UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Peter Sarf]

I don't pop out to buy premium coffee drinks, so should I skip visiting petrol stations as "Wild Bean Cafe"? Similarly, should I not bother stopping at Leigh Delamere on my way to South Wales as I don't want to buy a drink, have a burger and buy over-priced tat from the WHSmith equivalent?

The point is more that we are now seeing Motorway Service Area sized locations with 50+ charging bays with facilities for those who wish to make use of them - you can simply charge if you like, but if you want to take a break, then the toilet and a drink will be available should you so wish.

I'm not about to drive to this particular site to charge up as it is an hour from me, but if it was en-route, then I could stop and not worry about whether or not I'm likely to find a working charger.

I can understand the convenience of home charging, but is it really a necessity for all? For instance, going back to the supermarket chargers, you can park up, plug your car in, do your shopping, come back and go home. You don't then need to drive round to the petrol station to fill up either before or after you've done your shopping, so a few minutes saved here & there even without home charging.

Yes. The point I was making is that charging stations that only have things like Satarbucks are not going to help me kill time and I suspect that is true for many late adopters who do not want to waste money on such luxuries.

For motorway service stations I was brought up in the 1970s to park, use the loo, perhaps eat a sandwich made at home and never fuel up at them. So not enough time to charge the battery much I suspect.

For supermarkets there is more chance I will be there long enough to make charging worth while. But I often walk to the Morrisons near me !. If I drive it is when I fill the tank up with fossil fuel so not done often !.
Leads to the question how much do I use a car and is it enough to make getting an EV worthwhile.
I would love to be able to charge at home as then I am immune to time considerations, its even cheaper and I could possibly charge an older battery gently.

 

[Mawkie]

For me a second hand EV will need to have a good battery life left. I would prefer a slower home charge just to be gentle on the battery for all the years I will keep it.

We do need to challenge this myth every single time it rears it's ugly head - even after 6000+ posts....

Apart from the very early Nissan Leafs, EVs have sophisticated heating and cooling systems that operate via a Battery Management System (BMS) to manage the battery. Batteries are virtually all guaranteed for 8 years and at least 100k miles. After that, their decline is known and managed, there isn't a cliff edge.

After all these years, we have the data to support the fact that batteries are not the weak point of electric vehicles.

Someone looking at a decade old EV should be worrying more whether the manufacturer still supports the software - but that's not unique to EVs as all cars are now computers on wheels.

 

[AM9]

Aside from those living in city centre locations, and those in many rented flats/houses where there is no practical means of home charging, the possibility of home charging is to a degree within the choice of the house purchaser. Having an off-street parking place that can be provided with a charging point is an additional cost on the house (and that extra cost will rise as more people seek such properties), so to a degree, the lower cost of 'fuel' for an EV that provides some recompense for the additional purchase cost of the property and the installation of a charger.

 

[SargeNpton]

Aside from those living in city centre locations, and those in many rented flats/houses where there is no practical means of home charging, the possibility of home charging is to a degree within the choice of the house purchaser.

That assumes that the house purchaser has the means to buy a house where off-street home charging is feasible.

Much as I would like the archetypal suburban semi-detached with a garage, my budget is limited to a Victorian terrace. That's not a choice but the practical reality, shared by hundreds of thousands (if not millions) around the UK.

 

[johncrossley]

There will be no financial benefit in buying a house with home charging as it will cost so much you might as well get a house without home charging and pay to charge elsewhere.

 

[marshlinker]

I did spot a few public 11 and 22kW chargers down your neck of the woods, but I was wondering why 'granny charging' won't work for you? A 3kW charge will add about 10 miles an hour on average - or 60 a day.

Surely your supply isn't that borderline that the equivalent of a small fan heater sends you over the edge? Perhaps you are a very niche case?

Ive had a few company pool EVs and a couple of hire EVs and that's how Ive topped up at home before a long journey but the reality is that no granny charger I've come across can add the range you suggest. All the Granny chargers Ive seen charge at a maximum of 10A so 2.3 KW at the plug. Once you've added in the phase shift and the losses at the car battery that's around1.5 to 1.8 KW generally around 6-7 miles per hour. To recharge a 50 Kwh battery takes a day. That's not practical for my useage.

 

[Mawkie]

That assumes that the house purchaser has the means to buy a house where off-street home charging is feasible.

