Unable to produce 16 - 25 railcard

[TomatoSalad197]

Hi everyone

Looking for advice. I am quite inconsolable about this and I am experiencing extreme anxiety over this whole thing.

I was travelling from London and bought my ticket (Thameslink) on Trainline. It automatically had 16-25 railcard checked. Halfway through my journey, a ticket inspector checked my ticket and asked me to produce my railcard. Last year, (my railcard was multi year contract) my railcard was stolen (this was reported to police, it was in my bag). I never had access to a digital railcard (can't for the life of me work out why, I got it for free so I wonder if that is why). So therefore, I was unable to produce it. I explained that my railcard had been stolen and I wasn't able to produce it. Despite this, he give me a slip giving me 14 days to produce it so I am unable to dispose of it by paying a penalty fare. Further to this, when I came home I had a horrible realisation that I'm not even sure that railcard is valid anymore (I cannot find any information as to whether it is or isn't) and so I'm not sure that even if I could produce it that it would be valid. I am very obviously aware that this is my fault and it's a stupid mistake that I've made. However, I am incredibly anxious about how I can reach a resolution without being prosecuted as this was an honest mistake and, beyond paying a hefty fine, I don't want this to have a material impact on the rest of my life, such as my career. I bought quite a few tickets on trainline within the last 6 months all with a railcard, so I am prepared for the fact that any settlement out of court will take those into consideration and luckily I have a safety blanket of some savings (given I think it's around 40-50 journeys). I'm looking for advice about the best way to deal with this. I have been provided with a link to upload a railcard which of course I am unable to do. Is it best to submit a letter in the upload box to stop this hanging over my head and explain the situation? Better to wait for the letter to come through? Should I let them know I'm now unsure if my railcard is even valid, or for now explain what I know and that I am unable to upload as it was stolen? I have read other threads in this forum and know that in any letter I should show what I've learnt, that I am remorseful, and that I will cooperate fully to come to any settlement to avoid it going to court. I'm just so frustrated that something like this has happened as I'm something of a 'goody two shoes' and would never knowingly evade any fare. Any advice on what to do and the likely processes that this will involve would be really useful as right now I am just panicking and want to get it resolved as promptly as possible so that I can ease my anxieties.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2024 ==

Also, if I just pay any settlement offer that they offer me following this and don't even challenge the offer that they provide me with (unless of course that it is so substantial I don't have the means to pay), then is that case closed and they won't prosecute? I am happy to acknowledge that this is completely my fault and therefore pay the damages as it was such a ridiculous oversight. I'm just more worried that it gets pursued further and I know that I won't be able to cope with that stress mentally.

 

[John R]

GTR (Thameslink) is very good at offering settlements out of court, so you should put your mind at rest that you are going to be prosecuted - it’s highly unlikely.

Whilst it was unfortunate that your railcard was stolen, you needed to address the lack of a valid railcard before using any further tickets with a railcard discount, and you are required to always travel with it. So whilst the fact that it was stolen will provide a degree of mitigation (if evidenced) the fact that you didn’t bother to purchase another one for several months whilst continuing to travel frequently using discounted tickets will offset that somewhat. You clearly aren’t as much of a “goody two shoes” as you say you are, else you would have bought a new railcard.

I’m not sure it will make any difference whether you upload an apology now, or do nothing and wait for the inevitable letter. So long as you then engage positively with an appropriately apologetic letter and ask nicely for a settlement, you should get offered one.

 

[TomatoSalad197]

GTR (Thameslink) is very good at offering settlements out of court, so you should put your mind at rest that you are going to be prosecuted - it’s highly unlikely.

Whilst it was unfortunate that your railcard was stolen, you needed to address the lack of a valid railcard before using any further tickets with a railcard discount, and you are required to always travel with it. So whilst the fact that it was stolen will provide a degree of mitigation (if evidenced) the fact that you didn’t bother to purchase another one for several months whilst continuing to travel frequently using discounted tickets will offset that somewhat. You clearly aren’t as much of a “goody two shoes” as you say you are, else you would have bought a new railcard.

I’m not sure it will make any difference whether you upload an apology now, or do nothing and wait for the inevitable letter. So long as you then engage positively with an appropriately apologetic letter and ask nicely for a settlement, you should get offered one.

