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Ulverstone to Carlisle

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ashworth

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Could anyone give me any information on how much I would be charged for a Day Return from Ulverstone to Carlisle if I was to pay on the day at Ulverstone station?
The reason I ask is that when looking at websites such as Southern and NXEC it gives an amazingly cheap fare of only £15.50 that is available both via Lancaster and via Barrow. This fare does not seem to be available on websites using The Trainline.
Is this a mistake, and if I booked it online would the on train staff have to accept it without any questions or problems? I would really like to pay on the day so that I can choose a day when the weather is good so wondered if this fare would be vailable at Ulverstone station.

Sorry heading should read Ulverston!
 
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ChrisTheRef

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£15.50 if you return on the same day and travel direct on one train only.

You can purchase this from the ticket office before you board the train
 

John @ home

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£15.50 if you return on the same day and travel direct on one train only.
I don't agree with the on one train only bit. The Fares Manual does show an Ulverston - Carlisle Anytime Day Return (SDR) route Direct for £15.50.

There are Anytime Day Single (SDS), Anytime Day Return (SDR) and Anytime Return (SOR) fares Ulverston - Carlisle route Direct, all valid for break of journey.

I don't know of anywhere that defines Direct for British railway routeing purposes as on one train only. If that were the case, then it would not be possible to use a Horsforth - Scarborough ticket because there are no services which enable the journey to be made without changing and the only tickets available are route Direct.

If more than one person is travelling and it's a day trip, a Northern Duo ticket may be suitable. This is priced at £23.20 for two people who must travel together. Break of journey is only permitted for connectional purposes on the outward journey and at anytime on the return journey.

John
 
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John @ home

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websites such as Southern and NXEC it gives an amazingly cheap fare of only £15.50 that is available both via Lancaster and via Barrow. This fare does not seem to be available on websites using The Trainline.
These discrepancies arise because the internet booking engines use approximations of the National Routeing Guide, but they don't all use the same approximation. This is perhaps understandable when the train companies set fares with the restriction "Route Direct" but then don't define what that means.

The calculation is even more complex here because the Routeing Guide says that the shortest route must be calculated from the GB Train Timetable, and that gives Ulverston - Carlisle via Lancaster and via Barrow as equal at 94.5 miles. That would suggest you can choose to use either route, and may well be the reason why it is available on National Express Group and similar sites.

It may be that the person who set this fare intended it to be used by through trains, or on the route taken by through trains. It is doubtful if that could be enforced, given the lack of a clear definition.
if I booked it online would the on train staff have to accept it
Ultimately, yes. Book online. Take a printout of your booking together with your tickets. Book reserved seats if using the Lancaster - Carlisle route. It would be perfectly evident to on-train staff that you were travelling in accordance with your contract.
without any questions or problems?
That may be a little too much to hope for.
I would really like to pay on the day so that I can choose a day when the weather is good so wondered if this fare would be available at Ulverston station.
Yes. It's available on the day. I suspect that Ulverston station staff would send you via Barrow.

John
 

ashworth

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Thanks for all this information which is all the very useful and interesting.
The main reason why I questioned as to whether the station staff at Ulverston would know anything about, and indeed sell me this ticket, is because on the trainline operated websites this a Day return Ticket is not even listed. The cheapest fare being a £39.20 off peak return.
 

John @ home

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on the trainline operated websites this a Day return Ticket is not even listed. The cheapest fare being a £39.20 off peak return.
If you use the Northern site, and specify Ulverston to Carlisle via Barrow-in-Furness, the £15.50 fare appears.

John
 

janb

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Thanks for all this information which is all the very useful and interesting.
The main reason why I questioned as to whether the station staff at Ulverston would know anything about, and indeed sell me this ticket, is because on the trainline operated websites this a Day return Ticket is not even listed. The cheapest fare being a £39.20 off peak return.