Much as I would like the archetypal suburban semi-detached with a garage, my budget is limited to a Victorian terrace. That's not a choice but the practical reality, shared by hundreds of thousands (if not millions) around the UK.

This is quite right.

It's a reality for a lot of people that home charging isn't an option, and for millions, will never be an option. It's basically the reason I chose a Tesla - the Supercharger network is just so impressive.

I saw BYD are installing Flash Charging stations in the UK, that are offering incredible charging speeds on their cars. If they price that at "around 50p a kWh" as they suggested, then it may be a winner for them and customers alike.

It will just have to be that choosing the correct vehicle for someone's use case will include investigating public charging networks and pricing.

I'm not too sure about other manufacturers, but do any still offer "1000 miles" of free public charging or other incentives? It seems obvious to me that charge point operators should link up with manufacturers (much the same as Renault used to recommend Mobil for example).

Once you've added in the phase shift and the losses at the car battery that's around1.5 to 1.8 KW generally around 6-7 miles per hour. To recharge a 50 Kwh battery takes a day. That's not practical for my useage.

You didn't say what your usage was, but I presumed when you mentioned a lack of local chargers you didn't do high mileages. If you do more than 50 miles a day, then don't you pass at least a few fast chargers?

 

[Snow1964]

For motorway service stations I was brought up in the 1970s to park, use the loo, perhaps eat a sandwich made at home and never fuel up at them. So not enough time to charge the battery much I suspect.

My car is a 2022 model and if although most motorway chargers are 150+Kw, car won't really charge any faster than about 74kw. But a stop of say 10 minutes to visit the loo, adds around 50 miles, if I have a snack and stopped around 25 minutes, will get about extra 120 miles. Newer versions accept charge faster so will get 60-80 miles extra in 10 minute loo stop.

For supermarkets there is more chance I will be there long enough to make charging worth while.

If just drive locally, battery is cold, and will only charge at about 28kw for few minutes before gradually increasing over next 5-10 minutes to 60-70kw. The battery management limits charge rate when battery is cold. Trying to do rapid top up with cold car doesn't really work unless stopping for at least half hour, or just need few extra miles to get home.

 

[AM9]

That assumes that the house purchaser has the means to buy a house where off-street home charging is feasible.

Much as I would like the archetypal suburban semi-detached with a garage, my budget is limited to a Victorian terrace. That's not a choice but the practical reality, shared by hundreds of thousands (if not millions) around the UK.

Few people have enough wealth to never need to consider their ability to afford specific* things. 'Things' include everything from basics like clothes, foods, holidays, dwelling and of course personal transport arrangements.
For instance, for my first house, properties in or around Ilford where I grew up were unaffordable, I had to look further and further into Essex to actually find something that I could actually secure a mortgage for. I couldn't afford a car, so I ended up committed to fares from Chelmsford to Ilford 6days per week. I didn't even start learning to drive until I was living in my fourth house in Cosham, Hampshire. Life is driven by value judgements, that compromise ambition, something that everybody should recognise

* By specific, I mean particular choices that may not be affordable.

 

[Bald Rick]

It means the relative prices quoted on here of new or nearly new ICE vs EV just make my eyes glaze over.

Not singling you out here, but I think people forget how the value of money changes over time.

I bought my first car when I was still at school, having saved by working a part time job and a long summer holiday job specifically for that purpose. It cost the equivalent of almost £7k now, allowing for RPI. It was by no means the cheapest car amongst my friends, most of whom had similarly worked part time jobs (albeit a couple had ‘help’.)

There’s plenty of EVs out there available for under £7k, and that is from the limited selecton of EVs for sale 5-10 years ago (mostly Leafs, i3s, Zoes, high mileage MGs, and a small variety of other models. Within a year or so many more models will be in that range.

Whilst I realise that not many people will agree with me, if it’s possible for a sixth former to buy the equivalent of an EV off their own back, it’s basically in range for anyone with some application.

 

[Peter Sarf]

We do need to challenge this myth every single time it rears it's ugly head - even after 6000+ posts....

Apart from the very early Nissan Leafs, EVs have sophisticated heating and cooling systems that operate via a Battery Management System (BMS) to manage the battery. Batteries are virtually all guaranteed for 8 years and at least 100k miles. After that, their decline is known and managed, there isn't a cliff edge.

After all these years, we have the data to support the fact that batteries are not the weak point of electric vehicles.