Hi John, thanks for your response. Yeah of course and in hindsight it's such an obvious and preventable mistake, which is why I'm so frustrated with myself. In terms of engaging and cooperating with them positively, what would you recommend to be the correct approach? Is the best way to acknowledge that it is a significant oversight and show that I have learnt from it (such as by purchasing a digital railcard so it is always on my persons once the letter arrives) and state that I am happy to offer my full and sincere cooperation to come to a reasonable settlement on this matter, that I intend to pay as soon as I receive notification of the amount etc? I have a crime reference number from the Met police for when my purse was stolen so I assume that would be sufficient to show that it was stolen - but get your point that it is mitigating however obviously does not waive the consequences. More than happy to pay for my error because that's how it is and should work, just more concerned that I am willing to do this so don't want it to go beyond that and how best to get it across and get it sorted.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are lots of unanswered questions here.

Where did you get your railcard from? How was it free? Do you have any proof of purchase/issuing at all? Why did you not replace it?

The train company will possibly want to see proof that you did in fact have a railcard, because they may audit your ticket purchasing accounts and decide that if you cannot prove proof, they will want the full Anytime fares for the instances where you claimed a discount but could not substantiate it.

 

[John R]

I’d certainly buy a railcard straight away, if, as seems likely you travel enough to make it cost effective.

There are plenty of examples of how to write a good letter along the lines you suggest, and plenty of bad ones too, normally starting “I hope you are well” and written by AI. The important thing is to cooperate, apologise, and ask nicely for a settlement offer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

There are lots of unanswered questions here.

Where did you get your railcard from? How was it free? Do you have any proof of purchase/issuing at all? Why did you not replace it?

The train company will possibly want to see proof that you did in fact have a railcard, because they may audit your ticket purchasing accounts and decide that if you cannot prove proof, they will want the full Anytime fares for the instances where you claimed a discount but could not substantiate it.

Isn’t that the normal approach anyway, even for GTR, if a railcard discount has been applied without a valid railcard being held?

 

[TomatoSalad197]

There are lots of unanswered questions here.

Where did you get your railcard from? How was it free? Do you have any proof of purchase/issuing at all? Why did you not replace it?

The train company will possibly want to see proof that you did in fact have a railcard, because they may audit your ticket purchasing accounts and decide that if you cannot prove proof, they will want the full Anytime fares for the instances where you claimed a discount but could not substantiate it.

Thanks for your response. It was issued with my bank account when I opened it - so I cannot prove purchase as I never had to purchase it, it was just sent to me via post. I am hoping with some digging I'll be able to find the proof it was issued with my account. I didn't replace it as when I looked online following the theft there didn't seem to be a way to re-order it & report it and I was on a multi-year contract. I imagined that would likely be a problem re auditing ticket purchasing account and I'm happy to pay the full fare, won't bother appealing it as just want it sorted. Just want to be in the best position to settle it based on that so grateful for any advice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

I’d certainly buy a railcard straight away, if, as seems likely you travel enough to make it cost effective.

There are plenty of examples of how to write a good letter along the lines you suggest, and plenty of bad ones too, normally starting “I hope you are well” and written by AI. The important thing is to cooperate, apologise, and ask nicely for a settlement offer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==


Isn’t that the normal approach anyway, even for GTR, if a railcard discount has been applied without a valid railcard being held?

Thanks John, appreciate your feedback.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for your response. It was issued with my bank account when I opened it - so I cannot prove purchase as I never had to purchase it, it was just sent to me via post. I am hoping with some digging I'll be able to find the proof it was issued with my account. I didn't replace it as when I looked online following the theft there didn't seem to be a way to re-order it & report it and I was on a multi-year contract.

If it's Santander, for example, the guidance is here: https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/hel...-santander-16-25-railcard-is-lost-or-damaged/

I imagined that would likely be a problem re auditing ticket purchasing account and I'm happy to pay the full fare, won't bother appealing it as just want it sorted.

40-50 journeys at full fare is quite a lot of money and depending on what they are it could run into the thousands of pounds. Are you sure you've exhausted your options in finding proof of your railcard? It should not be too difficult.