If you are going via Barrow its going to be £15.50, and via Lancaster £39.20, although if travelling after 08.30 that way, then you are better off splitting at Lancaster with CDRs £7.50 + £16.50 = £24.
 

ashworth

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But don't forget as I pointed out in my original posting the £15.50 fare is also available via Lancaster if booked in advance using the system used on the NXEC, London Midland and Southern Websites.
 

yorkie

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If you are going via Barrow its going to be £15.50, and via Lancaster £39.20,
Why? Both routes are equally "direct"

Can you tell me what the valid route(s) are for Horsforth to Scarborough on a Route Direct ticket?
 

paul1609

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Thanks for all this information which is all the very useful and interesting.
The main reason why I questioned as to whether the station staff at Ulverston would know anything about, and indeed sell me this ticket, is because on the trainline operated websites this a Day return Ticket is not even listed. The cheapest fare being a £39.20 off peak return.

According to the Southern webtis there is a fast ticket machine at Ulverston so you should be able to sell it to yourself.
 

janb

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Why? Both routes are equally "direct"

I don't disagree that the ticket is badly labelled (and thus open to mischief making), it should just be routed BARROW rather than DIRECT. However clearly going that way is more direct (either on a through train or changing at Barrow) than going to Lancaster, changing from the Cumbrian Coast line to the West Coast Main Line, and going back on yourself. Another point is that the alternative tickets are explicitly routed LANCASTER which implies the others are not.

Can you tell me what the valid route(s) are for Horsforth to Scarborough on a Route Direct ticket?

Well I don't know the area, but it appears that going through York would be the 'direct' route. National Rail says 2 tickets required if going via Hull.
 

John @ home

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it should just be routed BARROW rather than DIRECT. However clearly going that way is more direct (either on a through train or changing at Barrow) than going to Lancaster
It is not clear to me that via Barrow is more direct. The National Routeing Guide states that distance must be measured using the GB Train Timetable. This gives Ulverston - Carlisle as 94.5 miles via Barrow and 94.5 miles via Lancaster. There is a slightly shorter permitted route via Bare Lane, but not a train service useful for this journey.

John
 

yorkie

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I don't disagree that the ticket is badly labelled (and thus open to mischief making), it should just be routed BARROW
On what basis do you make that assumption?
rather than DIRECT.
I think route Direct should be abolished, if that's what you are saying I agree.
However clearly going that way is more direct (either on a through train or changing at Barrow) than going to Lancaster,
How/why is it?
changing from the Cumbrian Coast line to the West Coast Main Line, and going back on yourself.
What has going back on yourself got to do with it? If anything that makes it more direct via Carnforth, as the mileage if the platforms still existed on the WCML would actually be less via Carnforth. When the platforms were removed, I'm told that they agreed to honour all tickets that would be valid that way via Lancaster. As far as the RG is concerned it is not doubling back. Do you think tickets from somewhere like Tottenham Hale to Shenfield are not valid via Liverpool Street on that basis? If not, how is it different? If so, why?
Another point is that the alternative tickets are explicitly routed LANCASTER which implies the others are not.
It doesn't really imply anything. The famous £1000+ ticket from Newquay to Kyle is routed "Not London", this implies it is not valid via London, but it is valid via London as it costs more than the "+Any Permitted". Implication means nothing when it comes to routeing.

Well I don't know the area, but it appears that going through York would be the 'direct' route. National Rail says 2 tickets required if going via Hull.
I agree, but how do you get to York?
 

janb

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On what basis do you make that assumption?

I think route Direct should be abolished, if that's what you are saying I agree.

How/why is it?

What has going back on yourself got to do with it?

I think it all comes down to ones interpretation of DIRECT. Which is why it shouldn't exist. Your primary concern seems to be mileage.

