UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[61653 HTAFC]

I think that's a gross generalisation
Not everyone who drives BMWs is arrogant and self centred. Yes they do attract that sort but so does any German car

Teslas now seem to be the "weapon of choice" for the entitled, in my experience. There's a class of Tesla driver who relies far too much on the active cruise control, and as a result they tailgate constantly, trusting that the car will get them out of trouble.

 

[jon0844]

Teslas now seem to be the "weapon of choice" for the entitled, in my experience. There's a class of Tesla driver who relies far too much on the active cruise control, and as a result they tailgate constantly, trusting that the car will get them out of trouble.

It doesn't help that Elon lied to everyone about how good all the systems like autopilot and full self driving (with 'supervised' tagged on) were/are.

 

[Topological]

It doesn't help that Elon lied to everyone about how good all the systems like autopilot and full self driving (with 'supervised' tagged on) were/are.

An interesting question here is: "Are they actually good?" they clearly have better response times than humans and can stop the car. Just not as smoothly as we might like. So is the tailgating really evidence of a bad system?

I try hard not to use adaptive cruise. I cancel my cruise long before it gets near enough to need to brake for me.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It doesn't help that Elon lied to everyone about how good all the systems like autopilot and full self driving (with 'supervised' tagged on) were/are.

No, but anyone who trusts anything that comes out of his mouth can only have a room temperature I.Q.
Plenty of newer cars have Active Cruise Control, but it always seems to be a Takes Every Single Liberty Available who's decided to camp six inches away from my rear bumper. Must be the giant magnet that's mounted where the engine would be!

 

[Mawkie]

No, but anyone who trusts anything that comes out of his mouth can only have a room temperature I.Q.

Agreed.

who's decided to camp six inches away from my rear bumper.

I'm a fairly cautious driver, but I'm pretty sure I can't get my Tesla to drive too close to the car in front on either "Traffic Aware Cruise Control" or on "Autopilot".

I can only presume you've encountered Tesla drivers whose cars are completely under manual control. I can override the systems by pressing on the accelerator, but there is an associated warning on the screen that says "Warning - car will not brake" or something like that.

It doesn't help that Elon lied to everyone about how good all the systems like autopilot and full self driving (with 'supervised' tagged on) were/are.

I think I remember reading about an update a few weeks ago that changed "Autopilot" to "Autosteer" in the menu system. May be just in some jurisdictions.

An interesting question here is: "Are they actually good?" they clearly have better response times than humans and can stop the car. Just not as smoothly as we might like.

I find the Autosteer on motorways and A roads to be excellent, but I think that it was somewhat oversold by Tesla marketing in the early days. Once you understand the limitations of the current automated systems in the UK I think they do contribute to overall road safety.

Watching some of the YouTube videos of the Full Self Driving cars in Europe (Tesla are currently doing accompanied test drives) then it becomes quite obvious that these systems have advanced to a level where they are better than a lot (dare I say majority?) of human drivers.

 

[The Ham]

It doesn't help that Elon lied to everyone about how good all the systems like autopilot and full self driving (with 'supervised' tagged on) were/are.

Here's an example of a Tesla parking:



To be fair I suspect that it was probably driver error on this occasion and nothing to do with the automatic systems.

 

[Topological]

Here's an example of a Tesla parking:

View attachment 200824

To be fair I suspect that it was probably driver error on this occasion and nothing to do with the automatic systems.

There is also ample space. The passengers can open the doors and it avoided the trees.

I have never tested the autopark on either of my cars. Though I actually think it would struggle badly with most of the car parks I go to. I get the red warnings for too close objects in so many spaces that I use and it is only because there is a bush at the back of the space, or a roof support on part of the white line where there would be no door to open.

 

[jon0844]

Autopark is usually too slow to be any use. Unless you are testing it by finding an empty road or car park.

 

[Mawkie]

I probably had my best ever efficiency yesterday on the way to work, some local roads, and the North Circular, which was a little stop start.
I drove 15.4 miles and it used 2.2 kWh - that works out at 6.97 miles/kWh. It's amazing what difference the warmer weather makes!

