Unacceptable train overcrowding to get worse, MPs say

[wintonian]

Unacceptable train overcrowding to get worse, MPs say

This bit stuck out at me:

...

It recommends that the DfT should require all new train carriages to be fitted with automatic passenger counting equipment to show how many people are travelling and when.

Would the collected data make any diffrence considering we know pepole travel in the peaks to/ from London and the trains are overcrowded due to a lack of capacity, only some lines are overcrowded more than others?

 

[142094]

Unacceptable train overcrowding to get worse, MPs say

This bit stuck out at me:



Would the collected data make any diffrence considering we know pepole travel in the peaks to/ from London and the trains are overcrowded due to a lack of capacity, only some lines are overcrowded more than others?

Taking an example from around Leeds, in the peak, trains to Dewsbury and Huddersfield direct on TPE are packed yet the stopping services run by Northern normally have some seats left. However most people would say that the line is overcrowded, but passenger numbers for the route may be spread out meaning that the TPE trains show up as less crowded than they actually are. So if counters were placed on the trains it might give a better representation of how full the TPEs are and how empty the Northern's are.

 

[wintonian]

True, but that relies on all the trains on the line being fitted with this new system and if the article is anything to go by that will only be on new stock.

 

[Failed Unit]

Remember as well that in some areas the number of people on the trains is not known. On my line if the 153 is overcrowded no tickets are sold so the operator can't prove how many people were on it. This was a common problem for CT as some trains carried people for free as the gaurd could not get down the train. At least counting equipment can prove every single day how many people are on a train.

Ct one reduced a train from 2 coaches to one based on the passenger count in the school holiday when most of it's users were on leave! Tocs can't count everyday so having the equipment in the train gives a real view.

 

[Metroland]

Chiltern was the only franchise that was praised.

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/...ding-should-be-used-elsewhere-65233-27621768/

The rest were criticised for being too dependent on public subsidy before they did anything.

Considering that 1) most of the franchises are very short and you'd never get your money back 2) Buying more peak trains, means off peak they sit around empty costing the franchise money and the DFT want premiums or low subisidy 3) Often increases in capacity is dependent on NR as well - equally criticised because it's 40% more expensive that elsewhere.

It's all much as to be expected - yes it's a clear bowler tip for longer franchises and breaking up NR.

Meanwhile Railnews gives a different slant

THE Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons has warned that future increases in demand cannot be met indefinitely by longer trains, and is calling for peak time demand to be controlled by yield management. [That's higher fares in the peak to you and me] It is also very critical of Network Rail, the Department for Transport and the ORR.

In a new report published this morning, called ‘Increasing passenger rail capacity’, the Committee says that the Office of Rail Regulation [An ineffective quango that employs over 300 people ]has demonstrated a ‘lack of urgency and effectiveness’ in taking action over Network Rail’s costs.

It says the National Audit Office should be supervising Network Rail expenditure [Another quango, supervising another quango that's sort of private], having heard in evidence from the ORR that NR has ‘an expensive approach’. It gave the example of platform extensions, which it said could have been 25 per cent cheaper had modular construction been used.

The Committee is concerned that the Department for Transport is missing its targets on dealing with rail overcrowding, and that the DfT is wrong when it maintains that overcrowding depends on the level of public subsidy, when it could be reduced by better control of costs.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/11/09-peak-time-demand-must-be.html

 

[emoaconr]

I would have thought the ORR was no real difference in size to the residual BRB that was left between 1997 and 2001?

 

[wibble]

Would the collected data make any diffrence considering we know pepole travel in the peaks to/ from London and the trains are overcrowded due to a lack of capacity, only some lines are overcrowded more than others?

Not really. Most planners have experience of their busy trains and will already allocate stock to the most appropriate services. The only options available to most TOCs is to replace 2+2 seating with 2+3. (Train lengthening might not always be possible) Otherwise, TOCs can price people off busier trains in favour of quieter ones although there doesn't appear to be much of a shift!
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...
It recommends that the DfT should require all new train carriages to be fitted with automatic passenger counting equipment to show how many people are travelling and when.

I thought this was the case already with newer franchises. SWT have counting equipment on a third of their stock and have retrofitted them to older stock such as 455s.

 

[wintonian]

It says the National Audit Office should be supervising Network Rail expenditure [Another quango, supervising another quango that's sort of private],

Ahh yes but isn't it being abolished?

I thought this was the case already with newer franchises. SWT have counting equipment on a third of their stock and have retrofitted them to older stock such as 455s.

Never knew that!

 

[swt_passenger]

Not really. Most planners have experience of their busy trains and will already allocate stock to the most appropriate services. The only options available to most TOCs is to replace 2+2 seating with 2+3...

That'll be why there are examples of trains originally fitted with 2+3 seating having it replaced with 2+2, to give more standing capacity then?

Merseyrail 507s and 508s, SWT 455s, SN 313s, LO 313s, 2+3 partially removed in some of SWT's 450s.

You could also think of 378s as Electrostars with 2+2 or 2+3 seating removed and replaced with longitudinal seating.