Someone looking at a decade old EV should be worrying more whether the manufacturer still supports the software - but that's not unique to EVs as all cars are now computers on wheels.

I am not suggesting EV battery life falls of a cliff edge (like it did with the early EVs). But I do suspect their range reduces over ten to twenty years at least to some extent. I assume that even with good battery management a gentler charge and avoiding totally empty and totally full does help extend the battery life. Over twenty years that might be a reasonably good difference between an EV battery that had a hard life and an EV battery that had a gentler life. The older the EV is the more that will show up.

Software is the other problem - enough to make me search out another Vauxhall Carlton or an even older ICE car !.

Not singling you out here, but I think people forget how the value of money changes over time.

I bought my first car when I was still at school, having saved by working a part time job and a long summer holiday job specifically for that purpose. It cost the equivalent of almost £7k now, allowing for RPI. It was by no means the cheapest car amongst my friends, most of whom had similarly worked part time jobs (albeit a couple had ‘help’.)

There’s plenty of EVs out there available for under £7k, and that is from the limited selecton of EVs for sale 5-10 years ago (mostly Leafs, i3s, Zoes, high mileage MGs, and a small variety of other models. Within a year or so many more models will be in that range.

Whilst I realise that not many people will agree with me, if it’s possible for a sixth former to buy the equivalent of an EV off their own back, it’s basically in range for anyone with some application.

I agree, there has to be some ambition required. My first job (while studying for my A'Levels) allowed me to improve my rate of saving. I was careful not to spend my earnings (much). Years later that savings habit led me to get a house (Victorian Terraced and convenient for London - Croydon). I wish I had aimed further out and got a house with a big enough front garden for a drive !. Bought two cars before but very cheaply. First very cheap died of tin worm after a couple of years, second was stolen and written off not long after I got it. I will have to figure out what they cost in todays money but it certainly feels like a lot less than I would need now.

Assuming my latest ICE dropped dead (more likely stolen) I would be aiming to spend about £2k on a replacement car currently.

 

[rangersac]

Apart from the very early Nissan Leafs, EVs have sophisticated heating and cooling systems that operate via a Battery Management System (BMS) to manage the battery. Batteries are virtually all guaranteed for 8 years and at least 100k miles. After that, their decline is known and managed, there isn't a cliff edge.

To be clear it's all Gen1 and Gen2 shaped Nissan Leafs that do not have thermal battery management, which covers a period from 2012 - 2025 so not just the very early ones. They made improvements to the battery chemistry over this period which reduced the effects of thermal stress to some extent, but if anyone is in the market for a second hand Leaf it's critical to check the number of DC fast chargers the car has had, and conduct a battery stress test (high load for an extended period at low state of charge) to determine cell voltage differences. This all sounds complicated, but it's actually very easy to do with the Leafspy app and an OBD2 adaptor, and there's stacks of Youtube videos on how to do this.

Nissan also produced the e-NV200 van which used the same non thermally regulated battery and drivetrain as the Leaf. It's only the latest Gen 3 version of the Leaf that has thermal battery management.

 

[Peter Sarf]

To be clear it's all Gen1 and Gen2 shaped Nissan Leafs that do not have thermal battery management, which covers a period from 2012 - 2025 so not just the very early ones. They made improvements to the battery chemistry over this period which reduced the effects of thermal stress to some extent, but if anyone is in the market for a second hand Leaf it's critical to check the number of DC fast chargers the car has had, and conduct a battery stress test (high load for an extended period at low state of charge) to determine cell voltage differences. This all sounds complicated, but it's actually very easy to do with the Leafspy app and an OBD2 adaptor, and there's stacks of Youtube videos on how to do this.

Nissan also produced the e-NV200 van which used the same non thermally regulated battery and drivetrain as the Leaf. It's only the latest Gen 3 version of the Leaf that has thermal battery management.

Thats interesting. So a Gen1 or Gen2 Leaf owned by an old granny and barely used might be a bargain buy !. Then it is a matter of sticking to gentle charging - I assume upgrading the thermal management on an old EV is impractical ?.

 

[The Ham]

Yes. The point I was making is that charging stations that only have things like Satarbucks are not going to help me kill time and I suspect that is true for many late adopters who do not want to waste money on such luxuries.