For my energy costs, 2.2 kWh x 20p = 44p. Petrol costs for the same journey I would guess to be around £2.40?

For comparison, the last 2k miles over winter has averaged 244.7 Wh/miles or 4.09 miles/kWh.

 

[jon0844]

Now imagine charging at 3.49p per kWh!

 

[Mawkie]

Now imagine charging at 3.49p per kWh!

Well, yeah.

However lot of the complaints here are about people who can't (or don't want to) charge at home. So I gave my own Supercharger price for real world experience.

Even at 80p per kWh, that 6.97 miles per kWh is £1.76, which is around 30% cheaper than petrol.

Of course, in the interest of fairness (and by my own admission) not many people are consistently getting 7 miles/kWh.

There is a reason the salary sacrifice scheme has taken off at work - some staff are saving £350+ a month in fuel costs alone. Meaning the actual lease is costing them almost nothing.

 

[miami]

So an average 7,000 mile a year and 1p/mile electric vs 14p/mile petrol, that would save £900 a year.

People spending £350 a month in petrol are driving 30,000 miles a year, over 4 times the average. Insurance I'm told is higher on electric cars too, and so is maintenance in what I've paid for -- tyres, suspension, a wing mirror that got knocked off, a chip in the windscreen being the bulk of the costs I've spent over the last 3 years

I looked at salary sacrifice. I'm in the 60% bracket thanks to the child tax, so you'd think it would be a no brainer as it more than halves the cost, but even after the tax break (which is going away) it still came out over £3500 a year. That's three times what I spend in fuel, insurance, tax and getting through the MOT, and still over £1k more expensive than if I included the entire cost of the car.

If the choice is between some new £50k petrol car and an electric car then sure electric makes sense. If you're driving tens of thousands of miles then maybe it makes sense.

The marginal cost of cars is far too low, the fixed cost of cars is far too high.

This means people with cars are encouraged to drive as much as possible. Why would I spend £70 on a train trip to Leeds when the car costs just £25 in petrol and £5.50 to park.

I'd far rather see them get rid of VED and add 3p/mile to electric cars and 30p/litre to petrol. Even if they did that though it would only mean the car costs £30 in petrol. Hell doubling petrol prices to £3 a litre would still mean it's cheaper to drive - and thats with just one passenger. A family of four going to the panto at christmas on train was £30, by car £6, plus £5 parking.

Not only does it save 3 hours in time by driving, it also saves £20, because the marginal cost of cars is so low (compared to the alternative). Shaving £5 off the petrol cost by using electric would be fine, but only if it offsets the added fixed costs.

 

[Mawkie]

So an average 7,000 mile a year and 1p/mile electric vs 14p/mile petrol, that would save £900 a year.

So someone driving from Peterborough into London every day would be spending £4500 on fuel......

Or £380 a month.

 

[miami]

At 5 times the usage of the average car user that would be a massive outlier. And at 40,000 miles a year, their car is deprecating by £10k a year.

1p/mile electric plus 3p/mile tax means they're saving £3k a year over petrol, stlll a pretty small portion of the total cost of ownership

 

[jon0844]

At 5 times the usage of the average car user that would be a massive outlier. And at 40,000 miles a year, their car is deprecating by £10k a year.

1p/mile electric plus 3p/mile tax means they're saving £3k a year over petrol, stlll a pretty small portion of the total cost of ownership

Do we need to look at cars costing £50k? Even if you need a large family car they can be had for a lot less, and it's quite possible to get a nearly new EV for a significant discount (although right now I wonder if demand for EVs is lifting second hand values?).

 

[bspahh]

Great to see that in a few years time, there are going to be some extremely good cars for under £10k on the second hand market (if not sooner). Nice to see a similar clip design to the Dacia Spring, which allows you to customise the interior (and boot) with clips, lights, holders and more.

It also means that young people now have first car options for EVs, and the funky look and customisation will be most appealing (and despite the low cost, this car is packed with features that one could have only dreamt of years ago on a basic A-segment car).

The Dacia Spring is a nice car (perfect for city driving) but was quite cramped and doesn't have the movable seats like the Twingo where you can take people in relative comfort or do the big weekly shop the next when on your own. The 0-30 time also means it's ideal for cities and you're not going to get caught out when pulling out from a side road or onto a busy roundabout.