 

[TomatoSalad197]

If it's Santander, for example, the guidance is here: https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/hel...-santander-16-25-railcard-is-lost-or-damaged/


40-50 journeys at full fare is quite a lot of money and depending on what they are it could run into the thousands of pounds. Are you sure you've exhausted your options in finding proof of your railcard? It should not be too difficult.

I found proof a few minutes ago, and of course, worst case of scenario - it has expired in the last few months. Given that, I know it's my best option to pay an out of court settlement. Luckily I have some savings and the full fares are between £15 - £18 as I tend to travel off peak. If I can pay around £800 - £1000 including administrative costs (as most of them were around the £11 full fare mark) then at this rate I'm happy as long as I can avoid a criminal record or going to court. I would rather just have it sorted and face the consequences than have it on my record. At then end of the day, it's my responsibility to check that (obviously) and I've made that error, so I'd rather just face the consequences in terms of money than have it permanently on my record. Is it still worth mentioning that it was stolen to serve as an explanation or just tell them that I sought proof to provide to them that I had a valid railcard and upon doing so realised it was expired? I presume given that they're not going to care that it got stolen so not sure there's any point to go down that avenue and provide crime reference number etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

I found proof a few minutes ago, and of course, worst case of scenario - it has expired in the last few months. Given that, I know it's my best option to pay an out of court settlement. Luckily I have some savings and the full fares are between £15 - £18 as I tend to travel off peak. If I can pay around £800 - £1000 including administrative costs (as most of them were around the £11 full fare mark) then at this rate I'm happy as long as I can avoid a criminal record or going to court. I would rather just have it sorted and face the consequences than have it on my record. At then end of the day, it's my responsibility to check that (obviously) and I've made that error, so I'd rather just face the consequences in terms of money than have it permanently on my record. Is it still worth mentioning that it was stolen to serve as an explanation or just tell them that I sought proof to provide to them that I had a valid railcard and upon doing so realised it was expired? I presume given that they're not going to care that it got stolen so not sure there's any point to go down that avenue and provide crime reference number etc.

I don't think the fact it was stolen matters much here. It was up to you to replace it and you didn't - and the bigger thing here is you let it expire anyway.

Best to wait for the letter at this stage - they may not even check your booking history; they don't do this every time.

 

[TomatoSalad197]

I don't think the fact it was stolen matters much here. It was up to you to replace it and you didn't - and the bigger thing here is you let it expire anyway.

Best to wait for the letter at this stage - they may not even check your booking history; they don't do this every time.

Yeah agreed. Annoyed with myself but you're right - I didn't replace it. Having had a look through this forum I can see that it's quite common that people are caught out with expired railcards. Would really appreciate any advice when the letter comes on the best way to draft a response to maximise my chances of being able to reach an out of court settlement. Is it best when that letter comes to provide the reference number of my expired railcard and evidence that I had one in the first place? Or to just state that upon looking for evidence to provide, it has come to my attention that it has expired and take responsibility for the fact I should have had more diligence, kindly request an out of court settlement and that I'm willing to do this as soon as possible, etc.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Would really appreciate any advice when the letter comes on the best way to draft a response to maximise my chances of being able to reach an out of court settlement. Is it best when that letter comes to provide the reference number of my expired railcard and evidence that I had one in the first place? Or to just state that upon looking for evidence to provide, it has come to my attention that it has expired and take responsibility for the fact I should have had more diligence, kindly request an out of court settlement and that I'm willing to do this as soon as possible, etc.

Our general advice is that it's important to engage with the process. In this case, as you have a slip asking you to send details of your Railcard, I would suggest you need to respond to that to say that you now realise you don't have one. Also explain that it was stolen with your purse (give the crime number). As the railway are expecting a picture of your Railcard, write this up as a paper letter, take a picture of it and send that picture where they expected the Railcard.

In all honesty, the railway will probably ignore this, and write to you again, threatening prosecution. You will then have to write again saying much the same: @Hadders has some excellent model points to make when you write that letter. But you will have shown that you are trying to work with the railway, and they may move a little quicker to offering a settlement if you try!

 

[30907]

Our general advice is that it's important to engage with the process. In this case, as you have a slip asking you to send details of your Railcard, I would suggest you need to respond to that to say that you now realise you don't have one. Also explain that it was stolen with your purse (give the crime number). As the railway are expecting a picture of your Railcard, write this up as a paper letter, take a picture of it and send that picture where they expected the Railcard.