For motorway service stations I was brought up in the 1970s to park, use the loo, perhaps eat a sandwich made at home and never fuel up at them. So not enough time to charge the battery much I suspect.

For supermarkets there is more chance I will be there long enough to make charging worth while. But I often walk to the Morrisons near me !. If I drive it is when I fill the tank up with fossil fuel so not done often !.
Leads to the question how much do I use a car and is it enough to make getting an EV worthwhile.
I would love to be able to charge at home as then I am immune to time considerations, its even cheaper and I could possibly charge an older battery gently.

The thing is even a 10 minute break can be enough to make the difference between getting to your destination or not.

Our car is rated for 190 miles, in reality that's about 120 miles between changes (so not going below 20% in case we need to get a bit further to find another charger) adding 30 miles would mean that could do a 155 mile trip (as we can eat into the 20% reserve as its the case that we're returning home or to a location with a known charging point (for example a friend/family members home or other private charging location).

Ive had a few company pool EVs and a couple of hire EVs and that's how Ive topped up at home before a long journey but the reality is that no granny charger I've come across can add the range you suggest. All the Granny chargers Ive seen charge at a maximum of 10A so 2.3 KW at the plug. Once you've added in the phase shift and the losses at the car battery that's around1.5 to 1.8 KW generally around 6-7 miles per hour. To recharge a 50 Kwh battery takes a day. That's not practical for my useage.

Overnight is typically 10 to 14 hours, so a change of 60 to 84 miles (11 hours would be arriving home 20:00 after 2 hour commute before leaving at 07:00 for a 2 hour commute to start at 09:00).

Even if that's just 3 days a week, that's an annual milage of 13,000 which is quite high.

Anyway, even if someone was doing 100 miles a day (20,000 miles a year just on the working days of the year), that could mean needing a 40 miles of top up each day (or 80 miles every other day), either way 10-15 minutes at a rapid charger.

Although, for the first day or two of the working week that could be covered by the extra time the car could change at the weekend.

For example, for a car with a reliable 150 miles of range down to 15% charge:
Monday start 150, end of day 50
10 hour overnight charge adds 60 miles
Tuesday start 110, end of day 10
Rapid change Tuesday evening to add 80 miles then a further 60 miles overnight
Wednesday start 150, end of day 50
10 hour overnight charge adds 60 miles
Thursday start 110, end of day 10
Rapid change Thursday evening to add 40 miles then a further 60 miles overnight
Friday start 110, end of day 10
12 hours overnight charge adds 72 miles
Saturday start 72, end day 12
4 hours of charge during the day plus 12 hours over night adds 96 miles
Sunday starts 108, ends day 48
5 hours of charge during the day plus 12 hours over night adds 102 miles
Monday starts 150

Although, that's for someone doing 30,000 miles a year. Such milage is unusual and so very much an edge case.

First up 7kW wall boxes can be capped to deliver a maximum change rate, however it does appear that it's possible to create a 16amp (3.5kW) system using a custom external wall socket (looks like a caravan hook up) and specialist cable:

Voldt® Portable EV charger commando plug | 1 phase | 8A - 16A | 3.7kW + APP

Charge your EV or PHEV anywhere in Europe on a blue 16A commando outlet! ✔Adjustable 8A - 16A ✔IP67 protection class ✔Smart control via APP

voldt.co.uk

That's likely to exceed 8 miles per hour of charge, however, even at 8 miles that's 96 miles of overnight charge.

That means a 4 mile deficit per night, or 20 miles for the week, meaning Friday ends on 30 miles (using the same variables as before) with no need to charge using a rapid charger.

Although if the charge is 8.6 miles per hour of charging that's adding 103 miles each day and so the distance driven can be higher still, or the time available to change be lower (below 11 hours) before needing to use rapid chargers during the week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing is even a 10 minute break can be enough to make the difference between getting to your destination or not.

Plan better. Traffic can even do that on a short journey.

 

[Mawkie]

I am not suggesting EV battery life falls of a cliff edge (like it did with the early EVs). But I do suspect their range reduces over ten to twenty years at least to some extent. I assume that even with good battery management a gentler charge and avoiding totally empty and totally full does help extend the battery life. Over twenty years that might be a reasonably good difference between an EV battery that had a hard life and an EV battery that had a gentler life. The older the EV is the more that will show up.