You can get a pre-registered 2025 Dacia Spring with a 75 registration number and delivery miles for £9190

Used Dacia Spring 27kWh Expression 65 48kW 5dr Auto Electric Hatchback for Sale | Vertu Motors

www.vertumotors.com

 

[The Ham]

Second hand EV's coming down in value does lead to the question how much longer will it be useful for young people to learn to drive a manual?

Current 17 years olds, almost certainly would need to do a manual test, current 12 year olds (turning 17 in 2031) could probably not bother if they wanted an easier time to pass but have parents with EV charging where they live but current 8 year olds or younger (turning 17 in 2035) could almost not bother (again depending on EV charging capabilities at home).

They would ruin the risk of what happens when they move out to somewhere without a charger?

However, if petrol prices stay fairly high then the cost of going somewhere to charge so might be cheaper than filling up with petrol (until recently it was a similar price, so if the second hand car is about what they'd pay for an EV or an ICE it's unlikely to make a lot of difference, especially if they pop to their parents and charge for free - the old jokes about students returning home to get their washing done may change to charge their car!).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Second hand EV's coming down in value does lead to the question how much longer will it be useful for young people to learn to drive a manual?

Current 17 years olds, almost certainly would need to do a manual test, current 12 year olds (turning 17 in 2031) could probably not bother if they wanted an easier time to pass but have parents with EV charging where they live but current 8 year olds or younger (turning 17 in 2035) could almost not bother (again depending on EV charging capabilities at home).

They would ruin the risk of what happens when they move out to somewhere without a charger?

However, if petrol prices stay fairly high then the cost of going somewhere to charge so might be cheaper than filling up with petrol (until recently it was a similar price, so if the second hand car is about what they'd pay for an EV or an ICE it's unlikely to make a lot of difference, especially if they pop to their parents and charge for free - the old jokes about students returning home to get their washing done may change to charge their car!).

Wouldn't even need to disturb the parents. Surely it can all be done from outside ?.

 

[Bald Rick]

Second hand EV's coming down in value does lead to the question how much longer will it be useful for young people to learn to drive a manual?

Mine have learnt automatic only.

 

[The Ham]

Wouldn't even need to disturb the parents. Surely it can all be done from outside ?.

Depends on the wall box, some you have to approve by app, so if they already have the app and are signed in then yes, but otherwise they may still may need to get approval (depends on how much of a gatekeeper the parents are - especially if there's multiple cars and/or overnight tariffs).

 

[jon0844]

Second hand EV's coming down in value does lead to the question how much longer will it be useful for young people to learn to drive a manual?

This video appeared in my feed yesterday and it's good to see that you can pick up a mostly solid, reliable (as it appeared to me), car with a reasonable range for a town or city - for banger-like money.

Bar the mould inside, which could be rectified, it seems the car was in good condition and if you got one cheap enough, it is also possible to refurbish Leaf batteries or even replace them with a larger pack for a reasonable amount of money (buy a replacement pack and hand back yours to be refurbished).. but it seems that as it is, this car would be perfect for a lot of people (including new or young drivers*) and probably pretty reliable.

We hear about the key workers who can't afford anything more than a banger, but this is almost certainly going to be a lower risk than an ICE car of a similar age and mileage.

* This particular car does IMO look pretty hideous on the outside some new, young, drivers might refuse to be seen in one - but there will be other cheap cars like this soon enough.

 

[The Ham]

This video appeared in my feed yesterday and it's good to see that you can pick up a mostly solid, reliable (as it appeared to me), car with a reasonable range for a town or city - for banger-like money.

Bar the mould inside, which could be rectified, it seems the car was in good condition and if you got one cheap enough, it is also possible to refurbish Leaf batteries or even replace them with a larger pack for a reasonable amount of money (buy a replacement pack and hand back yours to be refurbished).. but it seems that as it is, this car would be perfect for a lot of people (including new or young drivers*) and probably pretty reliable.

We hear about the key workers who can't afford anything more than a banger, but this is almost certainly going to be a lower risk than an ICE car of a similar age and mileage.