If there is space for additional info, repeat the contents there briefly!

IMO it would do no harm to add that, on checking, you discovered that your railcard had expired - they will (1) check your travel history and probably (2) ask for evidence of previous railcards anyway.

 

[TomatoSalad197]

Helloo, I still haven’t received a letter and it has been two months now. Is this normal or would it be sensible to contact them myself just in case they’ve sent it to the wrong place etc and I haven’t received it? I was under impression it’s usually 4-6 weeks, but I know there can be delays so not sure whether to wait it out!

 

[Hadders]

As long as you gave them your correct contact address there's nothing to be gained by contacting them before you receive their initial letter. Even if you do contact them they are unlikely to be able to match your case without the case reference number.

4-6 weeks seems to be about the normal timescale for GTR but it does vary. They deal with hundreds of cases at a time and only have a small team dealing with this work.

 

[HJM72817]

Hello OP, I just wanted to put your mind at ease a little bit. I just dealt with GTR after they uncovered five years of me using a railcard I've never owned, with 260+ instances PLUS irregular refunds and partial ticket purchases. And they still settled out of court. You should be absolutely fine. GTR can use quite aggressive language to ensure you cooperate, but they ultimately wound up being far more fair with me than they needed to be. Just ensure them you've learned your lesson!

 

[agogo]

To the OP, I do feel for you and am sure that your case will be resolved without prosecution. My son has had a similar situation (16-25 railcard through Santander) with Govia and it has been very stress-inducing. I am so worried that I am considering legal help to ensure no prosecution. I've looked into Manak Solicitors. Has anyone else used them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2024 ==

Hello OP, I just wanted to put your mind at ease a little bit. I just dealt with GTR after they uncovered five years of me using a railcard I've never owned, with 260+ instances PLUS irregular refunds and partial ticket purchases. And they still settled out of court. You should be absolutely fine. GTR can use quite aggressive language to ensure you cooperate, but they ultimately wound up being far more fair with me than they needed to be. Just ensure them you've learned your lesson!

Would you mind sharing what you wrote in response please?

 

[signed]

To the OP, I do feel for you and am sure that your case will be resolved without prosecution. My son has had a similar situation (16-25 railcard through Santander) with Govia and it has been very stress-inducing. I am so worried that I am considering legal help to ensure no prosecution. I've looked into Manak Solicitors. Has anyone else used them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2024 ==


Would you mind sharing what you wrote in response please?

Please open a new thread for your case, posting every paperwork you have with your personal information redacted

 

[WesternLancer]

To the OP, I do feel for you and am sure that your case will be resolved without prosecution. My son has had a similar situation (16-25 railcard through Santander) with Govia and it has been very stress-inducing. I am so worried that I am considering legal help to ensure no prosecution. I've looked into Manak Solicitors. Has anyone else used them?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2024 ==


Would you mind sharing what you wrote in response please?

Probably worth you starting a new thread to get some specific advice. Govia regularly let people settle out of court by their own efforts and advice from here, but if that failed that maybe the time to consult a solicitor. Manak get mentioned on here in positive terms from time to time it can be added, but of course their help comes with a fee so you may wish to ask for a quote before proceeding with them or any other lawyer for that matter. I do not recall any negative feedback from people who have used them.

 

[PaulJ]

I’m presuming your railcard was issued by Santander. There is specific information on what to do in your scenario on the railcard website - see https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/santander/

 

[agogo]

Probably worth you starting a new thread to get some specific advice. Govia regularly let people settle out of court by their own efforts and advice from here, but if that failed that maybe the time to consult a solicitor. Manak get mentioned on here in positive terms from time to time it can be added, but of course their help comes with a fee so you may wish to ask for a quote before proceeding with them or any other lawyer for that matter. I do not recall any negative feedback from people who have used them.

Thanks. That is reassuring.

 

[agogo]

I’m presuming your railcard was issued by Santander. There is specific information on what to do in your scenario on the railcard website - see https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/santander/

Thank you. He called Santander to explain that he'd been advised that the activation email would suffice. They have since given him a credit to purchase a new 16-25 railcard.