My belief is that the intention of the ticket is for use between Ulverston and Carlisle on the Cumbrian Coast. Hence the cheaper price, being set by Northern, and the use of the word direct in the way I would understand it (you set off walking directly for your target, as opposed to walking in the opposite direction, and turning round later on). I suspect (although I don't know for sure having never had to sell one) that Journey Planner would match my interpretation as well. In which case I would leave it up to the customer to have the inevitable arguments with the Northern/TPE/Virgin guards on the trains.


I agree, but how do you get to York?

The ticket appears to allow either via Leeds or 'directly' to York. So again could be better labelled, as perhaps just route YORK?

The difference with the above example though being that Horsforth appears to be part of Leeds, whereas Ulverston is most certainly not part of Lancaster.

However I quite accept that we should get rid of route DIRECT and replace with something clearer/less open to debate.
 

tony_mac

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it is down to interpretation of 'direct' - I assumed that it meant direct (through) trains only; but it doesn't like this is what it means.

Yes, I think it's obvious from the other fares that it is supposed to mean 'route Barrow' but customers shouldn't have to play 'guess the intention' and get penalised if they get it wrong.

It's not really relevant, but in terms of direction going via Barrow is at least as bad as going via Lancaster. If you take the first station on the route, going via Lancaster actually starts off as being more direct.

The Southern / EC journey planner describes the ticket as valid 'by the shortest direct route' and does say that it is valid via Lancaster. I agree that this probably isn't what was intended, but it's so ambiguous that even one of the retailers have got it wrong.

You probably won't see a Virgin guard between Lancaster and Carlisle anyway ;) And if you buy your ticket specifically for that route, with reservations to prove it, I doubt that they will do a great a deal about it other than complain.

Although not useful here, but If I am taking an odd route, I try and buy it from the TOC that I am going to use - then they can't argue that it had nothing to do with them, even if they are just a branding for thetrainline!
 

yorkie

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I think it all comes down to ones interpretation of DIRECT. Which is why it shouldn't exist. Your primary concern seems to be mileage.
For Any Permitted, direct trains are valid. The shortest (ie, most "direct") route(s) are valid. Mapped routes are valid. The only logical interpretation of "Route direct" is that the most direct route(s), ie the least mileage, are valid, and direct trains are also valid. This should be defined, but in the absence of a definition, no other sensible interpretation is possible IMO.
My belief is that the intention of the ticket is for use between Ulverston and Carlisle on the Cumbrian Coast.
But that's your belief, and even if it is correct, it does not matter what is intended.
Hence the cheaper price, being set by Northern, and the use of the word direct in the way I would understand it (you set off walking directly for your target, as opposed to walking in the opposite direction, and turning round later on).
I don't believe that any route that is no longer than any other route can be considered less "direct" by any definition, especially not in this case where it would be more direct if platforms still existed at Carnforth on the WCML side. Heading away from your destination at any point is totally irrelevant; there is no rule against it, and there is no evidence to suggest that any booking engines have longitude and latitude data to figure that out, and even if they could figure it out it would be utterly pointless as nowhere in the NCoC or RG does it say you cannot head away from your ultimate destination and turn back. What does matter is the mileage.
I suspect (although I don't know for sure having never had to sell one) that Journey Planner would match my interpretation as well.
I don't believe so. Journey planners have no way to know that you are heading initially away from your destination. If they could detect it and stopped selling tickets as a result then many journeys would become impossible.
In which case I would leave it up to the customer to have the inevitable arguments with the Northern/TPE/Virgin guards on the trains
The arguments may be inevitable but there's only one winner here.
The ticket appears to allow either via Leeds or 'directly' to York. So again could be better labelled, as perhaps just route YORK?
This makes no sense. How can it either be via Leeds or direct? Leeds IS the most direct route, at 31 miles. Harrogate is out of the way. Why is it that you randomly decide Carnforth is out of the way for Ulverston to Carlisle (despite being the shortest route if platforms existed), yet quite oppositely decide that Leeds is out of the way for a ticket from Horsforth to York and that Harrogate isn't out of the way, when clearly Harrogate is out of the way? That makes no sense at all. You are looking at maps and randomly deciding one should be valid and the other should be valid? That's not how any of the rules work, and it's not how booking engines work.
The difference with the above example though being that Horsforth appears to be part of Leeds, whereas Ulverston is most certainly not part of Lancaster.
What relevance does the geographical location of Horsforth in relation to a random station have?
However I quite accept that we should get rid of route DIRECT and replace with something clearer/less open to debate.
It should be got rid of, or defined. But in the absense of that, it can only mean the most direct routes and direct trains. What I am unsure of, is whether it is literally the most direct route only or if the "within 3 miles" rule is included.
 