You might find this brief report from Which? helpful. Of course there is degradation, as there is with an ICE car, but it's easier to get information about that degradation than in an ICE car by using one of the various diagnostic tools mentioned earlier, or some cars have in-built diagnostics.

For EVs up to two years old, the average range was 97% of the original figure; 66% of owners in this age group reported no drop in range.

Cars aged three to six years old had 95% on average of their original range. This dropped to 94% for cars between seven and eight years old; for an EV with a 250-mile range when new in 2018, this would leave you with a 235-mile range today.

So from the Which? survey of 4000 owners, the average loss on a car with an advertised 250 miles range over 8 years was....... 15 miles. These are averages, so there will be the extremes too - the early failures that the press like to publish - and the batteries that still maintain impressive ranges long into their lives with little degradation.

I suspect ICE engines lose power and do fewer miles per gallon as they age too, perhaps to a worse extent than EVs?

 

[rangersac]

Thats interesting. So a Gen1 or Gen2 Leaf owned by an old granny and barely used might be a bargain buy !. Then it is a matter of sticking to gentle charging - I assume upgrading the thermal management on an old EV is impractical ?.

Adding thermal management is indeed impractical as it would require retrofitting an entire coolant network system, radiator and pumps.

I have owned both a Gen1 and a Gen2 Leaf, both bought second hand. As long as you do your due diligence on the battery condition, and are aware of their limitations in terms of range (early versions in particular were very short distance cars) and fast charging issues (they really aren't suitable long road trip cars as multiple DC fast charging overheats the battery) they can indeed be a bargain buy. And from a second hand standpoint there are a lot of them out there so parts are readily available, with the LeafSpy app you can self diagnose most issues, and they require virtually no servicing beyond standard consumables.

There's also a well established ecosystem of battery replacements and upgrades for them, and if you are someone who doesn't like the modern EV fads of touchscreens controlling everything, and the car constantly reporting your data back to nations with questionable human rights records they are refreshing old school in the physical button, non connectivity department.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....(early) Leaf.....fast charging issues (they really aren't suitable long road trip cars as multiple DC fast charging overheats the battery)....

and the availability of CHAdeMO outlets is not as widespread as what has pretty much become the defacto standard CCS. There may be adaptors available, though.

 

[gazthomas]

There will be no financial benefit in buying a house with home charging as it will cost so much you might as well get a house without home charging and pay to charge elsewhere.

I don't agree, I pay less than 7p per Kw/h to charge at home. Public chargers can cost five, ten even fifteen times that. The payback on the charger for me has been a couple of years

 

[Peter Sarf]

The thing is even a 10 minute break can be enough to make the difference between getting to your destination or not.

Our car is rated for 190 miles, in reality that's about 120 miles between changes (so not going below 20% in case we need to get a bit further to find another charger) adding 30 miles would mean that could do a 155 mile trip (as we can eat into the 20% reserve as its the case that we're returning home or to a location with a known charging point (for example a friend/family members home or other private charging location).




Overnight is typically 10 to 14 hours, so a change of 60 to 84 miles (11 hours would be arriving home 20:00 after 2 hour commute before leaving at 07:00 for a 2 hour commute to start at 09:00).

Even if that's just 3 days a week, that's an annual milage of 13,000 which is quite high.

Anyway, even if someone was doing 100 miles a day (20,000 miles a year just on the working days of the year), that could mean needing a 40 miles of top up each day (or 80 miles every other day), either way 10-15 minutes at a rapid charger.

Although, for the first day or two of the working week that could be covered by the extra time the car could change at the weekend.

For example, for a car with a reliable 150 miles of range down to 15% charge:
Monday start 150, end of day 50
10 hour overnight charge adds 60 miles
Tuesday start 110, end of day 10
Rapid change Tuesday evening to add 80 miles then a further 60 miles overnight
Wednesday start 150, end of day 50
10 hour overnight charge adds 60 miles
Thursday start 110, end of day 10
Rapid change Thursday evening to add 40 miles then a further 60 miles overnight
Friday start 110, end of day 10
12 hours overnight charge adds 72 miles
Saturday start 72, end day 12
4 hours of charge during the day plus 12 hours over night adds 96 miles
Sunday starts 108, ends day 48
5 hours of charge during the day plus 12 hours over night adds 102 miles
Monday starts 150

Although, that's for someone doing 30,000 miles a year. Such milage is unusual and so very much an edge case.