* This particular car does IMO look pretty hideous on the outside some new, young, drivers might refuse to be seen in one - but there will be other cheap cars like this soon enough.

A cheap ICE can soon be anything but cheap if you need to replace a cam belt, and even though they are much more efficient than they were 30 years ago fuel prices between the two have a noticeable gap.

As I've said to friends the big things which will need maintenance on an EV will be the air filters, tyres, the brakes and the battery (not that one, the 12 volt one) and are all things which you have on a ICE. There's no spark plugs, oil filters, oil changes, and the like. Whilst some may joke about an EV needing to be turned off and on again like a computer to fix it, there's also a lot of computing in all cars these days so that's going to be the same (although to a slightly lesser amount for an ICE car) in all new cars.

 

[jon0844]

All the computer stuff just waiting to go wrong (or stop getting updates so connected services may be discontinued) will probably make cars like the Dacia Spring ideal choices for the future.

But getting one of those for a grand is probably still a way off, unlike the Leaf.

 

[pdq]

Whilst some may joke about an EV needing to be turned off and on again like a computer to fix it, there's also a lot of computing in all cars these days so that's going to be the same (although to a slightly lesser amount for an ICE car) in all new cars.

Indeed. My previous Skoda was petrol and had numerous issues with the technology, often needing a switch off and back on just to get things like the heater to work. Conversely, my current Kia EV has been faultless.

 

[Shrop]

Whilst some may joke about an EV needing to be turned off and on again like a computer to fix it, there's also a lot of computing in all cars these days so that's going to be the same (although to a slightly lesser amount for an ICE car) in all new cars.

Automated systems in cars have a lot to answer for.

As retirees, my wife and I have managed very well with one car for some years, supplementing our car use with our free bus passes. Also, with my love for walking, I’ve been happy to walk two miles (each way, along very quiet country lanes) to use our nearest rail station on many occasions. However, here’s the thing about automated car systems.

During 2025 we inherited my mother’s 12 year old Fiat Panda when, after many months of trying and numerous scare stories involving near misses, we (plus friends and other family members) finally persuaded her that her driving was no longer safe. We’ve since used it many times just because it’s there, and also so that my mother feels that it is being valued, however it had an issue.

The engine management light had been coming on intermittently, eventually leading to complete loss of power, but after stopping and re-starting the engine, it ran perfectly again for a good few more miles. Our local garage found it difficult to diagnose the fault, and eventually replaced the electrics for the warning system, which actually cleared the problem.

The conclusion was that the car and the engine were fine, it was simply the faulty warning system which was causing the problem, not the car itself. So it’s a long way from happening just to newer and high end cars with complex automatic systems, our Fiat Panda at 12 years old proves the point.

So when it comes to questions about relying on automated systems to slow down or stop when traffic requires it, it would be foolish to depend on the in-car systems, and yet many people seem to. Electric cars have many plus points, but they have many shortcomings too, not least with their marketing which is often biased and unrealistic. And I say this with our main car being an excellent PHEV.

Realistically, electric cars will never be 100% reliable for a good many driving purposes. Their inbuilt systems will only ever be aids to what has to remain a human function.

 

[Mawkie]

Automated systems in cars have a lot to answer for.

As retirees, my wife and I have managed very well with one car for some years, supplementing our car use with our free bus passes. Also, with my love for walking, I’ve been happy to walk two miles (each way, along very quiet country lanes) to use our nearest rail station on many occasions. However, here’s the thing about automated car systems.

During 2025 we inherited my mother’s 12 year old Fiat Panda when, after many months of trying and numerous scare stories involving near misses, we (plus friends and other family members) finally persuaded her that her driving was no longer safe. We’ve since used it many times just because it’s there, and also so that my mother feels that it is being valued, however it had an issue.

The engine management light had been coming on intermittently, eventually leading to complete loss of power, but after stopping and re-starting the engine, it ran perfectly again for a good few more miles. Our local garage found it difficult to diagnose the fault, and eventually replaced the electrics for the warning system, which actually cleared the problem.