Capacity is a combination of the seated + 'designed standing' capacity on inner suburban services - it is only on longer distance services where capacity = seats; so removing seats can and does increase capacity.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SWT have counting equipment on a third of their stock and have retrofitted them to older stock such as 455s.

Never knew that!

If you look above your head when stood right against the door on a 444 or 450 you'll see a row of IR sensors on certain units in the fleet.

I should think if everyone wore hats it might confuse the count...

Not sure how it works on 455s, but some older units have had load cells fitted on the bogies that can measure the overall weight increase, which statisticians can convert into passenger numbers.

 

[wintonian]

As mentioned in another thread – you learn something new every day.

I'll have a look later.

 

[jon0844]

FCC has got a huge team of people counting passengers today at Finsbury Park (and possibly King's Cross?).

I am wondering if they're doing this ahead of the December timetable change, with another one afterwards to monitor how successful it has been?

 

[philjo]

according to this document (see page 18 at the link below), assuming the schedule was adhered to FCC have got passenger load monitoring equipment fitted to:

eight class 319 units
and IR equipment to be fitted by the end of 2007 to:
four class 313 units
two class 317 units
four class 365 units.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/publicregister/current/fcc1/fccfranchiseagreement.pdf

it goes on to say the following should be fitted
three Class 317 units by the first anniversary of the Start Date;
ten Class 365 units by the first anniversary of the Start Date;
ten Class 313 units by the second anniversary of the Start Date; and
21 Class 319 units by the second anniversary of the Start Date.


I suspect the 377s have it fitted as standard ?

 

[tbtc]

SWT have counting equipment on a third of their stock and have retrofitted them to older stock such as 455s

EMT supposedly had this (or were going to introduce this) to their 158s on the Norwich - Liverpool service. The story doing the rounds was that Central Trains gave the DFT duff information about passenger levels, hence London Midland getting a much more generous share of the Central fleet than East Midlands did (and the 170s moving from the Norwich service to local routes in the West Midlands).

EMT were meant to be getting these "counters". However, I never heard the result of this to know whether (1) it happened or (2) it made any difference.

It ought to be a really good simple idea. Collect the data like this, to tally against ticket sales/ automatic barrier figures, to give a figure on what stations are busiest, what times are most important.

Considering the millions of journeys made, we don't have completely accurate data on flows of passengers. It might make quite a difference to the ORCATS revenue share if these stats were used to distribute the money (e.g. you may have a line where two operators run services, neither are overtaken, but a clear majority of passengers go for the longer/faster train, yet both TOCs get a 50% share of the revenue at the moment)

 

[wibble]

Capacity is a combination of the seated + 'designed standing' capacity on inner suburban services - it is only on longer distance services where capacity = seats; so removing seats can and does increase capacity.

You're right - sorry! I did hear someone say that train capacity for inner suburban was based on the total passenger floor space, excluding toilets.

If you look above your head when stood right against the door on a 444 or 450 you'll see a row of IR sensors on certain units in the fleet.

I should think if everyone wore hats it might confuse the count...

Or, if you're one a 158 or 159 it's opposite the enternal door buttons.

Not sure how it works on 455s, but some older units have had load cells fitted on the bogies that can measure the overall weight increase, which statisticians can convert into passenger numbers.

SWT's 455s have the same system as the 450s. They use infrared to count people boarding and alighting and can be very accurate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FCC has got a huge team of people counting passengers today at Finsbury Park (and possibly King's Cross?).

I am wondering if they're doing this ahead of the December timetable change, with another one afterwards to monitor how successful it has been?

Might be part of the Autumn Terminal counts for the DfT....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It ought to be a really good simple idea. Collect the data like this, to tally against ticket sales/ automatic barrier figures, to give a figure on what stations are busiest, what times are most important.

Always take gate data with a large pinch of salt! If you look at Euston's gates (now removed for relocation) the wide aisle gate is never closed with people constantly using it!

Considering the millions of journeys made, we don't have completely accurate data on flows of passengers. It might make quite a difference to the ORCATS revenue share if these stats were used to distribute the money (e.g. you may have a line where two operators run services, neither are overtaken, but a clear majority of passengers go for the longer/faster train, yet both TOCs get a 50% share of the revenue at the moment)

I think ORCATS does a pretty good job as is, but TOCs can always challenge their allocation if they feel that more people are using their service over another.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How does the counting equipment work? Is it some sort of beam across the doors or is it a carriage load weighing thing that works by dividing the payload by an "average passenger weight" figure?

 

[swt_passenger]

How does the counting equipment work? Is it some sort of beam across the doors or is it a carriage load weighing thing that works by dividing the payload by an "average passenger weight" figure?

Both - one example in new stock has IR scanning above the doors that is clever enough to count the heads passing in both directions at once.

On older units with air suspension they can measure the
loaded weight increase using the changes in pressure apparently.

 

[PhilipW]

Not much point in counting people if you are not going to do anything about the overcrowding.