First up 7kW wall boxes can be capped to deliver a maximum change rate, however it does appear that it's possible to create a 16amp (3.5kW) system using a custom external wall socket (looks like a caravan hook up) and specialist cable:

Voldt® Portable EV charger commando plug | 1 phase | 8A - 16A | 3.7kW + APP

Charge your EV or PHEV anywhere in Europe on a blue 16A commando outlet! ✔Adjustable 8A - 16A ✔IP67 protection class ✔Smart control via APP

voldt.co.uk

That's likely to exceed 8 miles per hour of charge, however, even at 8 miles that's 96 miles of overnight charge.

That means a 4 mile deficit per night, or 20 miles for the week, meaning Friday ends on 30 miles (using the same variables as before) with no need to charge using a rapid charger.

Although if the charge is 8.6 miles per hour of charging that's adding 103 miles each day and so the distance driven can be higher still, or the time available to change be lower (below 11 hours) before needing to use rapid chargers during the week.

That is what I would like. Enough slow and cheap overnight charge to last the normal days use.

A thought occurred to me - I can see a standard household complaint being "who borrowed the car last night and forgot to put it on charge when they got home ?". No worse than forgetting to close the front door so not an EV shortfall but I could not resist sharing my mind !.

You might find this brief report from Which? helpful. Of course there is degradation, as there is with an ICE car, but it's easier to get information about that degradation than in an ICE car by using one of the various diagnostic tools mentioned earlier, or some cars have in-built diagnostics.


So from the Which? survey of 4000 owners, the average loss on a car with an advertised 250 miles range over 8 years was....... 15 miles. These are averages, so there will be the extremes too - the early failures that the press like to publish - and the batteries that still maintain impressive ranges long into their lives with little degradation.

I suspect ICE engines lose power and do fewer miles per gallon as they age too, perhaps to a worse extent than EVs?

I will have a look at that report in detail later. Which? tend to ignore older cars (older than 10 years) but I suspect they will make general indications on cars that are 20 years old but the averages will be spoilt be the oldest EV cars having rather poorer battery management. It is why I suspect I need two wait about ten years for older (15+ year old) cars without the early non battery management to show up well (or otherwise).

With ICE engines performance and fuel consumption I find are usually returned to peak by a proper service. A service on an EV does not require that engine service but just brakes, steering and suspension. Both types of car of course suffer if the tyre pressures are neglected !.

Adding thermal management is indeed impractical as it would require retrofitting an entire coolant network system, radiator and pumps.

I have owned both a Gen1 and a Gen2 Leaf, both bought second hand. As long as you do your due diligence on the battery condition, and are aware of their limitations in terms of range (early versions in particular were very short distance cars) and fast charging issues (they really aren't suitable long road trip cars as multiple DC fast charging overheats the battery) they can indeed be a bargain buy. And from a second hand standpoint there are a lot of them out there so parts are readily available, with the LeafSpy app you can self diagnose most issues, and they require virtually no servicing beyond standard consumables.

There's also a well established ecosystem of battery replacements and upgrades for them, and if you are someone who doesn't like the modern EV fads of touchscreens controlling everything, and the car constantly reporting your data back to nations with questionable human rights records they are refreshing old school in the physical button, non connectivity department.

Thanks. That is interesting. So early Leafs did not gain these touch screens that I find rather distracting to operate whilst driving.

Due diligence over battery condition is no different to worrying about how well an ICE engine as been looked after. Possibly with less parameters to worry about and likely the car "knows" how its battery feels.

 

[rangersac]

and the availability of CHAdeMO outlets is not as widespread as what has pretty much become the defacto standard CCS. There may be adaptors available, though.

There are indeed adaptors available now although they do cost a few bob.

Thanks. That is interesting. So early Leafs did not gain these touch screens that I find rather distracting to operate whilst driving.

They do have a touch screen on the centre console but all of the standard media, climate control and drivers aids all have physical buttons for operation.

 

[johncrossley]

I don't agree, I pay less than 7p per Kw/h to charge at home. Public chargers can cost five, ten even fifteen times that. The payback on the charger for me has been a couple of years

But the value of your house has gone up as a result of the ability to charge at home, cancelling out the cheaper electricity. So whoever buys your house won't benefit from the low cost of electricity. Alternatively, you could sell your house, get a cheaper house without ability to charge and the profit will balance out the cost of public chargers.