The conclusion was that the car and the engine were fine, it was simply the faulty warning system which was causing the problem, not the car itself. So it’s a long way from happening just to newer and high end cars with complex automatic systems, our Fiat Panda at 12 years old proves the point.

The moral of this story seems to be a 12 year old, little used car, had a routine fault, got diagnosed and had a part replaced. What did I miss?

So when it comes to questions about relying on automated systems to slow down or stop when traffic requires it, it would be foolish to depend on the in-car systems, and yet many people seem to.

And yet, many people do rely on them, and they appear to be saving lives all over the world on a daily basis.

Realistically, electric cars will never be 100% reliable for a good many driving purposes.

Realistically, nothing mechanical can be assumed to be 100% reliable - particularly without routine maintenance. But I would place my bet on an EV being more reliable than ICE - there's just so little to go wrong.

 

[The Ham]

Automated systems in cars have a lot to answer for.

As retirees, my wife and I have managed very well with one car for some years, supplementing our car use with our free bus passes. Also, with my love for walking, I’ve been happy to walk two miles (each way, along very quiet country lanes) to use our nearest rail station on many occasions. However, here’s the thing about automated car systems.

During 2025 we inherited my mother’s 12 year old Fiat Panda when, after many months of trying and numerous scare stories involving near misses, we (plus friends and other family members) finally persuaded her that her driving was no longer safe. We’ve since used it many times just because it’s there, and also so that my mother feels that it is being valued, however it had an issue.

The engine management light had been coming on intermittently, eventually leading to complete loss of power, but after stopping and re-starting the engine, it ran perfectly again for a good few more miles. Our local garage found it difficult to diagnose the fault, and eventually replaced the electrics for the warning system, which actually cleared the problem.

The conclusion was that the car and the engine were fine, it was simply the faulty warning system which was causing the problem, not the car itself. So it’s a long way from happening just to newer and high end cars with complex automatic systems, our Fiat Panda at 12 years old proves the point.

So when it comes to questions about relying on automated systems to slow down or stop when traffic requires it, it would be foolish to depend on the in-car systems, and yet many people seem to. Electric cars have many plus points, but they have many shortcomings too, not least with their marketing which is often biased and unrealistic. And I say this with our main car being an excellent PHEV.

Realistically, electric cars will never be 100% reliable for a good many driving purposes. Their inbuilt systems will only ever be aids to what has to remain a human function.

We had a similar fault with our Fiat Panda of a similar age, it turned out to be a wiring fault, but only a loose cable but was annoying to diagnose.

Actually for us, and problems at had with a second hand car we brought, these were trains for us to swap to an EV.

 

[Shrop]

The moral of this story seems to be a 12 year old, little used car, had a routine fault, got diagnosed and had a part replaced. What did I miss?

The point was that the car didn't have a fault at all, it was the diagnostics system that caused it to fail unnecessarily.

And yet, many people do rely on them, and they appear to be saving lives all over the world on a daily basis.

Yes, no disagreement there at all. My point was that these systems are an aid, they're not there to completely take over.

Realistically, nothing mechanical can be assumed to be 100% reliable - particularly without routine maintenance. But I would place my bet on an EV being more reliable than ICE - there's just so little to go wrong.

No argument there either, my concern was only about an over-reliance on systems, which some people do. Driving will always require human awareness, just that sometimes electric cars are presented as being so intelligent that some people forget this.

 

[Bald Rick]

The engine management light had been coming on intermittently, eventually leading to complete loss of power, but after stopping and re-starting the engine, it ran perfectly again for a good few more miles. Our local garage found it difficult to diagnose the fault, and eventually replaced the electrics for the warning system, which actually cleared the problem.

The conclusion was that the car and the engine were fine, it was simply the faulty warning system which was causing the problem, not the car itself. So it’s a long way from happening just to newer and high end cars with complex automatic systems, our Fiat Panda at 12 years old proves the point.

I had the same with my 1985 Fiat Uno. It is not a new problem.

 

[jon0844]

The point was that the car didn't have a fault at all, it was the diagnostics system that caused it to fail unnecessarily.

It did have a fault. A fault that was fixed. Cars need diagnostic systems and this time part of it failed.