 

[Lampshade]

Not much point in counting people if you are not going to do anything about the overcrowding.

I can see the logic, if one service is crush loaded but another fifteen minutes later carting around fresh air then it would show where and when the overcrowding is taking place, as well as where the fewest/greatest numbers of passengers are alighting and it might enable TOCs to spread the passenger load between services. An example is Northern/TPE - everyone jumps on the TPE when there is a Northern service following it.

Rolling stock also has an effect. It's very common for people waiting at Preston/Bolton to see a 142 on the Northern service and then wait for the TPE - therefore an empty 142 which just gives Northern an excuse to continue using 142s. It works the other way round as well, a lot of people snub the afternoon peak Blackpool TPE because the next Northern service from Piccadilly is usually a 180 with a lot more room.

 

[jon0844]

To be fair to many TOCs, they have worked hard to revise timetables and move stock around to give more seats on busy services.

I speak again for FCC (GN) which has done loads to improve services, with a lot of changes to train times and calling patterns, to cope with certain constraints on the route (such as Welwyn North/Digswell). This was being worked on right back from 2006 with provisional plans given out soon after First took over - and they did then go on and implement the changes.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

How does the counting equipment work? Is it some sort of beam across the doors or is it a carriage load weighing thing that works by dividing the payload by an "average passenger weight" figure?

Scotrail use both. There's a 334 and I think, 158 or something, each equipped with a different method.

 

[Vulcan]

'Unacceptable train overcrowding'

Not really 'unacceptable' when its actually accepted every day by all passengers. When did you ever see someone saying 'this train is so crowded its unacceptable' and not try and squeeze themselves in? 'Pretty bad train overcrowding' would be a more accurate phrase!

[/'I'll think you'll find...']

 

[Eric]

Did anyone see the clip on BBC News 24 earlier on today with the Voyager absolutely packed and at saturation point?

They should film the 16:03 from Birmingham heading North on a Friday evening for a true picture as to how bad unacceptable train overcrowding is.

 

[142094]

'Unacceptable train overcrowding'

Not really 'unacceptable' when its actually accepted every day by all passengers. When did you ever see someone saying 'this train is so crowded its unacceptable' and not try and squeeze themselves in? 'Pretty bad train overcrowding' would be a more accurate phrase!

On some lines you'd be waiting for a good few hours to get a service which wasn't packed. The problem with building new stock is that for most of the day they'd be sitting idle, only to be used in the peak times.

 

[mindfeeder]

Well the train catch every day (Leamington to Coventry) it's pretty much accepted by us regular users and we just get on with it knowing XC probably doesn't care too much.

 

[jon0844]

Is it fair for the Government to place all the blame on the TOCs though? I mean, the DfT sets the franchises and what rolling stock will be used, and what times the trains will run, pretty much.

Of course, if that is going to change and TOCs will be able to do more (and this must mean longer franchises) then that has to be a good thing - but is it fair to blame them for now when they're doing things with one hand tied behind their back?

 

[Greenback]

It may not be fair, but it's convenient! It's been obvious for several years that we need additional capacity in many areas, and not always at what have traditionally been peak times either. The Voyagers are a disastrous train, whcih are simply not good enough or long enough for the routes they operate on. Yet no one has done anything about it, not government, not the ROSCO's, not the TOC's. To my way of thinking, the whole structure of the railway is compeltely wrong.

 

[Vulcan]

It seems odd to me that railway companies can't just buy new stock. How many other businesses need permission from the government to invest in new equipment? I suppose its all to do with the fact its all frachiesed, but its still a bit daft in my opinion.

 

[paul1609]

It seems odd to me that railway companies can't just buy new stock. How many other businesses need permission from the government to invest in new equipment? I suppose its all to do with the fact its all frachiesed, but its still a bit daft in my opinion.

I think its more to do with the fact that nearly every railway journey in the uk is subsidised by the govt. If you add more capacity your inevitably going to need more subsidy,

 

[jon0844]

FGW did and I think the DfT got worried as First can (and probably would) take them with them to another route if they wanted.

 

[LE Greys]

FGW did and I think the DfT got worried as First can (and probably would) take them with them to another route if they wanted.

Yet another reason why the franchise system is rubbish. :roll:

Actually, there ought to be a clause somewhere that says that if a TOC buys stock for a route, if they lose the franchise, they should sell that stock to a ROSCO or the Government (who would sell it on to a ROSCO) at market price. As a result, you're generating new stock every time a TOC places an order. However, TOCs don't place orders because . . . they just don't. Bit hard to understand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It may not be fair, but it's convenient! It's been obvious for several years that we need additional capacity in many areas, and not always at what have traditionally been peak times either. The Voyagers are a disastrous train, whcih are simply not good enough or long enough for the routes they operate on. Yet no one has done anything about it, not government, not the ROSCO's, not the TOC's. To my way of thinking, the whole structure of the railway is compeltely wrong.

Have to agree there. That's what comes from short-termism, as generated by the franchising system. Lack of long-term investment (new stock) results in the same service being reheated with 'refurbishment' every now and then.