 

[jon0844]

Another small city car enters the scene - a (not quite because of UK specs) Japanese Kei car that's £19k and packed with features, as well as being very small for easy parking.

It's not a car for long-distance travel. It's quite quirky like other small cars, and some will hate it, but it is also funky enough that it could well gain quite a following.

One thing the car offers is fake gears and engine sounds with an artificial rev limiter. The video does say it isn't quite right, but could easily be fixed in software because that's all it is. A total gimmick? Yes.. but people do buy things for gimmicks.

Video: What Car? early review of the Honda Super-N EV.

 

[The Ham]

Plan better. Traffic can even do that on a short journey.

I may not have been clear, but I was taking in the context of a car which couldn't get somewhere because the range wasn't enough without a 10 minute change.

As I implied, whilst the car is rated for 190 miles, by the time you take off the 20% at the bottom the rated range is 152 miles, the reality can be closer to 120 miles. Adding 30 miles in 10 minutes (although the rated range added could be as much as 40m miles, again been realistic on the miles) means that a journey of 155 miles is possible.

A thought occurred to me - I can see a standard household complaint being "who borrowed the car last night and forgot to put it on charge when they got home ?". No worse than forgetting to close the front door so not an EV shortfall but I could not resist sharing my mind !.

A fair worry, although ibecomes second nature to plug in as you get home - although I would suggest a car which allows you to miss a charge and still have a fair range left.

 

[gazthomas]

But the value of your house has gone up as a result of the ability to charge at home, cancelling out the cheaper electricity. So whoever buys your house won't benefit from the low cost of electricity. Alternatively, you could sell your house, get a cheaper house without ability to charge and the profit will balance out the cost of public chargers.

But I'm not looking to sell my house

 

[johncrossley]

But I'm not looking to sell my house

However, that doesn't affect the economics. By not selling you are leaving money on the table. The potential profit should be added to the cost of electricity to get the effective cost of charging your car.

 

[SargeNpton]

But the value of your house has gone up as a result of the ability to charge at home, cancelling out the cheaper electricity. So whoever buys your house won't benefit from the low cost of electricity. Alternatively, you could sell your house, get a cheaper house without ability to charge and the profit will balance out the cost of public chargers.

That has nothing to do with persuading people to switch to an EV. People don't change their house to suit their car.

 

[johncrossley]

That has nothing to do with persuading people to switch to an EV. People don't change their house to suit their car.

As mentioned earlier, the ability to charge at home is (or soon will be) priced in. So it is basically a wash (or close to it).

 

[GusB]

But the value of your house has gone up as a result of the ability to charge at home, cancelling out the cheaper electricity. So whoever buys your house won't benefit from the low cost of electricity. Alternatively, you could sell your house, get a cheaper house without ability to charge and the profit will balance out the cost of public chargers.

Isn't this rather simplistic? If I want to buy a house that already has a home charger, the chances are that the house is also likely to have additional measures such as solar panels, heat pump and a home battery. I'd have to weigh up the additional premium on the house price against the cost of having those things installed. I'd also have to consider my annual mileage and how much I'd save by charging at home over using public chargers. The house price will be influenced by a whole host of other factors, too. Does a home charger attract much of a premium, if any at all?

Another small city car enters the scene - a (not quite because of UK specs) Japanese Kei car that's £19k and packed with features, as well as being very small for easy parking.

It's not a car for long-distance travel. It's quite quirky like other small cars, and some will hate it, but it is also funky enough that it could well gain quite a following.

I think it's quite cute. I'd probably look a bit silly in it, but it'd do me for the sort of journeys I currently do.

 

[The Ham]

Isn't this rather simplistic? If I want to buy a house that already has a home charger, the chances are that the house is also likely to have additional measures such as solar panels, heat pump and a home battery. I'd have to weigh up the additional premium on the house price against the cost of having those things installed. I'd also have to consider my annual mileage and how much I'd save by charging at home over using public chargers. The house price will be influenced by a whole host of other factors, too. Does a home charger attract much of a premium, if any at all?

Indeed, especially as all new homes with any form of allocated parking have to have private chargers, not just those with a driveway.

Whist that's a small percentage of all homes, it will increase the number of homes without a driveway which can charge their cars.

As such owning a driveway will still attract a premium, but not as much as it would without such chargers for new flats and terraced homes.