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Ultra thin wire ?

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Justin Smith

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Does anyone know where I can buy ultra thin / flexible wire ? Just a few metres. I have tried buying on E Bay and end up with stuff that's too thick !
It's for wiring up extra current collection connections on a loco / DMU, so must be thin and flexible.
 
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Justin Smith

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Would fuse wire be any good?
Not really, it has to be insulated. Might do for some jobs though, does fuse wire flex (repeatedly) OK though ?

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How thin ? Preferably in mm, but any reasonable unit would help.
Good question.
I already have wire 1.2mm in diameter (incl the insulation) but it needs to be significantly thinner than that.
The first job I want it for is to try something I read on A N Other forum, soldering on wires from the pick ups on a Farish / Grafar Class 101 DMU to the chassis because the wiper connectors do not really work that well, despite being replaced. TBH they are a poor idea.
 
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Trackman

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I'd give CPC of Preston a call, just google them. They have been going for decades, I use them for electronic bit and bats. They are huge.
 

John Webb

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I already have wire 1.2mm in diameter (incl the insulation) but it needs to be significantly thinner than that......
I assume that's 7/0.2mm insulated wire - often referred to as 1 or 1.4A capacity. CPC do 10/0.1mm equipment wire which is 0.86mm diameter - but only in 100m to 500m lengths. (See this link for an example)

A better bet may be to get a short length of small multi-core cable - this is can be made from 7/0.1mm cores and might well do you? There are a number of suppliers who advertise in the model railway press.
 

Ediswan

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A better bet may be to get a short length of small multi-core cable - this is can be made from 7/0.1mm cores and might well do you?
Picking up on that, I recall being asked to repair an iPod earpiece cable that a careless gardener had cut while pruning. That was very thin stranded/flexible wire. You may have what you need in the 'assorted cables' box.
 

AM9

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A handy source of quite thin insulated stranded wire is an old USB mouse. Just cut the cable and strip back the outer to reveal the separate wires, - usually available in red, black green and white.
 

Justin Smith

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A handy source of quite thin insulated stranded wire is an old USB mouse. Just cut the cable and strip back the outer to reveal the separate wires, - usually available in red, black green and white.
Excellent idea.
I have stripped out a bit of cable. Some wires are 0.8mm and some even 0.7. The thing is it's not just how thin it is though, it's also how flexible as one does not want the bogie to be restricted in its movement.
I do wonder if stripping out individual strands of wire and using them, where they do not have to be insulted, might work better ?
 
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AM9

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Excellent idea.
I have stripped out a bit of cable. Some wires are 0.8mm and some even 0.7. The thing is it's not just how thin it is though, it's also how flexible as one does not want the bogie to be restricted in its movement.
I do wonder if stripping out individual strands of wire and using them, where they do not have to be insulted, might work better ?
Using the thinnes wire to hand, it's easy to put suitable loops in the wire to take up the bogie rotation. Maybe the wire will be more co-operative if you don't insult it. ;)
 

Justin Smith

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Using the thinnest wire to hand, it's easy to put suitable loops in the wire to take up the bogie rotation. Maybe the wire will be more co-operative if you don't insult it. ;)
It might need insulting to avoid upsetting an adjacent polarity ? You know how easy all the polarities are upset these days......

Putting a loop in the wire is a good idea and probably possible for, say, a link from a ("pick upped") tender to the loco, but I am unsure if there would be room between the bogie and chassis of a Farish N gauge DMU ?
 

AM9

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It might need insulting to avoid upsetting an adjacent polarity ? You know how easy all the polarities are upset these days......

Putting a loop in the wire is a good idea and probably possible for, say, a link from a ("pick upped") tender to the loco, but I am unsure if there would be room between the bogie and chassis of a Farish N gauge DMU ?
Ah, I was assuming 4mm/foot, I didn't realise that it was N gauge. The next level down is litz wire, the type that is used on gramaphone pick-up arms, but that is many strands of very fine bare copper wire, each enamel coated for insulation and then loosely twisted together without an overall cover. It is difficult to solder, (the enamel must be removed with a fine abrasive such as flour paper) and in your case with a metal bogie frame or it's mounting might eventually remove the coating by abrasion, oh and it is quite expensive - as you might expect with high end audio, (suffers from the "if it isn't expensive, it can't be any good")!
 

John Webb

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....... The next level down is litz wire, the type that is used on gramaphone pick-up arms, but that is many strands of very fine bare copper wire, each enamel coated for insulation and then loosely twisted together without an overall cover. It is difficult to solder, (the enamel must be removed with a fine abrasive such as flour paper).....
Interesting re Litz wire - used this for medium radio-frequency inductors when working at Plessy's nearly 60 years ago. We used the flour paper to remove the woven cotton covering. Soldering was easy - the wires' enamel covering was designed as a self-fluxing compound and you simply dipped the end of the bunch of wires in a molten solder pot and they were joined together!
 

Justin Smith

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Two points :
1 - is it as flexible as one would expect ?
2 - can someone buy some and sell it to me (and others) by the metre ? ! ?

Actually, now I know what to search for on E Bay, is this the same sort of stuff (£2.41 for 2m incl P&P) ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122822486575
 

Justin Smith

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The Farnell and RS options are (as described above) single strand 1/30 AWG. The ebay options states multi-strand 7/38 AWG. That may suit you better, more flexible.

