Unadvertised First Class

[SAPhil]

If a service that is not marked in the timetable as having first class is using carriages with a first class section, is the first class automatically declassified?
This sometimes happens on the line I use and it seems daft to be running a jammed packed commuter train with a first class section that nobody will have bought tickets for!

 

[wibble]

If a service that is not marked in the timetable as having first class is using carriages with a first class section, is the first class automatically declassified?
This sometimes happens on the line I use and it seems daft to be running a jammed packed commuter train with a first class section that nobody will have bought tickets for!

If it's a train's not advertised at offering first class in timetable publications then it's declassified (unless an error's been made) - which train is it?

 

[b0b]

If its a train you regularly use, you'd be best advised to have a copy of the timetable with you. As other members have experienced, particularly aggressive RPIs in PF areas will still try an issue a PF!

 

[philjo]

We had a situation like this the other day - FC was completely empty & people were standing in std class. Before the Dec timetable change it was 6-car 313s now it is 8-car 321s & the timetable does not indicate presence of 1st class.

Where is the official documentation about this - a couple of people who I see regularly on my journey did not believe that they could use 1st class when I said it was a declassified service - I was looking for some documentation to show them for future occasions.
I can't see anything in the NCoc relating to declassified services (other than entitlement to a refund if you hold a 1st class ticket)

 

[wellhouse]

This an issue on the Thameslink route right back to NSE days.

Some Class 319 stock (normally diagrammed for Luton - Sutton loop services) has no FC, while the stock diagrammed for Bedford- Brighton services does have FC.

In the peaks, however, there are Bedford services which are scheduled to be standard only, and many late Sutton loop services run north of St Pancras as fast services to Bedford. I commuted from Harlington for nearly 20 years, and the diagrams were confused just about every every week so that FC availability often did not correspond to the timetable; no FC when there was supposed to be, and FC when it wasn't advertised.

 

[Welshman]

The far North Lines - Inverness to Kyle and Wick/Thurso currently use 158s complete with 1st class seating, but are shown in the timetable as standard class only.

The last time I travelled on them, I checked with the conductor and was told it was OK to sit in those seats with a standard class ticket.

Also the HST EMT used from Nottingham- Skegness last summer had its first class declassified, offering an extremely comfortable run that is normally formed of a 15x unit! I believe it had its buffet open too! Now there was luxury!

 

[mallard]

The far North Lines - Inverness to Kyle and Wick/Thurso currently use 158s complete with 1st class seating, but are shown in the timetable as standard class only.

The last time I travelled on them, I checked with the conductor and was told it was OK to sit in those seats with a standard class ticket.

The "first class" section on the Scottish 158s only exists so that BR could avoid bad press about the removal of first class when the 158s were introduced. Even post refurbishment the only difference is the antimacassars.

 

[DJ737]

Hi there

I assume that the Paddington to Pembroke Dock HST's on summer saturdays are declassified beyond Swansea (or Carmarthen?)

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I remember some years ago, when the Class 171s made their debut on the Uckfield line, but before the service ran regularly through to / from London Bridge, so one had to change at Hurst Green or Oxted. I had a long and heated argument with the conductor that insisted I move from First Class, despite all Oxted-Uckfield "shuttle" services at that time being advertised as being Standard Class only. I even rang Southern customer services, and the lady on the end of the phone told me the same thing. Even though I thought that they were both wrong, I (un)graciously admitted defeat and moved into Standard Class. I think the train was 3/4 empty, but the Guard was not for relenting!

 

[Greenback]

Hi there

I assume that the Paddington to Pembroke Dock HST's on summer saturdays are declassified beyond Swansea (or Carmarthen?)

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

I can't say for definite, but I would think that the availability of Weekend First supplements would be an earner on that sort of Summer Saturday train aimed at the leisure market!

 

[jon0844]

Where is the official documentation about this - a couple of people who I see regularly on my journey did not believe that they could use 1st class when I said it was a declassified service - I was looking for some documentation to show them for future occasions.
I can't see anything in the NCoc relating to declassified services (other than entitlement to a refund if you hold a 1st class ticket)

FCC will write you a letter to confirm that you can use first class with a standard ticket on services not marked with a '1', but I have to say that I do try and keep this fact quiet for my own benefit!

RPIs will also generally keep quiet (and most know, but some will try it on even if you tell them.. and even if you SHOW them the timetable) and I've never heard a driver tell anyone unless it was originally a 6-car and was short-formed (in which case, it would be declassified anyway - but staff might announce it in a way that makes it sound like a one off).

There are a surprising number of peak trains that are declassified, but sadly the one I take in the morning has gone the other way - introducing first class (but going from 4-car to 8-car in the process).

I commuted from Harlington for nearly 20 years, and the diagrams were confused just about every every week so that FC availability often did not correspond to the timetable; no FC when there was supposed to be, and FC when it wasn't advertised.

This is why on the GN side, FCC doesn't offer FC on any services that could be mixed between a 317/321/365 and a 313. That's why there are so many - although the downside of securing so many 321s is that most services are no longer going to be run with 313s ever, and FCC can pretty much guarantee the number of coaches (and have done since the December 'more seats' change) for the morning and evening peaks, and as such in the next timetable change there's a chance FC will be introduced on them.