janb

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I don't believe so. Journey planners have no way to know that you are heading initially away from your destination. If they could detect it and stopped selling tickets as a result then many journeys would become impossible.

I meant Journey Planner as in the RJIS replacement, used by booking offices such as Ulverston. I was just intrigued as to how that had been set up with regards to this ticket.

This makes no sense. How can it either be via Leeds or direct? Leeds IS the most direct route, at 31 miles. Harrogate is out of the way.

I meant 'directly' in the sense of not changing trains, see how confusing it is.
 

yorkie

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I meant Journey Planner as in the RJIS replacement, used by booking offices such as Ulverston. I was just intrigued as to how that had been set up with regards to this ticket.
How confusing. The replacement for RJIS is just called Journey Planner, a generic name which could mean anything? It's almost as if the railways want to cause confusion.

I doubt the Journey Planner is specifically set up for this, or any other, ticket, and I suspect it applies "Route Direct" according to a set of rules.

Anyway the problem with any journey planner is that they are all interpretations of the routeing guide. A computer will need to be told what "direct" means, and I would be very surprised if it wasn't capable of calculating the shortest mileage route and allowing it, and equally surprised if it didn't allow direct trains, however if the person programming it has put in a surprising set of parameters then it would likely result in the software acting strangely. The "within 3 miles of the shortest route" rule is perhaps not so well known, so some journey planners may not include it. Also, the mileages of the routes are equal in the NRT, which we are supposed to use, but it is possible that the programmers inputted mileage data from Quail or similar, which could lead to one route being a couple of chains longer than the other, and if it doesn't apply the "within 3 miles" rule, well...


I meant 'directly' in the sense of not changing trains, see how confusing it is.
Yes, I agree.

Perhaps the main reason I don't see "direct" as not requiring a change of trains, is that I am aware of so many "Route direct" tickets that require a change of trains, York to Whitby is another example, but there are many of them. So the possibility that they mean "direct trains" simply does not apply, therefore I think of it as the shortest route, but I believe that direct trains must, by definition, be equally valid, where they exist.
 

ashworth

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I notice that this £15.50 Anytime Day Return, via both Barrow or Lancaster, is only available from Ulveston and Dalton in Furness. It is not available from stations in Lancaster direction like Cark and Grange Over Sands or from Roose near Barrow.
As already pointed out this ticket is only vailable online from London Midland, Southern, East Coast etc and is not available via Lancaster through Trainline operated sites.
 

yorkie

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I notice that this £15.50 Anytime Day Return, via both Barrow or Lancaster, is only available from Ulveston and Dalton in Furness. It is not available from stations in Lancaster direction like Cark and Grange Over Sands or from Roose near Barrow.
As already pointed out this ticket is only vailable online from London Midland, Southern, East Coast etc and is not available via Lancaster through Trainline operated sites.
Ticketing is often illogical. For example, York to Whitby CDR is £11.50 (Not Darlington), yet Thirsk to Whitby CDR is £19.40. Thirsk is on the way from York to Whitby. Even from Thornaby (where clearly no option exists to go via Darlington!) there is no fare lower than £14.00 to Whitby.