At worst, can you afford to lose £2.41 ?
I'm not sure it is multi strand E, teh advert it seems contradictory. The picture is of multi strand but the description says "No. of Cores: 1".
I agree with you that multicore would be better but can you get multicore at a diameter that small ?
I will order some to see and report back.
 

AM9

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I'm not sure it is multi strand E, teh advert it seems contradictory. The picture is of multi strand but the description says "No. of Cores: 1".
I agree with you that multicore would be better but can you get multicore at a diameter that small ?
I will order some to see and report back.
I doubt that any single core wire that has a low enough resistance to carry the current to drive even an N gauge train will have sufficient flexibility to suit your application. Just what is the clearance between the underside of the body and the bolsters on the bogie?
 

Grumpy Git

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I'm not sure it is multi strand E, teh advert it seems contradictory. The picture is of multi strand but the description says "No. of Cores: 1".
I agree with you that multicore would be better but can you get multicore at a diameter that small ?
I will order some to see and report back.

According to the description, the Ebay stuff you list is indeed multi-stranded (i.e. 7x strands of 38 AWG wire). So this is the equivalent CSA (cross-sectional area of the stuff I posted at 0.05mm²), but will be better suited to your application requiring flexibility.

Maximum current is approx. 400 milliamps (0.4 amps).
 

Ediswan

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I'm not sure it is multi strand E, teh advert it seems contradictory. The picture is of multi strand but the description says "No. of Cores: 1".
'Cores' is the number of seperate conductors. For example, standard mains cable is three core, live neutral and earth (other combinations do exist).
 

Justin Smith

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'Cores' is the number of seperate conductors. For example, standard mains cable is three core, live neutral and earth (other combinations do exist).
That explains it ? ! ?

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I doubt that any single core wire that has a low enough resistance to carry the current to drive even an N gauge train will have sufficient flexibility to suit your application. Just what is the clearance between the underside of the body and the bolsters on the bogie?
Not much, and I'd like to put a loop in it. Plus there's the body shell getting in the way too !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm not sure it is multi strand E, teh advert it seems contradictory. The picture is of multi strand but the description says "No. of Cores: 1".
I agree with you that multicore would be better but can you get multicore at a diameter that small ?
I will order some to see and report back.
Well it came this morning.
Bad news I am afraid, I did not read teh E Bay listing carefully enough, this bit :

Cable Diameter: 1.117mm

I already have cable that size. Buying it was complete waste of money.

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I doubt that any single core wire that has a low enough resistance to carry the current to drive even an N gauge train will have sufficient flexibility to suit your application. Just what is the clearance between the underside of the body and the bolsters on the bogie?
How came the motor can drive off a poorly contacting copper "wiper" (from the bogie onto the chassis) with a contact area of a fraction of a square mm ?

farish-class-101-dmu-bogie-posintion-of-current-collection-wipers-800w-l10-jpg.121556
 
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AM9

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That explains it ? ! ?

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Not much, and I'd like to put a loop in it. Plus there's the body shell getting in the way too !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Well it came this morning.
Bad news I am afraid, I did not read teh E Bay listing carefully enough, this bit :

Cable Diameter: 1.117mm

I already have cable that size. Buying it was complete waste of money.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


How came the motor can drive off a poorly contacting copper "wiper" (from the bogie onto the chassis) with a contact area of a fraction of a square mm ?

farish-class-101-dmu-bogie-posintion-of-current-collection-wipers-800w-l10-jpg.121556
Not sure about your measurements. If that picture is of an N gauge bogie where the back to back measurement would be at least 7.5mm, so that would make the gap between the parallel lines more like 1mm. The width of the strips would be about 2mm and their thickness probably around 0.15mm, making it's cross sectional area (CSA), about 0.3mm^2 and it's linear resistance about 0.0345mm/metre. So with a contact area of around the same as it's CSA, the resistance would be negligible, meaning that there would be negligible voltage drop for a current of 400mA. (All that assumes clean contact surfaces, - probably the biggest issue with model railway power connections. That would dictate as heavy a downforce on power collecting wheels that you can sustain.
 
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Justin Smith

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Not sure about your measurements. If that picture is of an N gauge bogie where the back to back measurement would be at least 7.5mm, so that would make the gap between the parallel lines more like 1mm. The width of the strips would be about 2mm and their thickness probably around 0.15mm, making it's cross sectional area (CSA), about 0.3mm^2 and it's linear resistance about 0.0345mm/metre. So with a contact area of around the same as it's CSA, the resistance would be negligible, meaning that there would be negligible voltage drop for a current of 400mA. (All that assumes clean contact surfaces, - probably the biggest issue with model railway power connections. That would dictate as heavy a downforce on power collecting wheels that you can sustain.
But that's if the wiper is perfectly parallel to the chassis and I doubt very much it would be.
 

AM9

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But that's if the wiper is perfectly parallel to the chassis and I doubt very much it would be.
Correcting my last post, - to make sense it should have read: "and it's linear resistance about 0.0345ohm/metre" so it's resistance would be very small and unlikely in itself* to limit the available current even if only 1% of it's facing surface was actually in contact.
* hence my statement above that cleanliness of contact surfaces is the major factor. Indeed, for a given force causing the electrical contact, spreading that force over a larger area is less likely to break through any surface contamination.
 
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