 

[SAPhil]

In common with some of the other posters I am a regular user of FCC's Thameslink service. Thanks for the replies - at least I now know where I stand (literally for a lot of the time!).

 

[wintonian]

The far North Lines - Inverness to Kyle and Wick/Thurso currently use 158s complete with 1st class seating, but are shown in the timetable as standard class only.

The last time I travelled on them, I checked with the conductor and was told it was OK to sit in those seats with a standard class ticket.

Also the HST EMT used from Nottingham- Skegness last summer had its first class declassified, offering an extremely comfortable run that is normally formed of a 15x unit! I believe it had its buffet open too! Now there was luxury!

Ah thank you, I wondered why people were sitting in first with standard class tickets and the guard wasn't bothered about it. I didn't think to look at the timetable and I think it was the first time I have travel on a train with first class seating when not advertised as having first class available.

I do wish I had thought about it at the time as the far north line is a long time to be stuck in standard class seats.

 

[Flying Snail]

I do wish I had thought about it at the time as the far north line is a long time to be stuck in standard class seats.

The only difference on ScR 158s is a piece of white cloth draped over the headrest of the seats, certainly nothing to make the long journey any more comfortable.

 

[wintonian]

Yes but I did have my laptop and could have plugged it in.

Mind you I did consider plugging it in anyway and trailing the cable into standard class. Would that be a breach of the NCoC or the ticket validity if it was conveying first class?

 

[Barn]

Something I've always wondered:

I live on the Greenwich line, which is standard-class only. Now and again, a 465/9 will appear, which has small first-class areas.

I understand that, whilst on the metro line, these areas will be declassified. But what about the section between London Bridge and Charing Cross, which is served by many long-distance trains with 'real' first-class sections? Would people technically have to move out of the declassified area when we reach that bit?

 

[jon0844]

It won't change at any part of the journey, so if FC isn't advertised (which it can't presumably be if it is ever run with trains that are standard only) then you can sit there the whole bit!

And if you encountered any staff that said otherwise, they're 100% wrong.

Do check the timetable though, in case there are some services that are marked as first and do have that train always operating it.

 

[Barn]

It won't change at any part of the journey, so if FC isn't advertised (which it can't presumably be if it is ever run with trains that are standard only) then you can sit there the whole bit!

And if you encountered any staff that said otherwise, they're 100% wrong.

Do check the timetable though, in case there are some services that are marked as first and do have that train always operating it.

Thanks. Never any problems, just an academic query really!

 

[Failed Unit]

There are many routes in Scotland were the trains have first class but it isn't advertised. If you hold a 1st ticket they even apologise about the lack of the Trolley.

Inverness - Kyle / Wick
Fife Circle
Edinburgh / Glasgow - Dunblane
Glasgow - Falkirk via Cumbernauld
Edinburgh - Glasgow via Shotts
Motherwell - Cumbernauld
Glasgow - Anniesland
Edinburgh - Bathgate (at the moment)

are all routes I can think off the top of my head that have 1st class on the train but they are not advertised and hence declassified. (although 158 operated routes have no difference in seat spec between 1st and Standard anyway.)

 

[Drsatan]

FGW used to borrow a 158 from SWT (I'm not sure whether they're still using it) which like all of SWT's 158s and 159s had a first class section. Whenever I traveled on that 158 the guard would never inform the passengers that the first class section was declassified and anyone with a standard class only ticket could sit there. I'm assuming there's no obligation for the guard to inform passengers that the first class section's declassified if the service isn't advertised as having first class accommodation?

 

[At_traction]

FGW used to borrow a 158 from SWT (I'm not sure whether they're still using it) which like all of SWT's 158s and 159s had a first class section. Whenever I traveled on that 158 the guard would never inform the passengers that the first class section was declassified and anyone with a standard class only ticket could sit there. I'm assuming there's no obligation for the guard to inform passengers that the first class section's declassified if the service isn't advertised as having first class accommodation?

*Illuminati moment*
Perhaps there was a "secret memo" circulating to discourage that in order to gain 1st Class ticket sales...

 

[me123]

The "first class" section on the Scottish 158s only exists so that BR could avoid bad press about the removal of first class when the 158s were introduced. Even post refurbishment the only difference is the antimacassars.

The FC on 158s is nearly identical to the SC seating. I've even seen people thrown out of FC on a number of occasions who claimed not to be able to tell the difference (and, to be honest, I can hardly blame them to be fair!). I don't think declassifying it has ever been a problem on those ones. That said, I'm not sure what happens when a 170 goes on such a route (where FC is much more spacious, and is protected by a screen which is rather hard to miss!)

FWIW, I actually prefer the SC seats on the 158s

 

[Failed Unit]

Nothing me123. If is totally declassified when the appear on the Dunblane route.

 

[Deerfold]

FGW used to borrow a 158 from SWT (I'm not sure whether they're still using it) which like all of SWT's 158s and 159s had a first class section. Whenever I traveled on that 158 the guard would never inform the passengers that the first class section was declassified and anyone with a standard class only ticket could sit there. I'm assuming there's no obligation for the guard to inform passengers that the first class section's declassified if the service isn't advertised as having first class accommodation?

I suspect it's not top of their list of priorities. Though we did get a SWT-liveried train running on Leeds - Skipton some time ago. The guard was directing passengers to the 1st class section saying "do sit in there, it's rather nice". It was OK.