Leeds to York is £10.50 CDR, £13.30 SDR. Yet Horsforth to York costs 40p more for the CDR, and £1.10 less for the SDR. Anyone going from Leeds to York at peak time can simply buy a ticket from Horsforth and save £1.10 and start their journey "short". Anyone going off-peak from Horsforth to York can save 40p by buying from Leeds and starting "short", travelling the long way round on a direct train via Harrogate.

Pontefract to Micklefield is £3.20 CDR, £5.55 SDR. The shortest route is via Church Fenton, yet Pontefract to Church Fenton has no return fare lower than £5.70 SDR. Even Micklefield to Church Fenton is undercut with the lowest fare being £4.40 SDR (no CDR).

Does this mean that York to Whitby is not intended via Thirsk (impossible!), and that at peak time you are expected to go from Horsforth to York via Harrogate, yet off peak you are expected to go via Leeds? I don't think so, but regardless it doesn't matter what is intended anwyay, as intent doesn't determine validity.
 

OwlMan

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The Ulverston - Barrow "Route Direct" ticket is NOT valid via Lancaster.

See National Routeing Guide Easements section -

040009 Customers travelling from Ulverston to Carlisle using tickets routed DIRECT may not travel via Carnforth. This easement applies in both directions.

Peter
 
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ashworth

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To come back to my original posting.......

I agree that it is probably NOT valid via Lancaster but it IS available to purchase online from some websites complete with reserved seats between Lancaster and Carlisle.

A similar situation exists with a number of tickets that are perhaps not valid but are available to purchase online via some websites but not others. If ever I want to make a day return trip from Nottingham to Liverpool I buy a Day Return from Nottingham to Prestatyn, which on some websites (but not others) is available via Liverpool with reserved seats. This costs me £22 instead of the £45 fare for a return from Nottingham to Liverpool.
 
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yorkie

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the fact that a negative easement exists suggests it would otherwise be valid, also a negative easement is an oxymoron and should be abolished.

but why call it direct then disallow it? why not re-name it Route Barrow? there is no excuse for this madness!
 

tony_mac

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I think you will find that laziness and incompetence are both possible 'excuses'!

Expecting customers to look through a list of 334 'easements' to check the validity of every route is, I agree, complete madness.

at least it's up to date...
Routeing via Carlisle for Edinburgh (and north/west thereof) to Newcastle (and
south thereof).This easment is to allow for engineering works at weekends up
until and inclusive of 09/10/2005.
and reasonable...
Customers travelling from Saltburn to York may not travel via Darlington. This
easement applies in both directions.
(why is the any permitted fare double that of 'not Darlington' if travel via Darlington is not allowed ?)
and necessary...
Customers travelling from Chathill to Durham may not travel via Darlington.
This easement applies in both directions.
and understandable..
This easement allows Scotrail Sleeper services to teminate at Watford Junction.
or
WO 4258 Error 16 journey around Barry and Bridgend via Cardiff. For fares
route Any Permitted
or
Origin Vauxhall routed not London
 
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cuccir

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Not sure if this helps in this case, but as a passenger I know that it is possible (or at least has been at some point within the last couple of years) to buy different fares when travelling to or from Barrow via Carlisle, based on whether you go down via Lancaster or via Whitehaven. The via Whitehaven ticket is cheaper. If there are two separate prices being shown, I'd think the 'direct' ticket is intended for the Cumbria Coast Line. I've got a feeling that the ticket machines at Barrow station explicitly say 'via Cumbrian Coast' or 'via Lancaster', though this is based on travel a few years ago.

Oh, and on a related note: Ulverston - Lancaster - Carlisle will almost definitely be a much faster journey!
 

cuccir

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Hello, just getting into this rail thing and looking through the routeing guide for the first time and found this in the easements section

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/easements.pdf

"Customers travelling from Ulverston to Carlisle using tickets routed DIRECT
may not travel via Carnforth. This easement applies in both directions."

Oh yes, I see someone has posted this above, sorry!
 

janb

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Saw a Northern retail brief today for January. This route DIRECT fare will become a route SELLAFIELD fare.
 
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