

It's also the case that quite a few trains from Flitwick are scheduled to be 8 carriages rather than them just being subbed in.

Having said all this, I agree with the underlying argument that it's obvious you are in first class, and that the onus is on the passenger to double check it has been declassified before settling in there.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm not convinced that is the case either. While I'm not familiar with the southern side of Thameslink, the 12 carriage 0628 from Flitwick (using the normal stopping pattern from here, ie all stops to St Albans then fast to St Pancras) was, before the recent timetable change, fully declassified. With signs on the platform displays saying so. I'm guessing there were others too. Since last Sunday, according to the timetable online, this now stops at West Hampstead but also has first class listed on the timetable. It's probably the same situation from Haywards Heath.

It's also the case that quite a few trains from Flitwick are scheduled to be 8 carriages rather than them just being subbed in.

Having said all this, I agree with the underlying argument that it's obvious you are in first class, and that the onus is on the passenger to double check it has been declassified before settling in there.

I'm pretty sure this would not apply from Haywards Heath. I travel to / from Haywards Heath on Thameslink regularly and never seen anything to say you can sit in the front 1st class compartment. I always err on side of caution and only use the rear one.

Presume the definitive info is the '1' in a black box on the column heading on the pdf version of the timetables that are no longer printed in hard copy....?

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/service-updates/timetables

 

[saismee]

I use Great Northern occasionally for ths Fen Line, and I had to ask here if 700 first is still declassified as it's still GTR and says Thameslink on the sides. Apparently not, but I'm still unclear on whether that's accurate. So a train can be operated by Govia  Thameslink Railway and be branded as Thameslink, but still have first class at the back in force! Every rule here has about 6 asterisks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Presume the definitive info is the '1' in a black box on the column heading on the pdf version of the timetables that are no longer printed in hard copy....?

That is not definitive as to whether a train conveys first class. What matters is whether the area is marked as first class without signs to the contrary. That's all that matters in law.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I use Great Northern occasionally for ths Fen Line, and I had to ask here if 700 first is still declassified as it's still GTR and says Thameslink on the sides. Apparently not, but I'm still unclear on whether that's accurate. So a train can be operated by Govia  Thameslink Railway and be branded as Thameslink, but still have first class at the back in force! Every rule here has about 6 asterisks.

I've travelled on countless 700-operated Great Northen services, the same "This area can be used by standard class ticket holders" message has always appeared and I've passed multiple RPI checks in there. The rear is definitely declassified!

 

[Mattplans]

I use Great Northern occasionally for ths Fen Line, and I had to ask here if 700 first is still declassified as it's still GTR and says Thameslink on the sides. Apparently not, but I'm still unclear on whether that's accurate. So a train can be operated by Govia  Thameslink Railway and be branded as Thameslink, but still have first class at the back in force! Every rule here has about 6 asterisks.

As can be seen, no one really seems to know. Given the widespread confusion and caveats to first class policy on GTR, I wouldn't be surprised if a passenger on a GN service operated by a 700 finds themselves being fined by a RPI that's also unfamiliar with the policy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

First Class on the 700s is confusing, but the simple fact of the matter is that the First Class branding is very clear on those trains. It is the declassification that isn’t very clearly communicated.

Having used both First Class and declassified First Class, the PIS repeatedly states the compartment is only for first class ticket holders in the active compartment. And the PIS only says anyone can sit there in the declassified compartments.

I can see how people get used to a compartment being declassified if they usually use the stoppers. It is confusing. But people need to check and perhaps need to get out of the habit of assuming that some compartments will always be declassified.

I think the OP should appeal to all three levels and explain why they think they have mitigating circumstances. But they should do that in hope, not with any expectation they will win.

Personally, I’d get rid of First Class on Thameslink, but that doesn’t help the OP.

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As can be seen, no one really seems to know.

If the PIS states anyone can sit there, it is declassified.

If the PIS doesn’t say that, it isn’t declassified.

I’ve no idea what the PIS states on the services you refer to, but if it doesn’t specifically state standard class ticket holders can use the compartment then I’d not sit there.

 

[WesternLancer]

Personally, I’d get rid of First Class on Thameslink, but that doesn’t help the OP.

By all means do that if it's alongside fitting power points through all of the trains, some areas with tables too.

Not very helpful to season ticket holders who have paid a lot of money fora 1st class season on the route then are unable to use it on many trains on the route either. eg the Brighton line.

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I’ve no idea what the PIS states on the services you refer to, but if it doesn’t specifically state standard class ticket holders can use the compartment then I’d not sit there.

Tend to agree with this - but I find it a bit annoying that the declassified message does not come round in the scrolling screen as frequently in the PIS screen as it probably should do
You seem to get info on the toilet status more frequently..

 

[saismee]

As can be seen, no one really seems to know. Given the widespread confusion and caveats to first class policy on GTR, I wouldn't be surprised if a passenger on a GN service operated by a 700 finds themselves being fined by a RPI that's also unfamiliar with the policy.

Thank you for this. I have thankfully never had the misfortune of a class 700 substitution (I usually use the 379 services) but I will keep it in mind. I usually stand near the back at Cambridge so it might be nice. Will certainly check the screens though to ensure its declassified.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Personally, I’d get rid of First Class on Thameslink, but that doesn’t help the OP.

Same.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I find it a bit annoying that the declassified message does not come round in the scrolling screen as frequently in the PIS screen as it probably should do

Yeah, and I’d say the same about the “only for first class ticket holders” message in the active compartment. It needs to be repeated a lot more often.

I’m always a bit nervous until I see the message. I can understand why people would get used to it and then get caught out when something changes.

 

[Haywain]

As can be seen, no one really seems to know. Given the widespread confusion and caveats to first class policy on GTR, I wouldn't be surprised if a passenger on a GN service operated by a 700 finds themselves being fined by a RPI that's also unfamiliar with the policy.

But that can only occur in the rear first class compartment, which is not relevant to the OP in any way.

 

[Gloster]

This seems to be another case of the ‘man on the Clapham omnibus’, although it is really the ‘Clapham Junction train’. Is it reasonable to expect that a passenger will understand that a First Class section is only for First Class ticket-holders unless there is a specific indication that it is available to Standard Class ticket-holders? In my opinion, based on no legal knowledge or experience, that is a reasonable assumption by the railway.